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Deuteronomy 6:4 declares:
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
Literally it reads, “the Lord our God is Lord alone.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage….on=NKJV
Paul said that there is “one Lord” (Christ). Moses said that God is “Lord alone.” That Moses was speaking about Christ is substantiated by the context for we read in verse 16:
16 You shall not tempt the LORD your God as you tempted Him in Massah.
Guess what guys and gals. Paul said that it was Christ who was “tempted.”
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
God is Lord ALONE. Paul said that there is one Lord (Christ). God was tempted by the people. Paul said that it was Christ who was tempted.
No degree in rocket science is needed.
Jack
Thnker……….Kangaroo Jack? well that is fitting for you, Jumping around all over the place dodging direct questions.
Still love you brother……………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 21 2010,03:08) Thnker……….Kangaroo Jack? well that is fitting for you, Jumping around all over the place dodging direct questions. Still love you brother……………………….gene
Gene,WJ predicted your comment. I noticed that you did not reply to my OP. Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “Lord ALONE.” Jude 4 says that Christ is the “only Lord”.
Deuteronomy 6:16 says they tempted God. Paul said that it was Christ they tempted (1 Cor. 10:9).
Shouldn't you answer these points before accusing KJ of jumping around and dodging questions?
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 21 2010,03:39) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 21 2010,03:08) Thnker……….Kangaroo Jack? well that is fitting for you, Jumping around all over the place dodging direct questions. Still love you brother……………………….gene
Gene,WJ predicted your comment. I noticed that you did not reply to my OP. Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “Lord ALONE.” Jude 4 says that Christ is the “only Lord”.
Deuteronomy 6:10 says they tempted God. Paul said that it was Christ they tempted (1 Cor. 10:9).
Shouldn't you answer these points before accusing KJ of jumping around and dodging questions?
Jack
TTKangouruyou change picture but not your personality,
any way on Deut 6;4 and 1 cor 10;9 there is no conflict is God the father speaking trough
could be the WORD could be a message from heaven,does that change anything ??
if the boss says to is manager tell this ……..to do that ……..would this have less power than if he himself would tell it ??
i do not think so.
but i know you have your own agenda for your respond.
Quote Jude 1
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:2Mercy unto you, and peace and love be multiplied.
3Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4For there are certain men who have crept in unawares, who were foreordained of old for this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who believed not.
6And the angels who kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great Day–
Please can someone show me where Jesus is being called “Master” here. Ok, so other renderings say it – but then there is a mexican stand off (an Empasse, to you KJ) because who is to say that one rendering is more correct than the other – except … what of it – I scarcely can contain myself over what KJ is straining himself at.
What if it says “Our ONLY Master” – what of it? I just don't get it – What are you wanting to say?
KJ, you protested loudly in another thread that you wanted me to declare that Jesus was “Our ONLY LOrd and Master” and I refused but while the forum was down I had a look – and I can't see what you lawding about, get a grip man, master yourself – you'll be better off after doing that, perhaps – get some of your frustration out.
Tell me again, What was it you wanted to know – and Why? Did Mike get you that frustrated – Don't waste yourself on me if that is whatyou are thinking…
Also, Where in Dueterononmy 6:10 does it say that 'they' tempted God. Can God – the Father – be tempted – God OWNS ALL THINGS – what would one tempt Him with – loyalty, worship – He gave one life and desires Godly worship in return – false worship is worthless.
Yes, Christ was tempted – glad you said it cos WJ claimed that jesus COULD NOT BE TEMPTED because he was PERFECT… but Scriptures clearly shows – [God']sTruth – CLEARLY shows that Satan tempted him but He prevailed against Sinning.
WJ, KJ,
Do you not realise that you are beginning to speak Truth.
Please Everyone – Recognise when the adversay speaks truth and do not fall into the trap of deriding them when they do just for the sake of saying – you must be wrong cos you are a trinitarian.
Believe Truth where Truth is spoken – But recognise Truth first then believe it – BUT beware of the switchback ; Speaking Truth, then when the audience is captured – speaking falsely – cos they will then accuse you of abandoning their [false] truth after believing their [True] Truth.
Test the Spirit and 'Be careful out there'…
JustAskin said:
Quote Please can someone show me where Jesus is being called “Master” here. Ok, so other renderings say it – but then there is a mexican stand off (an Empasse, to you KJ) because who is to say that one rendering is more correct than the other – except … what of it – I scarcely can contain myself over what KJ is straining himself at.
Are you now denying that Jesus is Lord JA? Will you fall on Mike's side and deny that Jesus reigns and say that He is a god in the “same sense” as satan? Just more of your silly little word games. First, the Greek word is “despotes” which means “ABSOLUTE ruler”. Why do you make me repeat myself so much? Second, Jesus Christ is called our “only Master AND Lord”. Do you question that the second word “Lord” means that He is your Master?Uh, don't forget that the anti-trinitarian NWT says, “only Owner and Lord”.
JA:
Quote Also, Where in Dueterononmy 6:10 does it say that 'they' tempted God. Can God – the Father – be tempted
I gave you the wrong verse. It is verse 16:16 “You shall not tempt the LORD your God as you tempted Him in Massah.
You say that the Father cannot be tempted. So by your own logic the “Lord God” who was tempted was Christ. Thanks for helping me out JA.
Paul said that it was Christ who they tempted (1 Corinthians 10:9). Therefore, Christ is the “Lord your God” they tempted in Manasseh.
Are you now denying that Jesus is Lord JA? Will you fall on Mike's side and deny that Jesus reigns and say that He is a god in the “same sense” as satan?
Jack
Hi KJ:
The meaning of the word Christ is the anointed one.
This is what happened at Massah:
Quote Exd 17:1 And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and [there was] no water for the people to drink.
Exd 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
Exd 17:3 And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore [is] this [that] thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?
Exd 17:4 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.
Exd 17:5 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go.
Exd 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
Exd 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?Love in Christ,
MartyKJ,
I have to admit I still don't know what you are on about.What is your aim, what is your point, what will you achieve by someone, …somewhere…sometime….actually agreeing with you.
I haven't been following your dispute with Mike very closely so I have little idea why you attack me for not answering for Mike. Why, because you can't defeat him, so you think you can try with me.
KJ, since when have you done that. Are you hoping for a first … There's always a chance!
From what I have read, Jesus is our Lord and YHVH is our God.
Aside from that, believe what you want, just don't try to pursuade others into incorrect doctrine.
I have already stated that Jesus is our Master, at one stage, and our Brother at another. Is our Brother our Master. And by the way, the 'our' is pertaining to the Apostles. I make no claim on secured inheritance, but only the Hope of it.
KJ…………”THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD, SIT AT MY RIGHT UNTIL (I) MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL”. Now who is the Lord you are talking about, which one/, or is it both? I have to agree with JA and say, “get a grip man” < now that was true humor.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2010,00:41) KJ…………”THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD, SIT AT MY RIGHT UNTIL (I) MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL”. Now who is the Lord you are talking about, which one/, or is it both? I have to agree with JA and say, “get a grip man” < now that was true humor.
Gene,We have been over this a thousand times. David replied to Jehovah in verse 5 saying, “My Adonai (God) is at your right hand.”
Therefore, to David his “Lord” (vs.1) was also his “Adonai” (God) in verse 5.
Now please answer my two points:
Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “Lord ALONE.” Jude 4 says that Christ is the “only Lord”.
Deuteronomy 6:16 says they tempted God. Paul said that it was Christ they tempted (1 Cor. 10:9).
Are you going to deal with these or not?
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 21 2010,10:27) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2010,00:41) KJ…………”THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD, SIT AT MY RIGHT UNTIL (I) MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL”. Now who is the Lord you are talking about, which one/, or is it both? I have to agree with JA and say, “get a grip man” < now that was true humor.
Gene,We have been over this a thousand times. David replied to Jehovah in verse 5 saying, “My Adonai (God) is at your right hand.”
Therefore, to David his “Lord” (vs.1) was also his “Adonai” (God) in verse 5.
Now please answer my two points:
Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “Lord ALONE.” Jude 4 says that Christ is the “only Lord”.
Deuteronomy 6:16 says they tempted God. Paul said that it was Christ they tempted (1 Cor. 10:9).
Are you going to deal with these or not?
Jack
JackSo obvious and true, but they will put on their “Unitarian and Arian” glasses to block out the light of the truth.
WJ
Gene, TT, WJ,
What is the meaning of the Word “Massah”? Is it not “To Test” – Test and Tempt are not the same thing but are close cousins, so it is important to distinquish closely where each is most appropriate.
James 1:13 states that “God cannot be tempted (God – not Jesus – Cannot be Tempted) by evil, nor does he tempt anyone'” and for why should God Tempt anyone – what is his gain from doing so – Nothing…
With what can anyone TEMPT God – with his own property – The only thing that God desires from us is Worship of Himself – If we Worship Him ALL Other Things will follow. God tempting people to worship him would be a fruitless exercise – False Worship – God requires pure free-willed [Free-Willed; of our own choice, not coerced, because we see the virtue…] worship.
Who is it that was Tempted at Massah: “Is the LORD among us or not [for we have not water …]”? – this is a Test – a Testing Question.
Now, read that and ask yourself : “How does that read as 'Tempted” – Surely it should read “Tested” – it is a question: “Prove you are with us” – a test.
Put “Tempt” back in “Prove your are with us” – Where is the TEMPTATION – Wheb you tempt someone you are OFFERING something that is not normally available to them, to make a gain by unnatural means.
Jesus was “Tempted” by Satan to abuse the powers given to him by his Father, to take Satan's kingdom in exchange for worship of Satan, to Save himself after jumping off a high building (If Jesus did jump off the building he would have killed himself – is he God? But he Satan knew that God would send his Angels to save him) – That is Tempted.
ADAM was TEMPTED to gain knowledge of Good and Evil – That is tempted.
Satan to adam: “If you believed that eating the fruit of the Tree would make you wise, would you eat it?” – That is Test – note the Question!!
Satan to Adam: “Eating the fruit of the tree that God told you not to eat from will make you wise – and God knows that.” – That is Temptation (For Satan knew that it wasn't the fruit that would kill Adam but the disobedience to God)Did not God himself say in Exodus 23:20:
“I will send MY angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites … Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.
Therefore, was it not Jesus (The Angel sent by God) speaking for God, and if so, then BOTH God and Jesus can claim to have been TeStEd, depending on the precedence of presence.
Just as “God created the heavens and the earth”/ “Jesus created the heavens and the earth” – Context – context – context…
Why does God call [Jesus] “My Angel”?
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 22 2010,02:27) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2010,00:41) KJ…………”THE LORD SAID UNTO MY LORD, SIT AT MY RIGHT UNTIL (I) MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL”. Now who is the Lord you are talking about, which one/, or is it both? I have to agree with JA and say, “get a grip man” < now that was true humor.
Gene,We have been over this a thousand times. David replied to Jehovah in verse 5 saying, “My Adonai (God) is at your right hand.”
Therefore, to David his “Lord” (vs.1) was also his “Adonai” (God) in verse 5.
Now please answer my two points:
Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “Lord ALONE.” Jude 4 says that Christ is the “only Lord”.
Deuteronomy 6:16 says they tempted God. Paul said that it was Christ they tempted (1 Cor. 10:9).
Are you going to deal with these or not?
Jack
But Ephesians 4 states:Quote 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 22 2010,02:27) Gene wrote:KJ…………”THE LORD
Now please answer my two points:Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “Lord ALONE.” Jude 4 says that Christ is the “only Lord”.
Deuteronomy 6:16 says they tempted God. Paul said that it was Christ they tempted (1 Cor. 10:9).
Are you going to deal with these or not?
Jack
Thinker……….I will deal with it , GOD is the ONLY TRUE LORD, but there are many God's and Lords. Anyone should understand that.Just as you should understand the JESUS SAID IN PRAYER SPEAKING TO SOMEONE OTHER THEM HIMSELF, “THOU ARE TO (ONLY) (TRUE ) GOD.” This is the true question an do you believe Jesus or Not.
Secondly…………..Jude said that CHRISTOS IS THE ONLY LORD. THE ANOINTING WAS (in) THE ANOINTED. “For it was Christ (the Anointing) not the person that followed Israel in the Wilderness, This Anointing was on Moses , the seventy elders, and was in the Angles also . ONE GOD , ONE Anointing. Working in divers way in different people and Beings , But the same anointing or CHRISTOS.
Tempting GOD is Tempting the Christos (SPIRIT) of GOD no matter who (IT) is in.
peace and love to you and yours……………gene
Quote Deuteronomy 6:4 declares: 4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
Literally it reads, “the Lord our God is Lord alone.”
It definitely does not LITERALLY read that.
First, notice the word “LORD” in capital letters. That signifies that God's name (Jehovah, YHWH) was originally there.It LITERALLY READS: Yehwah′ ’Elo·heh′nu Yehwah′ ’e·chadh′.
So, that would literally be: “Jehovah our God [is] Jehovah one.”
And so, a good translation would be: “Jehovah is our God, Jehovah is one [or, there is one Jehovah].”You have to change the actual words quite a bit to come up with your convoluted arguments.
Quote No degree in rocket science is needed. David,
So what's your point? The word “LORD” in capitals translates into Greek as “kurios” or “Lord” (lower case). The Greek Septuagint uses “kurios” in Deuteronomy 6:4
6:4 και ταυτα τα δικαιωματα και τα κριματα οσα ενετειλατο κυριος τοις υιοις ισραηλ εν τη ερημω εξελθοντων αυτων εκ γης αιγυπτου ακουε ισραηλ κυριος ο θεος ημων κυριος εις εστιν
See also Strong's #3069 which indicates that “Jehovah” was sometimes used for “Adonai” or “Lord.”
Therefore, Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “kurios” alone. Your own NWT in Jude 4 that Jesus Christ is the “only Kurios.”
David: You have to change the actual words quite a bit to come up with your convoluted arguments.
Jesus and the Apostles put their stamp of approval on the Septuagint David. The Septuagint uses “kurios” and Srong's says that “LORD” (Jehovah) is used for “Adonai” to avoid repitition.So it wouuld be Jesus, the Apostles, the translators of the Greek Septuagint and James Strong who come up with the “convoluted arguments”.
You are supposed to be one of the educated ones here David.
Kangaroo Jack
Gene said:
Quote Thinker……….I will deal with it , GOD is the ONLY TRUE LORD, but there are many God's and Lords. Anyone should understand that.
Gene,You just buried yourself dude! Jude 4 says that Jesus is our “only Master and Lord“. Are you saying that His Father is a “true” Lord but Jesus is a false Lord?
Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “Lord ALONE.” Jude 4 says that Jesus Christ is our “ONLY Master and Lord”.
What about this do you not understand?
Kangaroo Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 24 2010,08:56) So what's your point? The word “LORD” in capitals translates into Greek as “kurios” or “Lord” (lower case). The Greek Septuagint uses “kurios” in Deuteronomy 6:4
Hi All,You are wrong, Jack. The word LORD in any OT is put in place of YHWH, period. It doesn't “translate into” anything. Because by the time the septuagint was translated the Jews no longer thought it appropriate to say the divine name, they called Jehovah “God” or “Lord”. But the earliest MSS of the septuagint actually had the divine name written in Hebrew where it was in the OT. Little by little, scribes and translators figured, “Since we're saying Lord or God where YHWH is written, let's just start writing Lord or God instead of YHWH.”
I'm getting frustrated by all of this talk of Jesus being “Jehovah the Son” that was the messenger that went before the Israelites. There are problems with it.
Lighten up says it's perfectly natural for Jesus to be named “Jehovah Jr”, just like many sons have their father's names today. But I can't think of one instance in either the OT or the NT where a son had the same name as his father.
Another problem is that the Israelites knew of only one God – Jehovah the Father. And they knew that He was ONE. In the NT, we learn that there is still only ONE God, and that One is still the Father. So if the messenger and some of the “Jehovahs” mentioned in the Bible was actually Jesus as “Jehovah the Son”, then one of two things must be true. Either:
1. The person the Israelites worshipped as Jehovah their God was sometimes not really God at all, because only the Father is God, or
2. The Son IS the Father.Which is it?
Did Jehovah purposely trick the Israelites into worshipping His Son as God without telling them? Could God Almighty actually BE a messenger of God Almighty?
Jack says the first to third person wording explains that both Jehovah the Father and “Jehovah the Son” are the Jehovah's being referred to in various verses. I have asked why the writer didn't know there were two Jehovah's when he wrote it.
I was answered with, “Since the scriptures are inspired, it was God doing the writing, and the writer just wrote it how God inspred it.”
Okay. But wouldn't the Israelites later be able to read what was written and think, “Hey, it sounds like there are two Jehovahs – what gives?” Yet no one did. In fact, I don't think anyone figured out the mystery of the two Jehovahs until Jack and Kathi came across it.
Face it, the Israelites were STRICTLY monotheistic – that's what set them apart from the pagans. It was only many years later that people started inserting pagan beliefs into the Jew's monotheistic belief system.
It was then that these pagans started learning how to insist that “only Lord and Master” must be taken literally, like there can never ever be anyone called lord again. And at the same time, they had to come up with “mystery Babylon” reasons why even though Jesus and Paul say that the Father alone is our only God, it doesn't really mean what it says.
They even have explanations for why our God is also Jesus' God and he even still calls Him “my God”, but somehow Jesus is still equal God with Him.
And how when it clearly explains that our God begat a Son, it doesn't really mean that Jesus is God's Son – it just means that one of the co-equal persons in the godhead took the title of Son, while another took the title of Father.
Come on pagans! We were created in God's image. How many of us consist of three separate yet co-equal persons?
peace and love,
mikeQuote So what's your point? The word “LORD” in capitals translates into Greek as “kurios” or “Lord” (lower case). The Greek Septuagint uses “kurios” in Deuteronomy 6:4 –Thinker
Quote You are supposed to be one of the educated ones here David. –Thinker
Ah, the irony. Where to begin?
The Greek Septuagint fragments from the first century show the tetragrammaton in many places in Deuteronomy.
By the 4th century, those same verses in the Codex Alexandrinus have replaced the divine name with “Lord.”Frankly, who cares what the later versions of the Septuagint did? Don't we care with what was originally written?
We know God's name originally occurred in the Hebrew scriptures almost 7000 times. Who cares if a Bible translation today removes it and replaces it with “lord”? What proof is that?This is perhaps the most ironic post I have heard from you, in that you make such obvious mistakes, but at the same time question my intelligence.
Quote Therefore, Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “kurios” alone. Your own NWT in Jude 4 that Jesus Christ is the “only Kurios.” So, if we keep our logic consistent, does that mean that Abraham and others who were called “lord” are what…part of the trinity?
Quote Deuteronomy 6:4 says that God is “Lord ALONE.”
Please read a book and then stop saying things like this. The original Deut 6:4 most certainly did not say that. Or even ask other trinitarians.
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