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Quote (princess @ April 14 2011,22:04) That is the whole of the matter Stuart, when does life begin? What if you wanted the child, even if she did not. I understand you would have no say in the matter, she can do what she wants, however, you have created most likely a 'Little Stuart'.
Have I?I'm sure there is a Judeo-christian verse that assures me that I can do what I want with my woman, and there is definitely a sura that says that to islamic men. I prefer human rights to the principle of men keeping women barefoot, or pregnant, or dead.
They say the fastest way to end poverty is to free women, and especially free them reproductively. The Catholic church, and those who oppose abortion appear to believe in the perpetuation of poverty. How you would call that a lesser evil, on top of the assertion of religious dogma over medical consent, is beyond me.
Stuart
Stuart,
At times my dear friend, your tendency to swing from branch to branch is hard to keep up with.
I don't know is there a Stuart Little somewhere, let me know, I would love to compare father and son, would be quite interesting.
I am quite aware of the dogma's of some sects in regards to reproduction, however it seems you support using abortion as a birth control method, which causes me to think that that is an evil among evils.
Perhaps I missed where you confirmed your say of when life begins, this being the case, would you please reiterate.
I do not post personal or familial details online, as I am sure you will understand.
I support abortion as a medical treatment subject to the medical consent of a pregnant woman who needs that treatment for whatever health or wellbeing reason she may have, but of course it is not intended as a means of contraception because it is a surgery that costs far more and presents much greater risks than do methods designed for birth control.
Life “begins” around 4 billion years ago, and has not stopped since. Five in every six human zygotes continue life for a few days then die, and that is not by any intervention by humans. Presumably the god believer must believe that 83% of all new “creations” of human life have not been adequately designed to become human children. Are those lost zygotes mourned? Is there a moral wrong done by the lost of those zygotes? Are fertility clinic doctors shot dead by moronic religious zealots because of that?
No, the anti-abortion position is an unsophisticated emotional knee-jerk reaction that uses absurd generalisations and ignorant, arbitrary arguments that trivialise the questions involved and provide no decent ethical proposal. They attempt to guilt-trip in situations where actually they have not established that guilt is even a relevant response. Should someone feel guilty after being saved by heart surgery? Should a woman feel guilty because her life has been saved through surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy? The anti-abortionist has nothing to say in this case, and if abortion is OK in this circumstance then he or she has no argument against any abortion being OK.
Very amusing metaphor, by the way, but of course I have been sitting on the same branch and scratching the same armpit the whole time!
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 14 2011,22:19) Quote (princess @ April 14 2011,22:04) That is the whole of the matter Stuart, when does life begin? What if you wanted the child, even if she did not. I understand you would have no say in the matter, she can do what she wants, however, you have created most likely a 'Little Stuart'.
Have I?I'm sure there is a Judeo-christian verse that assures me that I can do what I want with my woman, and there is definitely a sura that says that to islamic men. I prefer human rights to the principle of men keeping women barefoot, or pregnant, or dead.
They say the fastest way to end poverty is to free women, and especially free them reproductively. The Catholic church, and those who oppose abortion appear to believe in the perpetuation of poverty. How you would call that a lesser evil, on top of the assertion of religious dogma over medical consent, is beyond me.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….The fastest way to end poverty is to end greed,selfishness,war and OH Yes! irresponsible procreation,all these things can be accomplished without murdering an inocent life…Education in the area of how the human body is designed and functions with respect to reproduction would be good start…Quote (theodorej @ April 16 2011,11:02) Quote (Stu @ April 14 2011,22:19) Quote (princess @ April 14 2011,22:04) That is the whole of the matter Stuart, when does life begin? What if you wanted the child, even if she did not. I understand you would have no say in the matter, she can do what she wants, however, you have created most likely a 'Little Stuart'.
Have I?I'm sure there is a Judeo-christian verse that assures me that I can do what I want with my woman, and there is definitely a sura that says that to islamic men. I prefer human rights to the principle of men keeping women barefoot, or pregnant, or dead.
They say the fastest way to end poverty is to free women, and especially free them reproductively. The Catholic church, and those who oppose abortion appear to believe in the perpetuation of poverty. How you would call that a lesser evil, on top of the assertion of religious dogma over medical consent, is beyond me.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….The fastest way to end poverty is to end greed,selfishness,war and OH Yes! irresponsible procreation,all these things can be accomplished without murdering an inocent life…Education in the area of how the human body is designed and functions with respect to reproduction would be good start…
I agree with you on every point, theodorej, apart from the words “fastest” and “murder”!Abortion is an important medical procedure that prevents the death of an “innocent life” (what point you do particularly want to make with your use of innocent? I suspect this is another emotional appeal where an ethical argument is called for. Are some murders acceptable in cases where the person in your view is not innocent? Should that not also be something we should work to prevent?)
No anti-abortionist has yet addressed the question of the fact that abortion actually saves women's lives, and so how is that life-saving abortion any different ethically to any other? Should I take it that christians really are so immoral in their worldview that they would watch a woman die because abortion is too squeamish a concept for them? That is all the discussion has really boiled down to so far. Human rights of medical consent for potentially life-saving surgery versus point-free emotion and squeamishness. No one can even mount a convincing scriptural case against abortion, and I guess that is because posters here know full well that the Judeo-christian god threatens women with abortion-causing violence throughout the OT.
Why do you persist with this immoral belief system, theodorej? You are an intellgent person, surely you can see it has no meaningful answers to these important questions.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 16 2011,12:47) Quote (theodorej @ April 16 2011,11:02) Quote (Stu @ April 14 2011,22:19) Quote (princess @ April 14 2011,22:04) That is the whole of the matter Stuart, when does life begin? What if you wanted the child, even if she did not. I understand you would have no say in the matter, she can do what she wants, however, you have created most likely a 'Little Stuart'.
Have I?I'm sure there is a Judeo-christian verse that assures me that I can do what I want with my woman, and there is definitely a sura that says that to islamic men. I prefer human rights to the principle of men keeping women barefoot, or pregnant, or dead.
They say the fastest way to end poverty is to free women, and especially free them reproductively. The Catholic church, and those who oppose abortion appear to believe in the perpetuation of poverty. How you would call that a lesser evil, on top of the assertion of religious dogma over medical consent, is beyond me.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….The fastest way to end poverty is to end greed,selfishness,war and OH Yes! irresponsible procreation,all these things can be accomplished without murdering an inocent life…Education in the area of how the human body is designed and functions with respect to reproduction would be good start…
I agree with you on every point, theodorej, apart from the words “fastest” and “murder”!Abortion is an important medical procedure that prevents the death of an “innocent life” (what point you do particularly want to make with your use of innocent? I suspect this is another emotional appeal where an ethical argument is called for. Are some murders acceptable in cases where the person in your view is not innocent? Should that not also be something we should work to prevent?)
No anti-abortionist has yet addressed the question of the fact that abortion actually saves women's lives, and so how is that life-saving abortion any different ethically to any other? Should I take it that christians really are so immoral in their worldview that they would watch a woman die because abortion is too squeamish a concept for them? That is all the discussion has really boiled down to so far. Human rights of medical consent for potentially life-saving surgery versus point-free emotion and squeamishness. No one can even mount a convincing scriptural case against abortion, and I guess that is because posters here know full well that the Judeo-christian god threatens women with abortion-causing violence throughout the OT.
Why do you persist with this immoral belief system, theodorej? You are an intellgent person, surely you can see it has no meaningful answers to these important questions.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….. The issue of abortion is one of the most hotly contested issues of our day….Let me give my perspective first and then we can proceed…Life begins at conception the very fact that multiple interactions with cellular reproduction are taking place at the same time and in concert I might add tells me there is life here and ultimately a human being is brought forth….Abortion or a womens right to choose is none of my business and it is none of the governments business either….It is the personal private sin of the women who chooses to abort…There are numerous cases of severe mental disorder among women who make this decision…. When it comes to a physicians decision in the case of choosing the new born or the mothers life….this is an issue that is none of my business either,it is between the patient,her doctor and God if he is invited….Quote (theodorej @ April 16 2011,23:49) Greetings Stu….. The issue of abortion is one of the most hotly contested issues of our day….Let me give my perspective first and then we can proceed…Life begins at conception the very fact that multiple interactions with cellular reproduction are taking place at the same time and in concert I might add tells me there is life here and ultimately a human being is brought forth….Abortion or a womens right to choose is none of my business and it is none of the governments business either….It is the personal private sin of the women who chooses to abort…There are numerous cases of severe mental disorder among women who make this decision…. When it comes to a physicians decision in the case of choosing the new born or the mothers life….this is an issue that is none of my business either,it is between the patient,her doctor and God if he is invited….
You appear to have no ethical argument against abortion, and you have not justified it as a sin, not that I am impressed in the least by that word myself. By your own standard, your god is one of the biggest sinners of all time if you take this view. How many pregnant women were there at the time of the alleged flood, or in any of the populations that your god boasts to have massacred? What about its threats to dash out foetuses from wombs?Is it a sin for a doctor to remove an ectopic pregnancy thus saving a life?
Christians' persistent avoidance of those kinds of questions demonstrates to me that no christian's opinion is worth a cent on the question.
However you do acknowledge that you do not wish to personally intercede and I appreciate your acknowledgment of a woman's right to medical consent.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 17 2011,19:23) Quote (theodorej @ April 16 2011,23:49) Greetings Stu….. The issue of abortion is one of the most hotly contested issues of our day….Let me give my perspective first and then we can proceed…Life begins at conception the very fact that multiple interactions with cellular reproduction are taking place at the same time and in concert I might add tells me there is life here and ultimately a human being is brought forth….Abortion or a womens right to choose is none of my business and it is none of the governments business either….It is the personal private sin of the women who chooses to abort…There are numerous cases of severe mental disorder among women who make this decision…. When it comes to a physicians decision in the case of choosing the new born or the mothers life….this is an issue that is none of my business either,it is between the patient,her doctor and God if he is invited….
You appear to have no ethical argument against abortion, and you have not justified it as a sin, not that I am impressed in the least by that word myself. By your own standard, your god is one of the biggest sinners of all time if you take this view. How many pregnant women were there at the time of the alleged flood, or in any of the populations that your god boasts to have massacred? What about its threats to dash out foetuses from wombs?Is it a sin for a doctor to remove an ectopic pregnancy thus saving a life?
Christians' persistent avoidance of those kinds of questions demonstrates to me that no christian's opinion is worth a cent on the question.
However you do acknowledge that you do not wish to personally intercede and I appreciate your acknowledgment of a woman's right to medical consent.
Stuart
Greetings Stu…. The human body is a rythmatic concert of interacting cells with blood….blood with organs….organs with specific functions….Reproduction is one of these functions and when it is interupted it throws off the entire rythm…The same applies to the taking of birth control pills…There is an inordinate number of cases of breast cancer among women since the introduction of the pill…Iam offering this information not in an accusatory manner,however,these statistics are available…The answer to your question with respect to the ectopic pregnancy is NO!! The life of the Mother is sacred also…When a Doctor takes the Hipacratic Oath…He is pledging before a higher authority to do no harm…Quote (Stu @ April 15 2011,00:00) I do not post personal or familial details online, as I am sure you will understand. I support abortion as a medical treatment subject to the medical consent of a pregnant woman who needs that treatment for whatever health or wellbeing reason she may have, but of course it is not intended as a means of contraception because it is a surgery that costs far more and presents much greater risks than do methods designed for birth control.
Life “begins” around 4 billion years ago, and has not stopped since. Five in every six human zygotes continue life for a few days then die, and that is not by any intervention by humans. Presumably the god believer must believe that 83% of all new “creations” of human life have not been adequately designed to become human children. Are those lost zygotes mourned? Is there a moral wrong done by the lost of those zygotes? Are fertility clinic doctors shot dead by moronic religious zealots because of that?
No, the anti-abortion position is an unsophisticated emotional knee-jerk reaction that uses absurd generalisations and ignorant, arbitrary arguments that trivialise the questions involved and provide no decent ethical proposal. They attempt to guilt-trip in situations where actually they have not established that guilt is even a relevant response. Should someone feel guilty after being saved by heart surgery? Should a woman feel guilty because her life has been saved through surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy? The anti-abortionist has nothing to say in this case, and if abortion is OK in this circumstance then he or she has no argument against any abortion being OK.
Very amusing metaphor, by the way, but of course I have been sitting on the same branch and scratching the same armpit the whole time!
Stuart
Stu! Good question, if those Children who never knew anyone and died, before they even were born in the flesh, will have a chance to know Jesus and Hid teaching, in the Millennium….
This might be hard for you to understand but that you are even here yet, proves some faith you have….
Abortion, is sinful…..I know you don;t believe that…. but I do…..
Peace to you and yours, IreneQuote Human rights of medical consent for potentially life-saving surgery versus point-free emotion and squeamishness then why to you buck and kick when one believes in a god, if a human has the right to do what they want with their bodies, then why the fuss over one believing in a god/gods. I don't understand.
Quote (theodorej @ April 17 2011,22:31) Greetings Stu…. The human body is a rythmatic concert of interacting cells with blood….blood with organs….organs with specific functions….Reproduction is one of these functions and when it is interupted it throws off the entire rythm…The same applies to the taking of birth control pills…There is an inordinate number of cases of breast cancer among women since the introduction of the pill…Iam offering this information not in an accusatory manner,however,these statistics are available…The answer to your question with respect to the ectopic pregnancy is NO!! The life of the Mother is sacred also…When a Doctor takes the Hipacratic Oath…He is pledging before a higher authority to do no harm…
I have no idea what you mean by a “rythmatic concert of interacting cells”. Exactly what DO you mean? Are we talking about hormonal feedback systems? Exactly which systems are affected in a way to which you object?Regarding contraceptive pills, your statement that they cause breast cancer is not honest. There is the tiniest of positive correlations between the incidence of breast cancer and use of the combined contraceptive pill, but actually the outcome is better for women on it from the point of view of breast cancer because of the monitoring a GP does in relation to prescribing the pill. The other more important factor is that the pill reduces the incidence of several other cancers, notably ovarian cancers and endometrial cancers. There is a net reduction in mortality for women on the pill compared with those who do not use it.
Given that you are thusfar the sole honest responder to the question about ectopic pregnancy, shall we begin down the slippery slope now? If abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy is OK, then what abortion is not OK, and what is the ethical argument for the distinction, if there is one?
Regarding the Hippocratic Oath, which begins:
“I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:”
You might be sailing very close to the wind in even quoting it, given the first three commandments of your religion!
Stuart
Quote (Baker @ April 18 2011,01:30) Quote (Stu @ April 15 2011,00:00) I do not post personal or familial details online, as I am sure you will understand. I support abortion as a medical treatment subject to the medical consent of a pregnant woman who needs that treatment for whatever health or wellbeing reason she may have, but of course it is not intended as a means of contraception because it is a surgery that costs far more and presents much greater risks than do methods designed for birth control.
Life “begins” around 4 billion years ago, and has not stopped since. Five in every six human zygotes continue life for a few days then die, and that is not by any intervention by humans. Presumably the god believer must believe that 83% of all new “creations” of human life have not been adequately designed to become human children. Are those lost zygotes mourned? Is there a moral wrong done by the lost of those zygotes? Are fertility clinic doctors shot dead by moronic religious zealots because of that?
No, the anti-abortion position is an unsophisticated emotional knee-jerk reaction that uses absurd generalisations and ignorant, arbitrary arguments that trivialise the questions involved and provide no decent ethical proposal. They attempt to guilt-trip in situations where actually they have not established that guilt is even a relevant response. Should someone feel guilty after being saved by heart surgery? Should a woman feel guilty because her life has been saved through surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy? The anti-abortionist has nothing to say in this case, and if abortion is OK in this circumstance then he or she has no argument against any abortion being OK.
Very amusing metaphor, by the way, but of course I have been sitting on the same branch and scratching the same armpit the whole time!
Stuart
Stu! Good question, if those Children who never knew anyone and died, before they even were born in the flesh, will have a chance to know Jesus and Hid teaching, in the Millennium….
This might be hard for you to understand but that you are even here yet, proves some faith you have….
Abortion, is sinful…..I know you don;t believe that…. but I do…..
Peace to you and yours, Irene
Hello IreneI guess the difference here is that we do not agree on the existence of a supernatural world.
However, I am prepared to pretend there is a god for the purpose of discussion. If all those who didn't know Jesus because they were never born, or never had the language to make sense of the adult themes of christianity can still know Jesus at some point in the future, then why is abortion wrong?
Why it it any different to all the other natural or accidental means by which zygotes or foetuses or babies are lost? What do you really care for “this life”? If the foetus never sins then it never needs salvation, and surely if it dies it has a direct path to whatever your crazy religion thinks is the hereafter.
Stuart
Quote (princess @ April 18 2011,09:42) Quote Human rights of medical consent for potentially life-saving surgery versus point-free emotion and squeamishness then why to you buck and kick when one believes in a god, if a human has the right to do what they want with their bodies, then why the fuss over one believing in a god/gods. I don't understand.
Your medical consent gives you the right to refuse an abortion. The problem is when christians make lame non-arguments against abortion and that gets taken seriously by others and becomes pressure on women to give up that right, or on lawmakers to limit women's rights to consent. What's when it stops being just mindless adherence to squeamishness and starts being a human rights abuse.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 18 2011,13:16) Quote (theodorej @ April 17 2011,22:31) Greetings Stu…. The human body is a rythmatic concert of interacting cells with blood….blood with organs….organs with specific functions….Reproduction is one of these functions and when it is interupted it throws off the entire rythm…The same applies to the taking of birth control pills…There is an inordinate number of cases of breast cancer among women since the introduction of the pill…Iam offering this information not in an accusatory manner,however,these statistics are available…The answer to your question with respect to the ectopic pregnancy is NO!! The life of the Mother is sacred also…When a Doctor takes the Hipacratic Oath…He is pledging before a higher authority to do no harm…
I have no idea what you mean by a “rythmatic concert of interacting cells”. Exactly what DO you mean? Are we talking about hormonal feedback systems? Exactly which systems are affected in a way to which you object?Regarding contraceptive pills, your statement that they cause breast cancer is not honest. There is the tiniest of positive correlations between the incidence of breast cancer and use of the combined contraceptive pill, but actually the outcome is better for women on it from the point of view of breast cancer because of the monitoring a GP does in relation to prescribing the pill. The other more important factor is that the pill reduces the incidence of several other cancers, notably ovarian cancers and endometrial cancers. There is a net reduction in mortality for women on the pill compared with those who do not use it.
Given that you are thusfar the sole honest responder to the question about ectopic pregnancy, shall we begin down the slippery slope now? If abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy is OK, then what abortion is not OK, and what is the ethical argument for the distinction, if there is one?
Regarding the Hippocratic Oath, which begins:
“I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:”
You might be sailing very close to the wind in even quoting it, given the first three commandments of your religion!
Stuart
Greetings Stu… This is not about my religion,and with reference to the oath,the overall pledge is before a higher authority and the acknowledgement there of….Paul preached to the greeks and acknowledged the temple of the unknown God….The body functions in an orderly manner or rythmaticly for the most part…given the overall health we breath and the oxygen is processed,we eat and the food is processed,the body extracts nutrients feeds the cells and eliminates the waste,this is a process that is repeatative and rythmatic….Iam not a physician and by no means an authority,but an application of common sense tells me that,If the body has a cyclical format for reproduction and it is interupted the consequence would be the breaking of a harmoneous process and confusion would set in….This confusion could manefest itself in the form sickness or desease….Stu if you are a physician have patience with my sophmoric observations and indulge me…In addition…my observation of the effects of contraception was completely honest and not speculative…..my statement simply said there is a connection I did not quote stats and numbersQuote (theodorej @ April 19 2011,02:04) Greetings Stu… This is not about my religion,and with reference to the oath,the overall pledge is before a higher authority and the acknowledgement there of….Paul preached to the greeks and acknowledged the temple of the unknown God….The body functions in an orderly manner or rythmaticly for the most part…given the overall health we breath and the oxygen is processed,we eat and the food is processed,the body extracts nutrients feeds the cells and eliminates the waste,this is a process that is repeatative and rythmatic….Iam not a physician and by no means an authority,but an application of common sense tells me that,If the body has a cyclical format for reproduction and it is interupted the consequence would be the breaking of a harmoneous process and confusion would set in….This confusion could manefest itself in the form sickness or desease….Stu if you are a physician have patience with my sophmoric observations and indulge me…In addition…my observation of the effects of contraception was completely honest and not speculative…..my statement simply said there is a connection I did not quote stats and numbers
I suppose the final question on the Hippocratic oath is whether if you were medically trained you would take it, and what you think your god would think of your promises to false gods.You don't know what you mean by “rythmically” (or rhythmically, as it is spelled) and it looks like you have not studied medicine (I haven't either) and it appears from your pseudoscientific language you have absolutely no meaningful point to make about the health effects of contraception. Would you accept your own arguments if they came from a lawmaker who was legislating on contraception for the good or ill of the population? I hope not.
I take it you are not Catholic. Your posts read like Catholic apology.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 18 2011,13:51) Quote (princess @ April 18 2011,09:42) Quote Human rights of medical consent for potentially life-saving surgery versus point-free emotion and squeamishness then why to you buck and kick when one believes in a god, if a human has the right to do what they want with their bodies, then why the fuss over one believing in a god/gods. I don't understand.
Your medical consent gives you the right to refuse an abortion. The problem is when christians make lame non-arguments against abortion and that gets taken seriously by others and becomes pressure on women to give up that right, or on lawmakers to limit women's rights to consent. What's when it stops being just mindless adherence to squeamishness and starts being a human rights abuse.Stuart
Being human gives you a choice to either believe in god or not. What is the difference?When does life begin Stuart? your prior explanation was how shall we say 'a lame excuse'.
Stuart, we are going in circles with this, you support abortion in any means or ways.
I can readily admit, to save a life of the mother, I would not object. After that the next that would tug at my heart would be a pregnacy by rape. It would take a strong woman to handle such things.
Quote (princess @ April 19 2011,12:35) Being human gives you a choice to either believe in god or not. What is the difference? When does life begin Stuart? your prior explanation was how shall we say 'a lame excuse'.
Stuart, we are going in circles with this, you support abortion in any means or ways.
I can readily admit, to save a life of the mother, I would not object. After that the next that would tug at my heart would be a pregnacy by rape. It would take a strong woman to handle such things.
Believing in things that are not really there means your spirituality is based on a lie. There is nothing wrong with that if you are hell-bent on it, but when you call an immoral religion the basis of your morality you have some issues to address, I think.My answer to your question about when life begins is, I think, the best I can do with the material you provide me. When did life ever stop? A new human comes from cells that were living before the conception of that human, and those cells arose from living cells in turn. Your question is meaningless, unless you can explain what alternative meaning you have. I rather think you have some religious notion of souls going on there. My answer to that alternative question would be, in turn, what is a soul? How about the version that asks about conciousness? A foetus does not have a conscious brain for most of its gestation. Throughout the time between its existence as a foetus and its existence as a toddler human brains are “turned on” like turning up a dimmer switch on a light. There is no one moment when that aspect of life begins.
I am not dogmatic: I respond to robust argument and evidence. Have you got any of either?
OK. Ectopic pregnancy in a case where medical opinion says it will kill a mother is acceptable. To put it crudely, you accept abortion. But you also appear to be objecting to abortion. If my contention is right that you are mainly arguing from the squeamishness that you feel then this is consistent, you are saying that you don't feel squeamish enough to object to the case where a woman's life will be saved, but it is too squeamish to think of other cases.
Perhaps the lawmakers should adopt the Princess Squeamishness Scale and employ you as a consultant. How will you help them decide on that harrowing case of pregnancy from rape? What situation would you give them as an example of an abortion that should never be allowed? Does squeamishness overcome any woman's right to absolutely decide what should happen in her body?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 19 2011,08:42) Quote (theodorej @ April 19 2011,02:04) Greetings Stu… This is not about my religion,and with reference to the oath,the overall pledge is before a higher authority and the acknowledgement there of….Paul preached to the greeks and acknowledged the temple of the unknown God….The body functions in an orderly manner or rythmaticly for the most part…given the overall health we breath and the oxygen is processed,we eat and the food is processed,the body extracts nutrients feeds the cells and eliminates the waste,this is a process that is repeatative and rythmatic….Iam not a physician and by no means an authority,but an application of common sense tells me that,If the body has a cyclical format for reproduction and it is interupted the consequence would be the breaking of a harmoneous process and confusion would set in….This confusion could manefest itself in the form sickness or desease….Stu if you are a physician have patience with my sophmoric observations and indulge me…In addition…my observation of the effects of contraception was completely honest and not speculative…..my statement simply said there is a connection I did not quote stats and numbers
I suppose the final question on the Hippocratic oath is whether if you were medically trained you would take it, and what you think your god would think of your promises to false gods.You don't know what you mean by “rythmically” (or rhythmically, as it is spelled) and it looks like you have not studied medicine (I haven't either) and it appears from your pseudoscientific language you have absolutely no meaningful point to make about the health effects of contraception. Would you accept your own arguments if they came from a lawmaker who was legislating on contraception for the good or ill of the population? I hope not.
I take it you are not Catholic. Your posts read like Catholic apology.
Stuart
Greetings Stu…. As I have previously stated ..Abortion is a personal sin between God and the women…it is none of my business as it is also none of the governments business..which means I do not want to pay for it with my tax money nor do want any elected official legislating its propergation…..The catholic church disowned me many years ago for marrying a Jewish women…since then I have studied theology and the scriptures and are in search of understanding….Iam not a scientist,however,science is something that peaks my interests…Quote Believing in things that are not really there means your spirituality is based on a lie. There is nothing wrong with that if you are hell-bent on it, but when you call an immoral religion the basis of your morality you have some issues to address, I think. Stuart, man's morality is any better? Give me proof and just possibly you may have an atheist on your hands. Be warned ' you would have a better chance at seeing god'.
Quote My answer to your question about when life begins is, I think, the best I can do with the material you provide me. When did life ever stop? A new human comes from cells that were living before the conception of that human, and those cells arose from living cells in turn. Your question is meaningless, unless you can explain what alternative meaning you have. Playing ring around the rosie has never been a favorite of mine, especially since I understood what the song truly meant. Yes, Stuart life is all around us, even those cells that are running around, nothing comes out of it unless two are joined to form a human. You are starting to back peddle on the issue.
Quote I rather think you have some religious notion of souls going on there.
What is a soul Stuart, can one really have one? does one really need one? what does it mean when one says they have none, or one has sold their soul to god or the devil? Books and movies sell well when this is the genre.Quote A foetus does not have a conscious brain for most of its gestation. Throughout the time between its existence as a foetus and its existence as a toddler human brains are “turned on” like turning up a dimmer switch on a light. There is no one moment when that aspect of life begins. I would be so bold to suggest, your life has not started yet? Perhaps your switch cannot handle high voltage, 110 is not that bad, give it a try. Perhaps the jolt will help a bit, can't say it back Stuart, when I was younger I feel upon an electric fence while down by the troth, my poor brother did not know what to do, he pulled through though, if not, I would be your imaginary friend, and Stuart dear, no sarcastic comments are needed. thank you all the less.
Quote I am not dogmatic: I respond to robust argument and evidence. Have you got any of either? Never suggested you were any other way, I have come to accept your narrow mindedness.
Stuart, saving a life is saving a life, just due to the stupidity of a woman does not give just cause. Sorry, it is how I feel. The best one yet I have heard, a girl intentionally wanted to conceive a child to keep her boyfriend, when he decline the offer of being a dad, she decided to have the child aborted. This is who you support?
I am not 'squeamishness' by any means Stuart, I do not understand why you insist on using the word towards me.
I do however like the Princess Scale though, interesting concept, will ponder to see if this is applicable.
Stuart, each of us have our own, I am not nor going to support a woman who makes such decisions in life due to 'they lost their head' in the moment. When I am out on the court shooting hoops with my son, I am playing basketball, when on the field we play football. Not wearing my good white dress while doing it (although getting pretty good shooting hoops in the morning with heels.) I am sure you understand what I mean. In layman's' terms, I don't support stupidity. No more I can say to the matter. You can choose to support stupidity if you wish and categorize it under woman's rights if you would like.
However, I do appreciate when a man opens the door for me, such a gracious gesture in this day and age.
do take care Stuart.
Quote (theodorej @ April 19 2011,22:50) Quote (Stu @ April 19 2011,08:42) Quote (theodorej @ April 19 2011,02:04) Greetings Stu… This is not about my religion,and with reference to the oath,the overall pledge is before a higher authority and the acknowledgement there of….Paul preached to the greeks and acknowledged the temple of the unknown God….The body functions in an orderly manner or rythmaticly for the most part…given the overall health we breath and the oxygen is processed,we eat and the food is processed,the body extracts nutrients feeds the cells and eliminates the waste,this is a process that is repeatative and rythmatic….Iam not a physician and by no means an authority,but an application of common sense tells me that,If the body has a cyclical format for reproduction and it is interupted the consequence would be the breaking of a harmoneous process and confusion would set in….This confusion could manefest itself in the form sickness or desease….Stu if you are a physician have patience with my sophmoric observations and indulge me…In addition…my observation of the effects of contraception was completely honest and not speculative…..my statement simply said there is a connection I did not quote stats and numbers
I suppose the final question on the Hippocratic oath is whether if you were medically trained you would take it, and what you think your god would think of your promises to false gods.You don't know what you mean by “rythmically” (or rhythmically, as it is spelled) and it looks like you have not studied medicine (I haven't either) and it appears from your pseudoscientific language you have absolutely no meaningful point to make about the health effects of contraception. Would you accept your own arguments if they came from a lawmaker who was legislating on contraception for the good or ill of the population? I hope not.
I take it you are not Catholic. Your posts read like Catholic apology.
Stuart
Greetings Stu…. As I have previously stated ..Abortion is a personal sin between God and the women…it is none of my business as it is also none of the governments business..which means I do not want to pay for it with my tax money nor do want any elected official legislating its propergation…..The catholic church disowned me many years ago for marrying a Jewish women…since then I have studied theology and the scriptures and are in search of understanding….Iam not a scientist,however,science is something that peaks my interests…
Many christians complain that “secularists” are trying to sideline their views and that christian politicians should be able to apply the ethics they get from their religion, actually to which any True Secularist should say “sure, no problem”.But here is the problem: all you have against abortion is the poorly defined word “sin” in regards to a Being that does not exist.
Meantime I have a case argued on principles of human rights with evidence to support my conclusions. I don't think your opinion should have as much weight as mine in regards to legislation. Effectively you want to return us to the dark ages of religious just so stories of gods and demons and other supernatural beings.
If you are serious about this then I think you should hand back your antibiotics and car keys. I could assert that they are sinful and have them legislated against by exactly the same principle as you are applying here.
I appreciate you have broken from mainstream religious adherence but while we are talking of money shall we cancel all the tax breaks the churches enjoy the world over and see how long mainstream christianity lasts, while we are at it? I object to my money being spent in that way too.
Stuart
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