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Hi OS,
Tongues is only one of the gifts and perhaps a lesser one. But Paul still said
“I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you”[1 cor 14.18]
and
” I wish that you all spoke in tongues” [1Cor 14 .5]Was he speaking also to us? then we should listen not to me but to him.
“I wish that you all spoke in tongues.” ?
Paul was writing to the congregation of God that was in Corinth. They had a specific problem. Paul was writing to correct that problem.
While All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for us (2 tim 3:16) not every scripture applies to everyone.
In answer to your question Nick, we know he was speaking to the corinthians of that time, and not us, because the speaking of tongues as a gift from GOD have already ceased.
david.
Maybe I should have wrote: Not every scripture applies directly to everyone, instead of writing: Not every scripture applies to everyone.
Don't get me wrong, all scripture is beneficial. I'm saying not all scripture directly applies to everyone.
We have other scriptures that must give us pause when looking at 1 Cor 14:5.David,
Is He that which is PERFECT COME YET( 1 Cor.13:10?
But then, the JWs believe that Messiah came in ” Kingdom power ” in 1914 and that all these gifts ceased.
I already posted this under the topic of The Gospel but it was ignored.
“””Now I pose that you will explain the elaborate doctrine of the JWs concerning the tree that was cut down and the bands that was put on the stump where the Gentile kingdoms of this world would rule for 1,260 years which the JWs claim ended in the year 1914, and Messiah came in secret and invisible and the Kingdom of Yah was set up ?
Well, the fact is, that Gentile kingdoms are still ruling this world with their own governments, and the final decree that the Kingdom of Yah will be implimented at Messiah's literal coming at the LAST TRUMPET( Matt.24:31; 1 Thess.4:16; 1 Cor.15:52; Rev.11:15).
In which the true Gospel of Yah's coming Kingdom was and is still to be preached( Matt.24:14), which includes the message of their true Names( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Acts 4:10-12; Rom.10:13), concerning salvation of man, and that the Promises were and are immortal Eternal life on this earth as was Promised to Abraham and all the faithful obedient( Heb.11), in which even they have not received those promises yet either( Heb.11:13, 39). “””
Eliyah C.
Eliyah said:
“David,
Is He that which is PERFECT COME YET( 1 Cor.13:10?”Now I get to play your role and tell you Eliyah that you totally ignored my post that discussed that scripture. Does your Bible say: “HE that which is perfect comes.”? You should go back and look at the context of that verse and consider what it is actually discussing. Perhaps reading the post that I gave on that scripture will help.
David.
Nick wrote:
Quote Hi One Spirit,
What does “having the Spirit” mean to you in your experience?Your question misses the point. “My experience” is not scripture. “My experience” could be nothing more than self-deception. What is more important is what scripture says about what “having the Spirit” means. If “my experience” lines up with that, then I may have something to share.
Nick quoted:
Quote Jn 20.22
“He breathed on them and said ' Receive the Holy Spirit..”I am glad that you picked out this verse. It is a good starting point for understanding the Spirit. The word used for “spirit” in this verse literally means “breath”, (in both the Hebrew and Greek).
Quote Lexicon Results for ruwach (Strong's 07307)
Hebrew for 07307
Pronunciation Guide
ruwach {roo'-akh}TWOT Reference Root Word
TWOT – 2131a from 07306
Part of Speech
n f
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) wind, breath, mind, spirita) breath
b) wind
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
f) spirit
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
So the act of “breathing” on the disciples is highly symbolic in regards to receiving the Spirit. (See Job 33:4 for more on this aspect of the Spirit.) Now look at Job 32:8.
Quote Job 32:
8 But it is the spirit in a man,
the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.Here you see a strong association with breath of the Almighty in man and the mind of a man. Paul makes this same association between the Spirit of YHWH and the Mind of YHWH. Compare Isaiah 40:13 to Romans 11:34:
Quote Isaiah 40:13
Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD,
Or as His counselor has taught Him?Romans 11:34
“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”At its very core, having the Spirit of YHWH is about having the Mind of YHWH taking over our own. Take a quick look at what people who are filled with the Spirit do:
Quote Acts 2:
4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.Skipping past the miracle to the meat…
Quote
Acts 2:
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.”
…Acts 2:
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.The most important part of being filled with the Spirit is the message that was brought by Peter through a direct connection to the Mind of YHWH.
More examples:
Quote Acts 4:
8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! …”Again, Peter is filled with the Spirit before delivering an important message.
Quote Acts 4:
31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.Same model here as well.
Of course, there are other aspects to the Spirit, but the most important part of “having the Spirit” is having the Truth from the Mind of YHWH.
That is why I ask you to show us your doctrine from scripture Nick, because if your teaching does not derive from scripture, then you do not “have the Spirit”, no matter how many times you have “spoken in tongues”.
Quote Hi OS,
Tongues is only one of the gifts and perhaps a lesser one. But Paul still said
“I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you”[1 cor 14.18]
and
” I wish that you all spoke in tongues” [1Cor 14 .5]Was he speaking also to us? then we should listen not to me but to him.
Nick,
I think that David addressed this already, but let me add this:Quote 1 Corinthians 11:6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.Do you make your wife cover her head?
Quote 1 Corinthains 14:
33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.Do you make your wife keep silent when in the assembly?
These instructions come from the same letter that you think instructs us to speak in tongues today. It is a letter that was written at a specific time to a specific congregation for very specific reasons. You can not assume that every instruction in there is applicable to believers today. What you can do is figure out the spiritual lesson behind the instructions, and apply them to today. As you like to say, “not in the letter, but in the spirit”.
Quote (david @ Oct. 05 2005,04:10) “I wish that you all spoke in tongues.” ? Paul was writing to the congregation of God that was in Corinth. They had a specific problem. Paul was writing to correct that problem.
While All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for us (2 tim 3:16) not every scripture applies to everyone.
In answer to your question Nick, we know he was speaking to the corinthians of that time, and not us, because the speaking of tongues as a gift from GOD have already ceased.
david.
Really david?
Is this true
or does it fit your denominational beliefs?Quote (david @ Oct. 05 2005,04:10) “I wish that you all spoke in tongues.” ? Paul was writing to the congregation of God that was in Corinth. They had a specific problem. Paul was writing to correct that problem.
While All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for us (2 tim 3:16) not every scripture applies to everyone.
In answer to your question Nick, we know he was speaking to the corinthians of that time, and not us, because the speaking of tongues as a gift from GOD have already ceased.
david.
Hi david,
Are there any other books of Paul that were only relevant to the time of writing ? If so we need to know lest we think “all scripture is inspired of God and is useful for teaching..”Quote (OneSpirit @ Oct. 05 2005,20:13) Quote Hi OS,
Tongues is only one of the gifts and perhaps a lesser one. But Paul still said
“I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you”[1 cor 14.18]
and
” I wish that you all spoke in tongues” [1Cor 14 .5]Was he speaking also to us? then we should listen not to me but to him.
Nick,
I think that David addressed this already, but let me add this:Quote 1 Corinthians 11:6
If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.Do you make your wife cover her head?
Quote 1 Corinthains 14:
33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.Do you make your wife keep silent when in the assembly?
These instructions come from the same letter that you think instructs us to speak in tongues today. It is a letter that was written at a specific time to a specific congregation for very specific reasons. You can not assume that every instruction in there is applicable to believers today. What you can do is figure out the spiritual lesson behind the instructions, and apply them to today. As you like to say, “not in the letter, but in the spirit”.
Hi OS,
You missed out the important context of 1Cor 11.16 concerning women's hair.
“But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God”Paul expresses an inspired opinion and not a 'law' here- and we know this because of this context. He accepts that there may be other views. The instruction for women to keep silent falls on the woman and not the husband or Paul would have said so.
Nick,
I am not going to argue with you about whether or not these commands are for all men of all times. I think that that is a ridiculous statement, afterall the entire context for these passages comes from:
Quote 1 Corinthians 7:1
Now for the matters you wrote about … .I would much rather see you address my other post above.
Hi OS,
As soon as you explain your experience of the Spirit, or failing that your knowledge about the Spirit, we can move onto what we can share so that we are not at cross purposes.Hi,
Those that do works in the name of Jesus cannot rely on those works alone as evidence of salvation. The name itself has power and authority and the sons of Sceva learned a painful lesson in this regard. Jesus must know us. He knows us when our names are written in heaven through being born again into his body.
Jesus said.
“Do not rejoice because the spirits obey you but rejoice because your names are written in heaven”
Our names must be written in the book of life and we need the witnesses of 1 Jn 5.7-9.David,
Quote Eliyah said: “David,
Is He that which is PERFECT COME YET( 1 Cor.13:10?”Now I get to play your role and tell you Eliyah that you totally ignored my post that discussed that scripture. Does your Bible say: “HE that which is perfect comes.”? You should go back and look at the context of that verse and consider what it is actually discussing. Perhaps reading the post that I gave on that scripture will help.
Don't get carried away David, however, where did you answer and reply to my post in the gospel topic?
Quote Now I pose that you will explain the elaborate doctrine of the JWs concerning the tree that was cut down and the bands that was put on the stump where the Gentile kingdoms of this world would rule for 1,260 years which the JWs claim ended in the year 1914, and Messiah came in secret and invisible and the Kingdom of Yah was set up ? Well, the fact is, that Gentile kingdoms are still ruling this world with their own governments, and the final decree that the Kingdom of Yah will be implimented at Messiah's literal coming at the LAST TRUMPET( Matt.24:31; 1 Thess.4:16; 1 Cor.15:52; Rev.11:15).
In which the true Gospel of Yah's coming Kingdom was and is still to be preached( Matt.24:14), which includes the message of their true Names( Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21; Acts 4:10-12; Rom.10:13), concerning salvation of man, and that the Promises were and are immortal Eternal life on this earth as was Promised to Abraham and all the faithful obedient( Heb.11), in which even they have not received those promises yet either( Heb.11:13, 39). “””
I know that the Jws teach that the Kingdom come in 1914,however, where did you reply to that above in ” the gospel topic “?
I'm not backing Nick up as he assumes that tongues is the evidence of receiving the set apart spirit.
Tongues or languages is not the evidence as many assume in their own minds, rather, it would be the fruits of the spirit( Gal.5:22), not tongues.
ONESPIRIT said this perfectly
Quote Of course, there are other aspects to the Spirit, but the most important part of “having the Spirit” is having the Truth from the Mind of YHWH. When one has the true spirit that one actually does have the Mind of Yah to comprehend the truth of scriptures, as Messiah said this too.
However, Nick will probably argue against this too.
Nick said,
Quote There are no scriptures that say the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. There is no scripture that says tongues or languages IS THE EVIDENCE of receiving the spirit and that is for certain.
What gives evidence that a person really has the holy spirit?
Luke 4:18, 31-35: “[Jesus read from the scroll of the prophet Isaiah:] ‘Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news’ . . . And he went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee. And he was teaching them on the sabbath; and they were astounded at his way of teaching, because his speech was with authority. Now in the synagogue there was a man with a spirit, an unclean demon, and he shouted with a loud voice . . . But Jesus rebuked it, saying: ‘Be silent, and come out of him.’ So, after throwing the man down in their midst, the demon came out of him without hurting him.”
(What gave evidence that Jesus had God’s spirit? The account does not say that he trembled or shouted or moved about in a fervor. Rather, it says he spoke with authority. It is noteworthy, however, that on that occasion a demonic spirit did move a man to shout and fall onto the floor.)Acts 1:8 says that when Jesus’ followers received holy spirit they would be witnesses about him. According to Acts 2:1-11, when they did receive that spirit, observers were impressed by the fact that, although the ones speaking were all Galileans, they were speaking about the magnificent things of God in languages that were familiar to the many foreigners who were present. But the record does not say that there were any emotional outbursts on the part of those who received the spirit.
It is noteworthy that when Elizabeth received the holy spirit and then gave voice to “a loud cry” she was not in a meeting for worship but was greeting a visiting relative. (Luke 1:41, 42) When, as reported at Acts 4:31, holy spirit came upon an assembly of disciples, the place was shaken, but the effect of that spirit on the disciples was, not that they trembled or rolled about, but that they ‘spoke the word of God with boldness.’ Likewise today, boldness in speaking the word of God, zealously engaging in the work of witnessing—these are what give evidence that a person has holy spirit.Gal. 5:22, 23: “The fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control.” (It is this fruitage, rather than outbursts of religious fervor, that one should look for when seeking to find people who truly have God’s spirit.)
Thinking of that love, kindness, self-control, etc, Eliyah, notice this verse:
JAMES 1:26
“If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man’s form of worship is futile.”The name calling and what appears to be angry thoughts has always bothered me.
Maybe I've been reading your posts wrong. I don't know.
dave
If we're told that a + b = c,
and told what a and b is, do we have to directly be told what c is?We are told why those special gifts were given.
We know that they fulfilled their purpose.
We are told they would cease.david.
ps.
I'm not great at math. If I'm wrong, let me know.David,
I don't know what your implying, but I've said this before, I've been guilty of outbursts and so have others that should think about themselves as well as I said in the topic of ” To T8 The Administrator “, which as I said to “” IS 1:18 “”.
David, I can also cite verses too against twisting others words and falsely accusing someone personally( however I have not done so yet) as I have been done on this forum on many occasions, and I have not read any remorse or regret from those certain accusers either.
It seems those who constantly accuse me are the one's who's views of doctrines are challenged with the scriptures against them that I point out too.
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