The Jews and divine plurality as per the videos

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Here is where we can discuss the topic regarding what the Jews of the OT believed about divine plurality.

In order to discuss in this thread, the requirement is that you must watch all four videos found here BEFORE you discuss them here:

http://dawnmarie4.wordpress.com/an-unex….stament

If you post but did not watch all the videos you will be asked to stop posting and your posts will likely be removed. Thanks for understanding and respecting this.

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Here are the slides that go with the videos…they are full of scriptures. What an awesome presentation!

http://www.gracebellingham.org/index.p….emid=41

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From the speaker's notes on the first video, the payoff of understanding the divine plurality of YHWH is:

Jewish Evangelism
Apologetic Discussion
Biblical Continuity
Interpretive Clarity
Contextualized Theology

The topics covered in the first video are:
1. Understanding Israel's Monotheism
2. Judaism's Two Powers in Heaven Doctrine (OT)
3. Jewish & Christian views of the Two Powers
4. Psalm 82 and Jesus

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The first topic of the first video is (from the notes of the speaker):
1. Understanding Israel's Monotheism

The problems to address are as follows:
* Many Jews see belief in Jesus as God alongside the God of Israel as a violation of monotheism.

* Many scholars believe all or most Israelites (even the biblical writers) were polytheists.

* Other religions see Jesus as one of many (perhaps the 'highest') heavenly sons of God that God created.

* Many scholars believe the idea of Jesus as deity was invented by Christians after the resurrection and is inconsistent with Christianity's Jewish heritage.

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Again, from the notes from the first video 9 (pg. 11):

Monotheism Test:
*Common Hebrew terms for God:
-elohim (ca.2700)
-el (238)
-YHWH (ca. 6800)
-eloah (57)

*The term elohim is used to describe:
-The God of Israel
-The gods of the nations (1 kg 11:33)
-The gods of YHWH's council (Psa 82:1)
-Demons (Deut 32:17)
-(=gods of the nations; Deut 32:8-9; 17:3)
-Deceased human dead (1 Sam 28:13)
-Angels (?-Gen 32:1-2; 35:7)

question 1: Is there more than one elohim that is real/exists?
question 2: Are you a monotheist?

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So we can see that the term 'elohim' is used to refer to other beings also besides just the God (Elohim) of Israel.

The word 'elohim' was translated in different ways as we see in 1 Sam 28:13

New International Version (©1984)
The king said to her, “Don't be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.”

English Standard Version (©2001)
The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.”

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what saw you? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw a god ascending out of the earth.

American Standard Version
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what seest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I see a god coming up out of the earth.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the king said to her be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said to Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

Young's Literal Translation
And the king saith to her, 'Do not fear; for what hast thou seen?' and the woman saith unto Saul, 'Gods I have seen coming up out of the earth.'

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Deut 32:17 shows that demons were sacrificed to and referred to as elohim and translated as 'gods.'

New International Version (©1984)
They sacrificed to demons, which are not God–gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear.

New Living Translation (©2007)
They offered sacrifices to demons, which are not God, to gods they had not known before, to new gods only recently arrived, to gods their ancestors had never feared.

English Standard Version (©2001)
They sacrificed to demons that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never dreaded.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
They sacrificed unto demons, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came in of late, whom your fathers feared not.

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All are invited to discuss this topic but you must watch all four videos and then discuss the videos, not insult members here (sad that I have to add the last part but as you can read the earlier posts of t8, the moderator no less, and terraricca on this thread-unfortunately I do).

Here is how 'elohim' is translated in Psalms 82:1

New International Version (©1984)
A psalm of Asaph. God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the “gods”:

New Living Translation (©2007)
A psalm of Asaph. God presides over heaven's court; he pronounces judgment on the heavenly beings:

English Standard Version (©2001)
A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
A Psalm of Asaph. God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
God stands in the assembly of the Angels and among the Angels he will judge.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
God stands in the congregation of the mighty; he judges among the gods.

American Standard Version
God standeth in the congregation of God; He judgeth among the gods.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A psalm for Asaph. God hath stood in the congregation of gods: and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods.

English Revised Version
A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of God; he judgeth among the gods.

Webster's Bible Translation
A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

World English Bible
God presides in the great assembly. He judges among the gods.

Young's Literal Translation
— A Psalm of Asaph. God hath stood in the company of God, In the midst God doth judge.

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The notes (page 17) from the first video are:

Elohim not Equal in Attributes

The term elohim is used to describe:
*The God of Israel
*The gods of the nations (1 Kg 11:33)
*The gods of Yahweh's council (Psa 82:1)
*Demons (Deut 32:17)
-(=gods of the nations; Deut 32:8-9; 17:3)
*Deceased human dead (1 Sam 28:13)
*Angels (?-Gen 32:1-2, 35:7)

YHWH is an elohim, but no other elohim = YHWH

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Here is a passage that suggests divine plurality:

Isaiah 41:21“Present your case,” the LORD says .
“Bring forward your strong arguments,”
The King of Jacob says.

22Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place;
As for the former events, declare what they were,
That we may consider them and know their outcome.
Or announce to us what is coming;

23Declare the things that are going to come afterward,
That we may know that you are gods;
Indeed, do good or evil, that we may anxiously look about us and fear together.

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Page 18 of the notes of the first video:

elohim=place of residence

Here the speaker has a diagram with four squares and a small square in the middle.

Top left square says:
Plural elohim (gods) of council

Top right square says:
demonic elohim

Bottom left square says:
elohim as messengers (angels)

Bottom right square says:
elohim as disembodied human dead

The small square in the center of the four squares says:
YHWH [godhead]

It would be a good idea for you to watch the video to understand where the speaker is going with this one.
You will find both the video and the notes here:

http://www.gracebellingham.org/index.p….emid=41

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Page 20 of the notes for the first video from this link:

http://www.gracebellingham.org/index.p….emid=41

What follows is a summary thus far:
To This Point

*Biblical use of the word elohim shows us itis not tied to a set of attributes.

*Explains why more than one thing can be described with elohim.

*English translations at time obscure the meaning and the theology of the biblical writers.

*Since elohim is not about attributes, the biblical writers were not denying monotheism by using that word to describe other figures they believed to exist

      -For Jews: Divine plurality language is not a threat to monotheism

I encourage anyone to watch all four videos and discuss these concepts. I know it takes quite a while but just watch them as you have time. You will find that the speaker has done his homework and provides evidence to back up what he is saying.

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Page 22-25 of the notes for the first video from this link:

http://www.gracebellingham.org/index.p….emid=41

Two Focus Points for Rest of Session:

*Yahweh was in command of other elohim; He was superior and unique.

*”Sonship” language (e.g., sons of God) was rightly applied to divine beings, not only humans, without threatening monotheism.

Psalm 82
1 God (elohim) has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods (elohim) he holds judgment:

Psalm 89:5-7
5 Let the heavens praise your wonders, O LORD,
your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones!
6 For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD?
Who among the heavenly beings (el) is like the LORD,
a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones,
and awesome above all who are around him?

See the actual notes at the link for more info about the Hebrew.

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