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Quote (david @ Jan. 09 2009,16:50) Quote Hi David: Are you saying that the kingdom of God does not exist now?
No.
Quote The King is on his throne now, and those whom he has put in authority in the church are ruling with him here on earth now. We the church are his subjects. 94, I'm simply saying that the kingdom of God does not exist in the hearts of the pharisees.
Do you think it does? Is “the king” along with his joint heirs, “those whom he has put in authority” (ie: the kingdom) in the hearts of the pharisees? What do you think?
No David, the kingdom of God is not in the hearts of the Pharisees. It is the kingdom of the other guy. If that is what you are saying, then I agree.Quote David……..You can switch scripture around if you want to, But to me it makes perfect sense the way its written, Wrong. If it made perfect sense to you, then you could explain it, and answer my questions.
1. Is the kingdom of God in the hearts of the pharisees, those Jesus was addressing?
(The answer is obviously “no” and hence, you misunderstand that scripture, the only scripture you use to defend your belief. And you ignore all the others.)
Gene, you had said:
Quote because the Kingdom of GOD is WITHIN and it wasn't in those people , BUT IT WAS IN JESUS AND THE SAINTS,
Yet, the many scriptures I quoted (and it seems I'm the only one discussing actual scripture) shows that Jesus and the saints ARE THE KINGDOM.
Yet, you won't address that and seem blind to all those scriptures. I think I'm starting to know why.Jesus once said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted.” (Mt 13:11)
If someone refuses to answer obvious questions that show their error
and ignore the vast majority of scriptures which show one thing, only to stick to their one scripture which logically they are either
(1) misunderstanding or (2) the kingdom of God is in the hearts of the very people Jesus condemned to Gehenna, then that makes me think that they really don't know what God's kingdom is at all.Quote David……..You can switch scripture around if you want to
I'm not switching scripture around. I'm the only one using scripture….and plenty of it, and it all says the same thing. (Which you ignore)
People tend to think the KJ was penned by God and everything else is a copy of it. The KJ was written 1600 years after God inspired the Greek scriptures. Just as many versions of the Bible say “in your midst” or “among you” as say “within you.”Jesus, the king, was within them, within a group of people, among them, in their midst.
Quote the Kingdom of GOD is Within a person and it does not come with (PHYSICAL SEEING) It is with in Where your mind is.
Even if that scritpure should be translated “within you” (which context plainly shows it shouldn't) how do you reconcile this with the other 99.9% of scriptures speaking of the kingdom as an actual government?Why avoid commenting on these scriptures?
Quote God's WILL is where His kingdom is.
The things you are saying do remind me of eastern religions. Maybe Nick was onto something.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090103053728AAgtIjE
Notice that the person here who asks this question is concerned about a threat of eastern forms of meditation.
But that is not why many understand that this verse should be translated as “in your midst.”
It is because of
1. who Jesus was speaking to and
2. the vast majority of scripture that conflicts with that translation.
both of which you ignore.I really think you're confusing God's holy spirit which does reside in people, with his kingdom.
A few hundred years after Jesus, people got tired of waiting around for this kingdom and started to say the church was the kingdom or that the kingdom was within. But this wasn't scriptural.
Quote The kingdom of GOD has to be withing you or it could never control you,
Which scripture says the kingdom is controlling me?Quote In fact Jesus said flesh and blood can not enter into the kingdom of GOD, why is that DAVID if what Jesus said is true then, We must see the kingdom different then Physical. I'm going to actually answer your question. (If you could attempt the same, that would be good.)
True, flesh and blood cannot entire the “HEAVENLY kingdom,” for it is heavenly. It is made up of PEOPLE, people, who have been “bought from the earth.”
Please respond to any of the many scriptures I've quoted.
REVELATION 1:6
“and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.”REVELATION 5:9,10:
“You [Jesus Christ] were slaughtered and with your blood you BOUGHT PERSONS FOR GOD out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you MADE THEM TO BE A KINGDOM and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”At Revelation 14:1-3 these “BOUGHT FROM THE EARTH” to be rulers with the Lamb are said to be on heavenly Mount Zion.
We won't see these people in heaven, just as we don't see the angels in heaven.
1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.”
Those who go to heaven to rule as kings and priests (those who make up this kingdom) will not be flesh and blood.
So, there is your answer. Could you please answer some of my questions?david.
Let's take this slow.
Quote because the Kingdom of GOD is WITHIN and it wasn't in those people , BUT IT WAS IN JESUS AND THE SAINTS, –gene
Gene, are there any scriptures that say Jesus and the saints ARE the kingdom?
(This is a yes or no question). Just a “yes” or “no” would be ok. Thankyou.
David……….Jesus was not telling the Pharisees the kingdom of God was in (THEM) He was saying the Kingdom of GOD doesn't come with observation or outward appearance because it was within a person. You keep mixing up the Kings in a Kingdom with the kingdom itself. There is a Kingdom of Christ, which He went and received and will come as King of that Kingdom, this is the physical Kingdom on earth where the Evil is removed from the earth for a thousand years, and the Saints will rule with him on earth. But that is the Kingdom of Christ and at the end He turns it over to GOD the Father and becomes subject to Him. Your mixing up the Kingdom of Christ and the Saints with the kingdom of GOD. When Christ turns it over what does it say, That GOD MAY BE IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL. That my friend is the rule of GOD (IN) all and THROUGH (ALL)> God rules in the mind and hearts of HIS subjects. HIS Kingdom is SPIRITUAL and you can't see SPIRIT. No man has seen God at ANY TIME according to Jesus.
Common sense would tell you that the only God could possible rule (ALL) is to be withing them ALL. I know this goes against one of the WJ”S greatest tents but none the less it is true. IMO.
love and peace to you…………………………….gene
Quote Your mixing up the Kingdom of Christ and the Saints with the kingdom of GOD. Why don't you show me the scriptures that differentiate the two.
Why don't you show me any scriptures.
Also, you say:
Quote You keep mixing up the Kings in a Kingdom with the kingdom itself. I'm sorry Gene, but what do the following scriptures say: The kings (rulers) are what make up the kingdom:
REVELATION 1:6
“and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father”REVELATION 5:9,10:
“and you MADE THEM TO BE A KINGDOM and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings.”Far from being something that a person has in his heart, God’s Kingdom is a real, operating government having a ruler (and co-rulers) and subjects. It is a heavenly government, for it is called both “the kingdom of the heavens” and “the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 13:11; Luke 8:10)
Quote (david @ Jan. 10 2009,17:10) Quote Your mixing up the Kingdom of Christ and the Saints with the kingdom of GOD. Why don't you show me the scriptures that differentiate the two.
Why don't you show me any scriptures.
Also, you say:
Quote You keep mixing up the Kings in a Kingdom with the kingdom itself. I'm sorry Gene, but what do the following scriptures say: The kings (rulers) are what make up the kingdom:
REVELATION 1:6
“and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father”REVELATION 5:9,10:
“and you MADE THEM TO BE A KINGDOM and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings.”Far from being something that a person has in his heart, God’s Kingdom is a real, operating government having a ruler (and co-rulers) and subjects. It is a heavenly government, for it is called both “the kingdom of the heavens” and “the kingdom of God.” (Matthew 13:11; Luke 8:10)
Hi David and Gene:Maybe the following scripture will help:
Quote Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.David the King is one thing His Kingdom is another they are not the same. The Saints and Jesus will be Kings in the KINGDOM of Christ but He turns it over to the Father and for what purpose The GOD who you can't see may be in all and through all. How is He through ALL , is it not by His Spirit, So God rules by His Spirit in the Hearts and minds of His subjects. Jesus plainly said the Kingdom of God is WITH IN YOU, I find that totally accurate with all scripture. GOD RULES FROM WITHIN A PERSON, NOT EXTERNALLY. GOD was (in) Christ reconciling the world unto himself. Where was He David it say (inside) Jesus, not external of Him. I believe your WJ leaders have again misinformed you brother.
love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
GB,
Of course all men are not now and some will never be subjects of God.
God does not live in all men let alone being allowed to rule there.
We must submit to being led by the Spirit of God. [gal5]Nick…..i agree with you not all men (NOW) are ruled by the Spirit of GOD in them, but to say some will never be is a Judgement call by You. I believe God will ultimately rule all mens Hearts. If you are truly of GOD you will submit to Him, it not a thing you control Nick, because if it were then you would be GOD not GOD. GOD creates righteousness alone in a person and He get (ALL) the Credit YOU get NONE. You are saved BY GRACE and THAT (NOT) OF YOURSELF (by your own wiliness to submit). Do you really think it up to your wiliness that you are saved. That to me is a joke. Man always want to take the credit for His salvation. A GOD unto himself.
love and peace to you……………………gene
Quote David the King is one thing His Kingdom is another they are not the same. True, the George Bush is one thing and the U.S. government is another. But he represents the government and makes up a part of it. The government is made up of people, rulers.
So too with God's kingdom. Jesus is the king.
As many scriptures I highlighted show, he has joint heirs of this kingdom. They make up the kingdom.
REVELATION 1:6
“and he MADE US TO BE A KINGDOM, priests to his God and Father”REVELATION 5:9,10:
“and you MADE THEM TO BE A KINGDOM and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings.”Quote I believe your WJ leaders have again misinformed you brother.
Firstly, Gene, the last couple of times you meant to say “JW” you've said “WJ.” This keeps reminding me of WJ and is confusing.–Second, I always tend to believe the people that have scriptures to back up their beliefs rather than simply trusting people who make claims with no scriptural proof.
–I also tend to disbelieve people who cannot answer simple “yes” or “no” questions, such as yourself. It indicates you are either hiding something or that the obvious answer will show you are in error.So, here is my last question you didn't answer:
Let's take this slow.Quote
because the Kingdom of GOD is WITHIN and it wasn't in those people , BUT IT WAS IN JESUS AND THE SAINTS,
–geneGene, are there any scriptures that say Jesus and the saints ARE the kingdom?
(This is a yes or no question). Just a “yes” or “no” would be ok. Thankyou.
You may go on ignoring it if you wish.
Quote So God rules by His Spirit in the Hearts and minds of His subjects. Jesus plainly said the Kingdom of God is WITH IN YOU, , I find that totally accurate with all scripture.
Actually, he “replied” to the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was in them, (either within the pharisees individually, or within them as a group…ie: “in their midst.”You say you find that belief totally accurate with all scripture. Why don't we see.
In Dan 2, several kingdoms were mentioned (real governments with rulers). Then, another kingdom is mentioned that destroys and wipes out all traces of human governments:
DANIEL 2:44
““And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;”
1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.”Here's a fun scripture:
LUKE 22:28-30
““However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel.”Let me ask you Gene (even though you will not answer, for obvious reasons):
Does it say that these ones would be “in” the kingdom or that the kingdom would be “in” them?You find your belief that the kingdom of God is inside you and inside others totally in agreement with scripture. BUT WHAT DOES THE ABOVE SCRIPURE SAY?–That the kingdom is in them, or that they are in the kingdom?
LUKE 12:32:
“Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”A government can be given to people whereas they are given rulership and authority. The scriptures I'm looking at seem to indicate the the kingdom is a government.
Many scriptures speak of Jesus as king. Perhaps we've noticed that the word “king” is the root word of “kingdom.”
Jesus is a major part of the kingdom. But, he has joint heirs. They will “rule as kings with him.” (Rev 20:6)
And note, Jesus says that they will be “IN MY KINGDOM” not the other way around, that the kingdom would be in them. (Luke 22:298-30)
What he said in “reply” to the pharisees has to be understood properly and not twisted.Gene, are there any scriptures that say Jesus and the saints ARE the kingdom?
Yes or no?
Cannot you at least not acknowledge the existence of these scriptures?
I feel this subject is an extremely important one.
Jesus said:
LUKE 4:43
“But he said to them: “Also to other cities I MUST DECLARE THE GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, BECAUSE FOR THIS I WAS SENT FORTH.””
While Jesus was on earth, he was known as a “teacher” but never called a miracle worker, etc. He principally preached and teached about the kingdom of God.And, concerning the conclusion of this system of things, he said the same would be happening:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this GOOD NEWS OF THE KINGDOM will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”The kingdom is the central message of the Christian faith. It is what Jesus said his followers would be preaching about, in all the world, during the last days.
Jesus, as our exemplar, used scripture and often quoted it when speaking. We should do the same, and actually use scriptures to back up our beliefs. Otherwise, they are just our ideas.
Quote GB,
Of course all men are not now and some will never be subjects of God.
God does not live in all men let alone being allowed to rule there.
We must submit to being led by the Spirit of God. [gal5]–Nick.
Gene, as I've pointed out many times and as Nick here seems to be pointing out, it is the spirit of God that is in his followers.
I truly think you are confusing the spirit of God (which can and does lead people) with God's kingdom (which is a government) which will rule over his people, as a government, made up of the holy ones, and of Jesus, the king.MATTHEW 12:27-28
“Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·el′ze·bub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them? This is why they will be judges of YOU. But IF IT IS BY MEANS OF GOD'S SPIRIT THAT I EXPEL THE DEMONS, THE KINGDOM OF GOD HAS REALLY OVERTAKEN YOU.”Jesus was here saying that if he was really using God's spirit, then he was who he said he was, king of that kingdom, and hence, the kingdom of God was making it's presence known. (compare Mat 21:5)
I've been looking closer at the half of the Bible's from Bible gateway that translate it as “within you” and even some Bible's that translate it, that the kingdom of God is “within” the pharisees, also have a footnote that gives an alternate translation.
The first Bible there, for example, the NIV, has a footnote to Luke 17:21 that shows that Jesus’ words could be rendered:
“The kingdom of God is among you.”
Really, if you take out the KJ and the New King James and the 21st century KJ, the vast majority of Bibles in the Bible gateway translate this verse as meaning the the kingdom of God was “among” or “in the midst of” the pharisees, who Jesus was replying to, or answering.
“The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (New World Translation)
“For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (NASB)
“Because God's kingdom is already among you.” (The Message)
“For the Kingdom of God is already among you.[a]” (New Living)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”[a] (English Standard)
“the kingdom of God is in the midst of you. (Darby Translation)
“the kingdom of God is among you.” (holman)
“God's kingdom is among you.” (New International readers version)“The kingdom of God is among you” (The New English Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (The Jerusalem Bible)
“is in the midst of you.” (Revised Standard Version)David……….Jesus said he could do nothing of Himself, God was exercising His Power or WILL ( His kingdom within Him). A kingdom is where the Kings (WILL) is being accomplished. God rules in the Heart and we do that will that is His Kingdom. Your are just seeing things through Physical eyes , not spiritual ones. God's kingdom is a Spiritual Kingdom it comes (NOT with physical observation) The Physical is Just the outward expression of whats going on inside the mind Where GOD rules. Jesus even said He would build the Church through this Power of GOD to reveals things in the mind of People , He rules in the heart and minds of His Children, and that where His Kingdom is ruled from. I know the JW's push the kingdom as only Physical , But Jesus plainly said the Kingdom of God Comes (NOT) with observation< but is within Your. Common sense would tell you thats the way it has to be, in order for it to work.
peace to you…………gene
Random thoughts.
“Kingdom” may refer in a general way to any or all human governments, whether actually headed by a king or not.—Ezr 1:2
MATTHEW 4:8
“Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory,”Children of the king may be referred to as “the offspring of the kingdom.”—2Ki 11:1.
Earlier, Gene, you said: “David the King is one thing His Kingdom is another they are not the same.”
True, they are not the same. But the king represents the kingdom and sometimes, in scripture, the king is spoken of as being the kingdom. (see above.)Another random thought:
“My kingdom is no part of this world.” (John 18:36)Quote Your are just seeing things through Physical eyes , not spiritual ones. Spiritual eyes would be the ones that can actually see scriptures. I believe it is you who are using physical eyes. You cannot see any of the scriptures I've quoted, nor respond to any of my questions.
Quote I know the JW's push the kingdom as only Physical You keep saying this. Why don't you explain what it means. All JW's can say about the kingdom, is what the Bible says, as I have been doing, and as you have not been doing.
Quote He rules in the heart and minds of His Children, and that where His Kingdom is ruled from. Gene, I have one more question. I hate to ask it. (Why is it you completely refuse to even entertain the idea of answering a single question I ask?)
This thread is called: “The Kingdom of God–What is it”?
So, my question to you is a simple one: What is it?
Please attempt to use scriptures. If you can't use scriptures to explain your beliefs, just state what you believe the kingdom of God actually is.
Quote God was exercising His Power or WILL ( His kingdom within Him). A kingdom is where the Kings (WILL) is being accomplished. You say “a kingdom is where the kings will is being accomplished.” So, do you think the kingdom is a place?
But you also say “his power or will (his kingdom within).” So, do you think that the kingdom is God's power? Is that how you would define God's kingdom–as being God's power?(It's true that a kingdom has power and it will use God's power.)
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