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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:23) Hi SF,
Exactly.
But Lord Jesus is given the KINGDOM[Dan7]
After his millenial reign he gives the KINGDOM back to his God.[1Cor15]
28:
To God, so he maybe all in all.
King Jesus, or God your King?
Does God not play by his own rules?
God cannot lie.How Jesus became God? This is how a christian coments;
We are often taught by our church's that from the beginning followers of Jesus believed that he was God. However, that is not the case. In fact, for 300 years followers of Jesus fought over this subject. Sometimes literaly to the death. In fact Athanasius, known as the defender of the faith, defended it by having many of those who disagreed with his side killed. Doesn't sound very much like Jesus does it? Let's take a look at what the Bible says first. Then we can look at some historical evidence.
1) Does Jesus ever claim to be God? Often John 14:6 is given to us to say yes. “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes tothe Father except through me.” Jesus goes on to say that if you know Jesus you know the Father, and that the Father is in Jesus and that Jesus is in the Father. So they are equal right? John 14:28 adds, “the Father is Greater than I am” So did Jesus lie? How can he be the second part of the Trinity equal to the Father and the Father still greater that Jesus? A very difficult question to answer, especially if you are a Bible literalist.
Could it be in the first section that Jesus is saying that they (Jesus and the Father) are one in purpose? (no I am not a Morman) He asks in the Garden of Gethsemane that we could all be one. Does that mean that he is asking that we all be God or that we be of one purpose? He even states in John 17:3 that Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the ONLY TRUE God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (capitals mine)
2) Here are some other verses that tell of the relationship between the Father and Jesus. After reading them, can you truly say that Jesus is equal to the Father?
John 12:49 Jesus says that he takes commands from the Father
Luke 10:22 says that all things have been given to him by the Father
John 3:35 The Father has placed everything in the Sons hands
John 6:24 The Father sent Jesus
John 8:28 The Father taught Jesus
John 12:49 Jesus speaks for the father, not his own words
John 14:31 Jesus does exactly what the Father commands him to do
John 5:24″I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life”
Over and over again, Jesus submits himself to the Father not as an equal, but as a servant doing his God's will.Are you ready for some basic history? Here we go.
Jesus did not officially become God until the council of Nicea 325 A.D. under the rule of Constantine. Today, many believe that Constantine was a Christian. The following happened after he so called saw the sign of the cross in the sky that said “Conquer by this.” meaning to conquer by Jesus, the Prince of Peace. Does that make sense? He saw the “sign” in 312 A.D.
1) Had his son Licinius executed 320
2) Had Crispus another son executed 326 by “cold poison”
3) Had his wife Fausta put to death in an “overheated bath”. Some say at the request of his “Christian” mother Helena 326
4) He continued to keep the title “pontifex maximus”,until his death. This is a title the emporers held as head of the Pagan priesthood.
5) After gaining victory in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, a triumphal arch—the Arch of Constantine—was built to celebrate; the arch is decorated with images of Victoria and sacrifices to gods like Apollo, Diana, or Hercules, but contains no Christian symbolism.
6) In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the “venerable day of the sun” which includes was part of the worship of the sun.Council of Nicea was called by Constantine to deal with the question of whether Jesus was God as we now know or was he a man as many in the eastern part of the empire believed. A man named Arius was the leader of this movement.
The man in charge of running the meeting was the religious confidant of Constantine, Hosius of Cordova. At the end, Constantine said, whether with actual words or body language, that anyone who refused to sign the creed would be excommunicated from the church and exiled from the empire. In the end only 2 held firm to thier belief in Jesus being a man. And they paid for thier stance!Even after the council was disbanded many of those who voted with Constantine wrote and taught the total opposite. They simply didn't want to stand up to the emporer. Of course who would want to be exiled? This included Eusibius, who would later write a glowing biography of Constantine and became the “Father” of church history. Some scholors believe that the many quotes about Jesus that appear in the works of “Josephus” were actually written by Eusibius. They can't say for sure, but those quotes don't show up in the works of Josephus until the time of Eusibius. I wonder what else was added to church history.
It would be almost another 100 years before the Holy Spirit became part of the God head. However the question remains, Is Jesus really God or did these men make him out to be God? Can we trust these men, especially with a man like Constantine overseeing everything and people like Eusibius writing it down?
Now I still believe the way to God is through Christ. Jesus may not be God, in my opinion, but he taught the way. I believe that Christ lives in and through me as Paul taught.
I hope you consider these words and don't just brush them off with the religious rhetoric that from my experience the church teaches.
God blessGol,
I have not read any of your previous post, that I remember, but you have spoken well in this last post here.
Please keep believing this and you will do well.
The most basic question that anyone debating 'God' is…”What is God”?
Of course, God is a Title, so what does it represent.
[An Aside…, I'm just watching a science program that tells of a new material from which scientist 'will' be making 'an electroconductive rope' that will stretch from earth into space to bring unlimited solar power down to earth.
This reminds me of Revelation where it is said that man will make lightening come down from heaven in the sight of men]The Title 'God' represents: 'The most Supreme [in their field]', 'The Ultimate [of their kind]', 'The Complete [of the Complete]'…
So how many 'Supremes', 'Ultimates' and 'Completes' are there, can there be?
Clearly, Only One.
Yet there are many who have the ability to fulfill the first of those conditions: To be Supremes in their field. This is without doubt for a it can beasily be said, for instance, that an 'Expert' is Supreme, but those same do not fulfill the second condition of 'Ultimate', for even as that one is supreme for a while they are succeeded by another at a later time and therefore cannot be ultimate…and even one who is said to be 'ultimate', will also admit in themselves, in a moment of full honesty, that, even they, are not 'Complete' that there are things that they do not know, even with their Supremacy in their field, their ultimacy of their kind.
Did Jesus fulfill all these conditions:
Supreme?, Yes
Ultimate?, Yes
Complete?, No, for even he himself said 'Of that day, noone knows except the Father' and further more he is given 'power and authority' and gives back that 'power and authority', so if he gives 'back' to his Father, something that his Father gave him, how then can he be 'Complete'.So, who then 'IS' Supreme, Ultimate AND Complete?
Well, Scriptures tells us the answer: The Father, YHVH.
The Father is, without doubt, Supreme.
The Father is, without doubt, Ultimate.
And
The Father is, without doubt, Complete.Therefore He, the Father, is the definitive God: 'The God', 'The Mighty God', 'Almighty God', 'The Amighty'.
All else can under Him and after Him can only be an 'indefinite God' denoted 'god', 'a god', 'a God', 'Mighty God'(Note: Not Almighty…)
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 04 2010,12:12) Adam and JA………Good Posts brothers. peace and love to you and yours Adam. and JA………………gene
Thank you very much brothers Gene and JustAskin.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,06:42) Hi SF,
Study the Word first.
Fanciful theories diminish when you do.
I posed questions, i made no other comment. =)If i have studied the word, and you have,
and i know God, and you know God,Than we are both fools, in Gods eyes.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 03 2010,22:38) How Jesus became God? This is how a christian coments; We are often taught by our church's that from the beginning followers of Jesus believed that he was God. However, that is not the case. In fact, for 300 years followers of Jesus fought over this subject. Sometimes literaly to the death. In fact Athanasius, known as the defender of the faith, defended it by having many of those who disagreed with his side killed. Doesn't sound very much like Jesus does it? Let's take a look at what the Bible says first. Then we can look at some historical evidence.
1) Does Jesus ever claim to be God? Often John 14:6 is given to us to say yes. “I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes tothe Father except through me.” Jesus goes on to say that if you know Jesus you know the Father, and that the Father is in Jesus and that Jesus is in the Father. So they are equal right? John 14:28 adds, “the Father is Greater than I am” So did Jesus lie? How can he be the second part of the Trinity equal to the Father and the Father still greater that Jesus? A very difficult question to answer, especially if you are a Bible literalist.
Could it be in the first section that Jesus is saying that they (Jesus and the Father) are one in purpose? (no I am not a Morman) He asks in the Garden of Gethsemane that we could all be one. Does that mean that he is asking that we all be God or that we be of one purpose? He even states in John 17:3 that Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the ONLY TRUE God, AND Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (capitals mine)
2) Here are some other verses that tell of the relationship between the Father and Jesus. After reading them, can you truly say that Jesus is equal to the Father?
John 12:49 Jesus says that he takes commands from the Father
Luke 10:22 says that all things have been given to him by the Father
John 3:35 The Father has placed everything in the Sons hands
John 6:24 The Father sent Jesus
John 8:28 The Father taught Jesus
John 12:49 Jesus speaks for the father, not his own words
John 14:31 Jesus does exactly what the Father commands him to do
John 5:24″I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life”
Over and over again, Jesus submits himself to the Father not as an equal, but as a servant doing his God's will.Are you ready for some basic history? Here we go.
Jesus did not officially become God until the council of Nicea 325 A.D. under the rule of Constantine. Today, many believe that Constantine was a Christian. The following happened after he so called saw the sign of the cross in the sky that said “Conquer by this.” meaning to conquer by Jesus, the Prince of Peace. Does that make sense? He saw the “sign” in 312 A.D.
1) Had his son Licinius executed 320
2) Had Crispus another son executed 326 by “cold poison”
3) Had his wife Fausta put to death in an “overheated bath”. Some say at the request of his “Christian” mother Helena 326
4) He continued to keep the title “pontifex maximus”,until his death. This is a title the emporers held as head of the Pagan priesthood.
5) After gaining victory in the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, a triumphal arch—the Arch of Constantine—was built to celebrate; the arch is decorated with images of Victoria and sacrifices to gods like Apollo, Diana, or Hercules, but contains no Christian symbolism.
6) In 321, Constantine instructed that Christians and non-Christians should be united in observing the “venerable day of the sun” which includes was part of the worship of the sun.Council of Nicea was called by Constantine to deal with the question of whether Jesus was God as we now know or was he a man as many in the eastern part of the empire believed. A man named Arius was the leader of this movement.
The man in charge of running the meeting was the religious confidant of Constantine, Hosius of Cordova. At the end, Constantine said, whether with actual words or body language, that anyone who refused to sign the creed would be excommunicated from the church and exiled from the empire. In the end only 2 held firm to thier belief in Jesus being a man. And they paid for thier stance!Even after the council was disbanded many of those who voted with Constantine wrote and taught the total opposite. They simply didn't want to stand up to the emporer. Of course who would want to be exiled? This included Eusibius, who would later write a glowing biography of Constantine and became the “Father” of church history. Some scholors believe that the many quotes about Jesus that appear in the works of “Josephus” were actually written by Eusibius. They can't say for sure, but those quotes don't show up in the works of Josephus until the time of Eusibius. I wonder what else was added to church history.
It would be almost another 100 years before the Holy Spirit became part of the God head. However the question remains, Is Jesus really God or did these men make him out to be God? Can we trust these men, especially with a man like Constantine overseeing everything and people like Eusibius writing it down?
Now I still believe the way to God is through Christ. Jesus may not be God, in my opinion, but he taught the way. I believe that Christ lives in and through me as Paul taught.
I hope you consider these words and don't just brush them off with the religious rhetoric that from my experience the church teaches.
God bless
Question:John 10:
How is it that Jesus states that the Father is greater than all, and than say he is one?SF,
To say that one is one has two meanings.A cake cut in two is still one cake by substance but it is not one cake by part.
The original cake is now not the original cake. It has been divided and, physically, can never be put back as the original cake, no matter how minute the scientific, biological or chemical attempt.
Therefore, the divided cake is worth less than the whole cake (The sum of the parts is less than the whole)Now this is earthly. So what of the Spiritual?
God is Spirit. And all things come from God.All things are in God, from God and of God.
So God is always whole at all times because He is never divided 'outside' of Himself…indeed, there is no 'outside' of God.Within God there are many aspects (In my Fathers house there are many mansions…) These aspects include subordinate spirit creations, spirits from the spirit, Sons of God. Theses also, are part of God, so God is still whole, still one God.
Now, God creates Man and puts His Spirit into Man and makes that Man independent. So now God is not whole, except that as long as Man holds to His ways he will be part of God and God is once again 'Whole' (There is nothing able to be lost during the 'parting' nor in the union, unlike with the cake. As it is cut, parts are altered, moved, lost as crumbs, smeared onto the knife, squished together or part.)
Jesus is in perfect union with the Father, the Spirit of the Father is ALWAYS in union with the Father…it is HIS Spirit (What is the problem with this to Trinitarians. A Man has a Spiritm Jesus has a Spirit, The Father has a Spirit, the Father made us in His image…so..by Trinitarian thinking, Jesus is the Image of his Father and that makes him As God, his Father. Man is the image of God but is not AS God our Father!?)
So AS One, that deal with the spiritophysical.
What else, then, can ONE mean.
Let us sing as ONE… Are we then ONE body? Yes, and No.
Yes, we are 'Of One Accord', 'Of One Purpose', 'a united body of singers aiming to make a single performance from our disparate parts'.
No, because we are all individuals, dressed differently, talk differently, think differently, eat differently, have different family, or not. The One is only in the 'purpose', the purpose of singing in union.
So, Jesus is a separate being from the Father, as we are a separate being from him, from Him and from each other of man….but we can be AS ONE in purpose of uniting with the Father, God, in purpose of Worshipping the Father, God.
When this occurs we are said to be, once again, 'Sons of God'.
I have said many times in this forum,'To walk in the ways of God is to be a Son of God'
Think of God as ENERGY.
Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It is only transformed from one state to another.
Coal is stored energy, made from compressed vegitation, trees, trees are made by energy from the Sun…. Coal, when burned, releases heat energy, also light.
The Sun is heat and light.All elements in the universe is composed of energy, energy that cannot be created nor destroyed but only transformed.
It is power and God is complete power, cimplete energy, the source, the giver and the receiver of energy, of power.
All power, authority, creation, and, ultimate destruction, comes from within God, from Him, to Him and of Him.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 04 2010,19:30) SF,
To say that one is one has two meanings.A cake cut in two is still one cake by substance but it is not one cake by part.
The original cake is now not the original cake. It has been divided and, physically, can never be put back as the original cake, no matter how minute the scientific, biological or chemical attempt.
Therefore, the divided cake is worth less than the whole cake (The sum of the parts is less than the whole)Now this is earthly. So what of the Spiritual?
God is Spirit. And all things come from God.All things are in God, from God and of God.
So God is always whole at all times because He is never divided 'outside' of Himself…indeed, there is no 'outside' of God.Within God there are many aspects (In my Fathers house there are many mansions…) These aspects include subordinate spirit creations, spirits from the spirit, Sons of God. Theses also, are part of God, so God is still whole, still one God.
Now, God creates Man and puts His Spirit into Man and makes that Man independent. So now God is not whole, except that as long as Man holds to His ways he will be part of God and God is once again 'Whole' (There is nothing able to be lost during the 'parting' nor in the union, unlike with the cake. As it is cut, parts are altered, moved, lost as crumbs, smeared onto the knife, squished together or part.)
Jesus is in perfect union with the Father, the Spirit of the Father is ALWAYS in union with the Father…it is HIS Spirit (What is the problem with this to Trinitarians. A Man has a Spiritm Jesus has a Spirit, The Father has a Spirit, the Father made us in His image…so..by Trinitarian thinking, Jesus is the Image of his Father and that makes him As God, his Father. Man is the image of God but is not AS God our Father!?)
So AS One, that deal with the spiritophysical.
What else, then, can ONE mean.
Let us sing as ONE… Are we then ONE body? Yes, and No.
Yes, we are 'Of One Accord', 'Of One Purpose', 'a united body of singers aiming to make a single performance from our disparate parts'.
No, because we are all individuals, dressed differently, talk differently, think differently, eat differently, have different family, or not. The One is only in the 'purpose', the purpose of singing in union.
So, Jesus is a separate being from the Father, as we are a separate being from him, from Him and from each other of man….but we can be AS ONE in purpose of uniting with the Father, God, in purpose of Worshipping the Father, God.
When this occurs we are said to be, once again, 'Sons of God'.
I have said many times in this forum,'To walk in the ways of God is to be a Son of God'
Think of God as ENERGY.
Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. It is only transformed from one state to another.
Coal is stored energy, made from compressed vegitation, trees, trees are made by energy from the Sun…. Coal, when burned, releases heat energy, also light.
The Sun is heat and light.All elements in the universe is composed of energy, energy that cannot be created nor destroyed but only transformed.
It is power and God is complete power, cimplete energy, the source, the giver and the receiver of energy, of power.
All power, authority, creation, and, ultimate destruction, comes from within God, from Him, to Him and of Him.
ZzzzJAzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzYour post is to long…………
zzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZJAZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz
zzzzzzzzzzzz
God is beyond energy he is Life.
Jesus is the Image of the invisible God,
we are like the image of God.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzznice and short.
Just askin for a piece of that Cake,
Because God cannot be divided into two,
For God just participating in time, is division of the eternal.Quote (JustAskin @ June 04 2010,10:17) Gol, I have not read any of your previous post, that I remember, but you have spoken well in this last post here.
Please keep believing this and you will do well.
The most basic question that anyone debating 'God' is…”What is God”?
Of course, God is a Title, so what does it represent.
[An Aside…, I'm just watching a science program that tells of a new material from which scientist 'will' be making 'an electroconductive rope' that will stretch from earth into space to bring unlimited solar power down to earth.
This reminds me of Revelation where it is said that man will make lightening come down from heaven in the sight of men]The Title 'God' represents: 'The most Supreme [in their field]', 'The Ultimate [of their kind]', 'The Complete [of the Complete]'…
So how many 'Supremes', 'Ultimates' and 'Completes' are there, can there be?
Clearly, Only One.
Yet there are many who have the ability to fulfill the first of those conditions: To be Supremes in their field. This is without doubt for a it can beasily be said, for instance, that an 'Expert' is Supreme, but those same do not fulfill the second condition of 'Ultimate', for even as that one is supreme for a while they are succeeded by another at a later time and therefore cannot be ultimate…and even one who is said to be 'ultimate', will also admit in themselves, in a moment of full honesty, that, even they, are not 'Complete' that there are things that they do not know, even with their Supremacy in their field, their ultimacy of their kind.
Did Jesus fulfill all these conditions:
Supreme?, Yes
Ultimate?, Yes
Complete?, No, for even he himself said 'Of that day, noone knows except the Father' and further more he is given 'power and authority' and gives back that 'power and authority', so if he gives 'back' to his Father, something that his Father gave him, how then can he be 'Complete'.So, who then 'IS' Supreme, Ultimate AND Complete?
Well, Scriptures tells us the answer: The Father, YHVH.
The Father is, without doubt, Supreme.
The Father is, without doubt, Ultimate.
And
The Father is, without doubt, Complete.Therefore He, the Father, is the definitive God: 'The God', 'The Mighty God', 'Almighty God', 'The Amighty'.
All else can under Him and after Him can only be an 'indefinite God' denoted 'god', 'a god', 'a God', 'Mighty God'(Note: Not Almighty…)
Thank you very much for your appreciation. But I could not get your logics on God fully . If you believe that there is only one God where is the question of calling others God or a god? If at all there is one God the title 'God' should be applicable to him alone and to no one else. This is where I differ from most of the JWs, Arians and preexistence believers and those who believe in personal evil Satan and devil who think that there is another being called god of this world who is also Satan.Peace to you
AdamGol,
There is a serious problem with many people who are so earthly they cannot look up from the bare brown earth and see the glory of heavens.
The word 'GOD' is no different to any other word.
God is a TITLE. Why is that hard to understand.
Do you get fearful of 'Mr', 'Sir', 'Miss', 'King'…
God means 'one who is… As I have written'.
Because there is ONLY one that is Supreme, Ultimate and Complete, we denote that one by using the word 'God' with a capital 'G', or all caps.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Now, because there are others who are also Supreme, Ultimate but not Complete, these are also 'God' but incomplete, inferior Gods, lacking some aspect of greatness, it is unfortunate that the same word 'God' but with no capital letters, is used to denote them.
Therefore, and any sentient, reverent person writing in any manner, will write any reference to the ONE who is Supreme, Ultimate and Complete, as “God”, or “GOD” and denote ALL other refrences to lesser beings of Supremecy, Ultimacy but incompleteness, as 'god', 'gods', …
Gol, if you want to state a 'personal title' to that ONE, then use HIS name, YHVH.
Now, this 'name/title', not the 'word/Title' is to be only applied to Him.
Gol, this is elementary Scriptures.
Gol,
Is it written in some place, 'even as you are lifted up, you throw yourself down'.If not then it should be… Oh look, there it is! Right above this sentence…
Quote (gollamudi @ June 04 2010,20:54) If you believe that there is only one God where is the question of calling others God or a god? If at all there is one God the title 'God' should be applicable to him alone and to no one else. This is where I differ from most of the JWs, Arians and preexistence believers and those who believe in personal evil Satan and devil who think that there is another being called god of this world who is also Satan.
Hi Adam,There is only one of the many gods mentioned in the Bible who is ever called Almighty God. His name is JHVH.
“god” just means a “mighty one” in Biblical terms. Mighty men were called god, angels were called god, Jesus was called god, Satan was called god.
Only JHVH is called “the God of gods” and the “Amighty God”.
So when Jesus calls the Father “the only true God”, he is not saying that he, Satan, or the angels are not “mighty ones” or that they are “false mighty ones”. He is saying that the Father is the only Almighty God.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,08:11) Gol, There is a serious problem with many people who are so earthly they cannot look up from the bare brown earth and see the glory of heavens.
The word 'GOD' is no different to any other word.
God is a TITLE. Why is that hard to understand.
Do you get fearful of 'Mr', 'Sir', 'Miss', 'King'…
God means 'one who is… As I have written'.
Because there is ONLY one that is Supreme, Ultimate and Complete, we denote that one by using the word 'God' with a capital 'G', or all caps.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Now, because there are others who are also Supreme, Ultimate but not Complete, these are also 'God' but incomplete, inferior Gods, lacking some aspect of greatness, it is unfortunate that the same word 'God' but with no capital letters, is used to denote them.
Therefore, and any sentient, reverent person writing in any manner, will write any reference to the ONE who is Supreme, Ultimate and Complete, as “God”, or “GOD” and denote ALL other refrences to lesser beings of Supremecy, Ultimacy but incompleteness, as 'god', 'gods', …
Gol, if you want to state a 'personal title' to that ONE, then use HIS name, YHVH.
Now, this 'name/title', not the 'word/Title' is to be only applied to Him.
Gol, this is elementary Scriptures.
I totally agree about the Title point you made.I say that often. God is a title.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ June 06 2010,05:11) Quote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,08:11) Gol, There is a serious problem with many people who are so earthly they cannot look up from the bare brown earth and see the glory of heavens.
The word 'GOD' is no different to any other word.
God is a TITLE. Why is that hard to understand.
Do you get fearful of 'Mr', 'Sir', 'Miss', 'King'…
God means 'one who is… As I have written'.
Because there is ONLY one that is Supreme, Ultimate and Complete, we denote that one by using the word 'God' with a capital 'G', or all caps.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Now, because there are others who are also Supreme, Ultimate but not Complete, these are also 'God' but incomplete, inferior Gods, lacking some aspect of greatness, it is unfortunate that the same word 'God' but with no capital letters, is used to denote them.
Therefore, and any sentient, reverent person writing in any manner, will write any reference to the ONE who is Supreme, Ultimate and Complete, as “God”, or “GOD” and denote ALL other refrences to lesser beings of Supremecy, Ultimacy but incompleteness, as 'god', 'gods', …
Gol, if you want to state a 'personal title' to that ONE, then use HIS name, YHVH.
Now, this 'name/title', not the 'word/Title' is to be only applied to Him.
Gol, this is elementary Scriptures.
I totally agree about the Title point you made.I say that often. God is a title.
Yes “God” is a title. And the title also belongs to Christ. Deuteronmy 6:16 says that they tempted God in Massah. Paul said that it was Christ they tempted (1 Cor. 10).The implication is clear!
the Roo
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