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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 05 2005,19:00) Quote (david @ Sep. 05 2005,07:13) So you're saying Nick, that the kingdom is “within us” and “among us.”
It's also something we “enter.”That last thing you said, Jesus submitting the Kingdom to his Father; what exactly is it he is submitting?
Hi d,
Lk 17.20f
“…'The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say 'Look, here it is'
or
'There it is'
for behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst”The coming King, the Son of God, was already among them. The Son was to be born into them [Gal 3.19] by the Spirit of Christ after Christ returned to heaven and the Spirit was sent. We are told that the Spirit must control our lives[Gal 5.25].
That is the kingdom within us.
That submission and obedience makes us servants of God. We serve the King. The kingdom has begun in men from Pentecost till now and the servants of God are ready to reign with him.
Nick……….how about that i found one i can AMEN You brother ON.love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
David…..> i know this physical thing is a big deal with the JW”s , but stop and think this outward Physical Kingdom is the result of what going on inside a person in the thousand year its really only in Jesus and the Saints, evil is removed from the earth and so naturally only the good remains under the influence of Jesus and the Saints. So the kingdom that in Jesus and the Saints are naturally followed , until the thousand years are up , then look out.
peace and love to you and yours brother……………………gene
Gene, either you simply don't read any of my posts, or you do, but just can't answer any of my questions for some reason.
Which is it?
Because if you don't read my posts, I shall stop reading yours.
But if it is that you just can't answer my questions because they show your error, I understand.Once again, Gene:
This thread is called: “The Kingdom of God–What is it”?
Quote Gene, I have one more question. I hate to ask it. (Why is it you completely refuse to even entertain the idea of answering a single question I ask?) This thread is called: “The Kingdom of God–What is it”?
Gene, if you don't even know what God's kingdom is scripturely, how are you to imitate Jesus and preach about it? Surely you must know what it is. Yet, you refuse to answer this question. So I'm not so sure you do know.
“The government shall be upon his shoulder.” (Is 9:6; American Standard Version)
Does the Bible actually speak of God’s Kingdom as being a government?
ISAIAH 9:6,7 (Revised Standard Version)
“To us a child is born, to us a son is given; and THE GOVERNMENT will be upon his shoulder . . .Of the increase of HIS GOVERNMENT and of peace there will be no end.”Interesting. The government is upon his shoulder, not in his heart. hmmmm. I think that's just figuratively meant that he would carry the weight of this government.
GOD’S KINGDOM CRUSHES OTHER KINGDOMS AND BRINGS TO NOTHING ALL HUMAN GOVERNMENTS.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”Unlike human governments, this kingdom “cannot be shaken.” (Heb 12:28)
Of course, a government needs rulers.
LUKE 22:28-30
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table IN MY KINGDOM, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”Modern Bibles rely on tradition less and less and are translating Luke 17:21 in a way that fits in with the context of the scripture and with the other hundreds of uses of the word “kingdom.”
The word “kingdom” is used in the Bible some 366 times or so. In almost every one of those instances it is fairly obvious that the kingdom mentioned (whether a human government, or God's kingdom) isn't something that is in the hearts of the wicked pharisees whom Jesus called hypocrites, and offspring of vipers.
First 7 Examples:
-And the beginning of his kingdom came to be Ba′bel and E′rech
-in that you have brought upon me and my kingdom a great sin
-And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation
-His king also will be higher than A′gag, And his kingdom will be lifted up.
-the son of Joseph, the kingdom of Si′hon the king of the Am′or·ites and the kingdom of Og the king of
–and Ed′re·i, the cities of the kingdom of Og in Ba′shan.
–And the rest of Gil′e·ad and all Ba′shan of the kingdom of Og
etc, etc.We see literally hundreds of scriptures like this, that speak of human kingdoms as being governments.
And we have many many other scriptures that speak of God's kingdom as being a government.And we have one scripture that you have to twist so it conflicts with what Jesus said about the pharisees.
To focus on the latter and ignore the rest and ignore the many questions I've asked and the multitudes of scripture I've asked about is plainly showing where you stand on the importance of scripture in your beliefs.
David………The problem is you are stuck looking at the (EFFECT) of the Kingdom , not the (CAUSE) of it. Your not realizing all Kingdoms have a (CAUSE) and that CAUSE is what makes up the Kingdom. YOU need to get your eyes off the Physical and Start realizing the Spiritual causes of the Kingdom of God , it is (NOT SEEN WITH THE EYES) it is SPIRIT. Even the Kingdom today are (CAUSED) by SPIRIT Forces working in the minds of man. The simple meaning of a Kingdom is Where the (WILL OF THE KING IS DONE) and where that takes place is where that kingdom is. GOD is Spirit and rules in the Heart and minds and therefore His kingdom is greater the all kingdoms. I full well know a kingdom is the product of a king and the kingdom of GOD is the product of GOD Himself, and will rule on earth as well as it is in Heaven Now. Jesus Plainly said (THY KINGDOM COME) how by (THY WILL BEING DONE) in earth as in heaven. You see David it all about the (WILL) of the KING being DONE. So is there a physical manifestation of that Kingdom Yes , but without it being it the heart and minds of People there is then no real rule. You are looking on the outside of the Cup, but not seeing the inside of it. IMO
love and peace to you and yours……………………gene
Gb,
What are these spirit forces that work inside the minds of foolish men?
You must first enter the kingdom for the king to call you his subject.Nick………you real nature is coming out more and more, are you accusing me of having a mind of a fool Nick. And what makes you think i am not a subject of the kingdom.
peace and love………………..gene
GB,
Does the intellect of any man approach the wisdom of God?Prov3
5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Quote David………The problem is you are stuck looking at the (EFFECT) of the Kingdom , not the (CAUSE) of it. No, Gene. I have hundreds of scriptures that show the effect, none of which I have posted yet. I am looking at WHAT THE KINGDOM IS. I believe it is a “government” as the scriptures repeatedly bear out.
You, I'm not sure what you actually believe it is. I've asked. But to no avail.
Quote Your not realizing all Kingdoms have a (CAUSE) and that CAUSE is what makes up the Kingdom. Is a “cause” what makes up the kingdom? You say it's a cause that makes up the kingdom (No scriptures.)
I say it's people that make up the kingdom. And so does the Bible.
REVELATION 1:6
“and HE MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”
REVELATION 5:9,10:
“you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and YOU MADE THEM TO BE A KINGDOM and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”Quote YOU need to get your eyes off the Physical and Start realizing the Spiritual causes of the Kingdom of God, it is (NOT SEEN WITH THE EYES) it is SPIRIT. Even the Kingdom today are (CAUSED) by SPIRIT Forces working in the minds of man. God is the ultimate “cause” of the “kingdom of God.” He is ultimately the one behind it. But he's appointed his son to rule with “joint heirs” of the kingdom.
And no, of course we can't see God. But WE'RE NOT DISCUSSING WHAT GOD IS. WE'RE DISCUSSING WHAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS. IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, JUST TELL ME. I'LL PROVIDE SOME SCRIPTURES.Quote The simple meaning of a Kingdom is Where the (WILL OF THE KING IS DONE) and where that takes place is where that kingdom is. So,
“a Kingdom” is: “Where the will of the king is done.”
So, you think the kingdom is a place. You use the word “where” 3 times in your definition.
“a Kingdom is WHERE the (WILL OF THE KING IS DONE) and WHERE that takes place is WHERE that kingdom is.So, we've located the where. A kingdom in your opinion is any PLACE where the will of the king is done.
But my question is “what” is the kingdom. That's the thread title.
Gene, “what” do you actually think it is?A kingdom “is” [blank]……..
Quote I full well know a kingdom is the product of a king and the kingdom of GOD is the product of GOD Himself,
Sure, God is the cause. And as said before, God is invisible. God is also the cause of the universe, and everything.Quote Jesus Plainly said (THY KINGDOM COME) how by (THY WILL BEING DONE) in earth as in heaven. You see David it all about the (WILL) of the KING being DONE. SO WHAT DID HE MEAN when he told us to pray for God's kingdom to come, and for God's will to be done on earth as in heaven?
What does the coming of God's kingdom (government) mean for the earth?Quote Yes , but without it being it the heart and minds of People there is then no real rule.
I think I'm going to find you all the scriptures about God's “spirit” that you're speaking about and contrast them with the kingdom scriptures (government scriptures).Gene, I'm wondering if you have scriptures that show what you assert?
Gene, I've been looking back at your posts. I had to go back 15 of your posts to find any mention of a scripture. It was Mat 13:25.
If you cannot back up what you say with scripture, how can we be sure these are not just your ideas?
David when others posted the scriptures about the kingdom of GOD out of Jesus mouth you said it (really) didn't say that . so don't try to use that for a cover up or to imply i Don't understand scriptures. What good is it to post something and you change it to meet you doctrines as Nick does also. Any can parrot scripture , but understanding it is another thing. The kingdom of GOD is within you and does not come to you with outside observation. A King Rules HIS KINGDOM and GOD Rules His KINGDOM in the HEART and MINDS not outside of it. Again you keep describing the effects not the CAUSE. Which is where the real KING RULES. “For the flesh profits (Nothing) get you mind off the Physical and turn to the Spiritual. Make the cup clean inside first and the outside appearance will reflect it. Even so is the Kingdom of GOD.
The JW send out there tracts and book of this wonderful Kingdom where animals and mankind are in perfect harmony, never even realizing it's only because the FATHER has removed evil from the earth, for a thousand years, as soon as it is reintroduced the Happy utopia minded People turn wicked and go against the SAINTS and JESUS, and God has to bring fire down from Heaven to stop them from trying to Kill Jesus and the Saints. This is what is meant by “and they shall wear out the Saints of the Most High.” How do you tell people who are doing everything right they need to be saved by the indwelling of the FATHER. So all the teaching of Jesus and the Saints were for only to prove one Point , That GOD must be ruling IN YOU always. or as soon as evil come you will turn to it. God Simply proves that point in the Millennium .
David contrary what you have been taught , the KINGDOM of GOD must be in YOU, And it comes (NOT) with observation. Just as Jesus said.
love and peace to you and yours………………………gene
Quote David when others posted the scriptures about the kingdom of GOD out of Jesus mouth you said it (really) didn't say that . so don't try to use that for a cover up or to imply i Don't understand scriptures. Listen, Gene. I'm using hundreds of scriptures to explain one scripture.
You're only looking at one scripture and closing your eyes to the other 300.
As for the scripture you're discussing (Luke 17:20,21) if you check modern translations, they've corrected the error. And many of the older ones have footnotes that explain it can be translated more than one way.
So, because of this, we need to look at other scriptures to explain this one. That is what I have been doing.Quote What good is it to post something and you change it to meet you doctrines as Nick does also.
LOOK AROUND GENE. CHECK OUT YOUR PAST 15 POSTS (16 NOW, ACTUALLY). YOU'RE NOT USING SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP WHAT YOU SAY.Do you consider a person out of line to ask for scripture to back up what you believe?
Here's the difference between us. I can also quote Luke 17:20,21 from 15 Bible's that translate it “in your midst” or “among you.”
But, the difference is, I can use other scriptures to demonstrate why that is indeed the correct translation.YOU…… CANNOT.
All you have is your one scripture, which you hardly even bother to quote. And you have much discussion about what is the “holy spirit” that must reside in God's followers.
(There are many many scriptures that say this–none of which you've quoted.) But they don't use the word “kingdom.” They use the word “spirit.”)TIME AND AGAIN IN THIS THREAD AND OTHERS, I've asked you to quote from scriptures. Sometimes you do use bits and pieces, but you never quote what the scripture actually is. (ie: “Matthew 12:2”)
So, even when you do think you're using scripture, it's hard to check.Quote Any can parrot scripture
True, and I am one of those people who can supply scripture to back up my beliefs.
But it takes a certain kind of skill to completely avoid those same scriptures and I am not as skilled as some others are in this.Quote A King Rules HIS KINGDOM and GOD Rules His KINGDOM in the HEART and MINDS not outside of it. So, you're saying generally speaking, even, that kings rule their kingdoms in the hearts and minds of people. Those kingdoms exist in people's hearts, you're saying.
Sure….you can get all poetic or philisophical and say a government such as the U.S. government exists in the hearts of the U.S. citizens. But of course, we know the U.S. government is made up of real people. And those people are not really inside of other people.Quote The JW send out there tracts and book of this wonderful Kingdom where animals and mankind are in perfect harmony, never even realizing it's only because the FATHER has removed evil from the earth, for a thousand years,
Uh…ya, we know this. Thanks for the update. But, of course, I should mention, those pictures are not “the kingdom” as you say. Those pictures are of the effects of the kingdom. The kingdom is a heavenly government.Quote This is what is meant by “and they shall wear out the Saints of the Most High.”
Yay, a scrpture. I wish I could check this, but it would be so much faster if you'd just include the name of the scripture.Quote So all the teaching of Jesus and the Saints were for only to prove one Point , That GOD must be ruling IN YOU always. Gene…
….
…
Is “God” the “kingdom”?
Or is it “God's kingdom” or the “kingdom of God”?
I wish you'd just quote the actual scriptures that speak about “God” (not the kingdom) dwelling in people or the many many scriptures that speak of God's holy spirit residing in people.
Then, I could show you that the words you are speaking of are “God” or “holy spirit” and not “kingdom.”
But, you refuse to quote any scriptures.Quote David contrary what you have been taught , the KINGDOM of GOD must be in YOU, And it comes (NOT) with observation. Just as Jesus said. Well, just as it says in the KJ or the New KJ.
MODERN Bibles tend to translate it more correctly, given the context:
(This is not a complete list of course, but just the ones from the Bible-gateway site and a few others I stumbled upon while doing research)
“The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (New World Translation)
“For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (NASB)
“Because God's kingdom is already among you.” (The Message)
“For the Kingdom of God is already among you.[a]” (New Living)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”[a] (English Standard)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Darby Translation)
“the kingdom of God is among you.” (holman)
“God's kingdom is among you.” (New International readers version)
“because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” [a] (todays new international version)
“The kingdom of God is among you” (The New English Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (The Jerusalem Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (Revised Standard Version)
“God’s royal majesty is among you.” (The Emphatic Diaglott)*****
I can just as easily say to you as you are to me, that the above is what Jesus said.
The difference is, I can use other scriptures and the context to back up what I believe.Each of your posts to me looks the same:
–Some reference to “JW's” to imply that I'm just following them.
–Some reference to “God” or “God's spirit” dwelling inside of people. (Not the kingdom)
–You saying that Jesus said 'the KINGDOM of GOD must be in YOU'
–you, not answering any question I've asked (with the possible exception of “what is the kingdom” except you only told me that it was a place, and didn't really tell me “what” it was.)
–you, not using other scriptures to back up this belief.Gene, here is why I like quoting scriptures, in full, with the name. It seems that you tend to take 2 or 3 words from a scripture and string it together with 2 or 3 more words from another scripture and don't tell us what these scriptures are.In the above post, you say: “i Don't understand scriptures.”
Of course, that's not your full sentence, and so you see how taking just a few words isn't that helpful. We like to double check things, by using OTHER SCRIPTURES and by CHECKING THE SCRIPTURE OUR SELF.
david
Gene, I know you won't answer this, but, I'm still waiting for you to tell me WHAT you think the kingdom is. You say it is a place, essentially, where God rules.
But how does that fit in with the vast majority of scriptures that speak of God's kingdom as a real government?
ie: Dan 2:44?
Is it a place that is going to “crush” all human governments?
David…..its where GOD rules obliviously. It in the heart and minds of His subject. Simple nothing difficult, and it agree with what Jesus said also as I and others have quoted. Here is something for you think about ,”and from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence, and the violent take it by force”, the kingdom of God is preached ,. David what are the violent taking with force. is it not the kingdom of heaven. So then where is it. Is it ever where (NO) its just in the hearts and minds of it's subjects, the children of the kingdom. It in their hearts and minds.
peace and love…………………..gene
peace and love…………………..gene
Gene, on Jan 3d, you said this:
The physical (KINGDOM) you speak of will only become a reality for everyone when the Kingdom inside takes place.
First, nowhere does scripture differentiate two kingdoms of God. So, there is no need to put the word “physical” in front of the word kingdom.
Secondly, SCRIPTURE IS ONCE AGAIN AGAINST YOU.
DANIEL 7:22
“until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself.”****Contrary to your statement, there is a “definite time” when the holy ones (saints) take possession of the kingdom.****
Why is it that all you can do is repeat “the kingdom is within” but can't use a single other scripture besides Luke 17:21 to back it up? It seems most everything you say contradicts other scriptures.
I'm actually wanting comments from people other than Gene:
Quote WHAT IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD? Anyone? I'm wondering what others think it is.
Scriptures would be nice.
Quote Hi david,
If a kingdom does not include hearts and minds how secure is it?Who said it didn't? Did I? No. What I said was: Hundreds of scriptures plainly show that God's kingdom is a government, made up of Jesus and the holy ones.
Anyway, Nick, my question, which you failed to answer was: WHAT IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD?
Surely, this topic is extremely important and central to the Christian faith. You must know what God's kingdom is.
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