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For hundreds of years, Christians killed and persecuted Jews. Hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews have died at the hands of Christians. Knowing this, how can one say the Christian tree is a good tree if for so many years it brought forth such bad fruit?
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,00:22) For hundreds of years, Christians killed and persecuted Jews. Hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews have died at the hands of Christians. Knowing this, how can one say the Christian tree is a good tree if for so many years it brought forth such bad fruit?
TowAnd the Hebrew Jews also conquered lands and killed many innocent woman and children.
So is their fruit any better? What about the Jews and Palistinians today, killing each other!
True Christians dont believe in such. There is much done in the name of Christianity which is not Christian at all.
Can you show me in the NT where such a message is taught?
Loving your neighbor as yourself is taught.
Your argument is fallacious!
Hi Tow,
Do you really believe all who call themselves christian are sons of God?
The road is narrow and few will choose it.
You must be born again.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,05:01) Hi Tow,
Do you really believe all who call themselves christian are sons of God?
The road is narrow and few will choose it.
You must be born again.
Yeah Tow, get with it. Although in the case of Jesus the birth canal was one-way, as you are a mere human you need to cause it to be used a third time. How else will you get your second childhood to become trapped in?Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,11:17) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,00:22) For hundreds of years, Christians killed and persecuted Jews. Hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews have died at the hands of Christians. Knowing this, how can one say the Christian tree is a good tree if for so many years it brought forth such bad fruit?
TowAnd the Hebrew Jews also conquered lands and killed many innocent woman and children.
So is their fruit any better? What about the Jews and Palistinians today, killing each other!
The Jews kill Palestinians for survival. Should they lie down in the street and allow the Palestinians to just kill them and take their land?
Also, do you not believe that Jesus and YHVH are part of your trinity? By extension then you must admit that the Tanakh speaks of G-d commanding the Jews to kill those people. I personally do not believe such of G-d but see it as the willingness of man to attribute their desire to kill and conquer to G-d.
Just as Christians for hundreds of years killed Jews. Those Christians believed they were doing so because it is what G-d wanted them to do.
Quote True Christians dont believe in such. There is much done in the name of Christianity which is not Christian at all. The standard Christian apologetic response. Yet you fail to see that Christians have killed more Jews in history in the name of their god than any other.
And there is a difference! While Jews did kill others according to Tanakh, they killed those who had pagan gods. Yet with Christianity, we have the greatest example of people killing people who supposedly worship the SAME G-d!
How can this be, WJ? Do you think G-d commanded those people to kill the Jews? Then why did they claim as much?
Why did Calvin and Martin Luther develop such a hatred for the Jews? I’ll tell you why. When Christians fail to convert someone, they then proceed to damn them to hellfire. In modern days, the damnation is verbal. In times past, they literally burned them, bringing the hellfire early so to speak. If they couldn’t kill them they persecuted them. If they couldn’t do that, they just said false things about them, which is exactly what Martin Luther and Calvin did.
You really have your head in the sand if you think that Christianity has not been the greatest single cause of anti-Semitism in the Common Era.
Quote Can you show me in the NT where such a message is taught? Loving your neighbor as yourself is taught.
Your argument is fallacious!
===================================
Joh 8:44 You [the Jews] are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
Joh 8:46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you [the Jews] do not hear them is that you are not of God.”Act 7:51 “You stiff-necked people [the Jews], uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,
Act 7:53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,
1Th 2:15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
1Th 2:16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved–so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God's wrath has come upon them at last!Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie–behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you.
===================================The book of Acts is full of supposed instances where Jews killed and persecuted Christians but such actions are not found anywhere outside of the GT. Its amazing how much is found in the GT that is not supported outside of its pages that ends up becoming ‘truth’ for Christians.
For instance, the GT has Jews indiscriminately picking up stones to either try to kill someone or actually doing it. However, things like this did not happen. People who were to be put to death under Jewish law had to be brought before the Sanhedrin. Also, even in the GT the truth that Jews were not allowed to carry out the death penalty while under Roman rule proves that the Jews just didn’t kill Christians left and right.
Such actions find no support in history outside of the GT and perhaps a few church fathers who obviously had an agenda to continue the influence of the GT writings. No historian recorded the persecution of Christians by Jews while there seemed to be plenty historians who recorded persecution of Jews by Christians.
So while you think Jesus preached a message of love, there was also a message of hatred towards Jews that permeated the GT.
Nick,
If they are killing for land and it is due to some lack of faith, why did the Christians kill the Jews?
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,00:22) For hundreds of years, Christians killed and persecuted Jews. Hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews have died at the hands of Christians. Knowing this, how can one say the Christian tree is a good tree if for so many years it brought forth such bad fruit?
Those who killed Jews were murderers.Jesus and his disciples do not consider such as followers.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”So they were impostors.
Christianity was hijacked by the Beast and some people cannot see the difference. There is a war out there and deception is certainly used by the enemy.
Don't be fooled. Murderers do not have eternal life.
Case closed.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,11:29) Nick, If they are killing for land and it is due to some lack of faith, why did the Christians kill the Jews?
Hi Tow,
What christians?
You mean the crusades?
They were not christians.You guys make many excuses for those who called themselves Christians but yet you won\\\'t own up to where they received their influence: the Christian Greek text (GT). It is very anti-judaic (not necessarily anti-semitic per se), especially the gospel of John. Paul wasn\\\'t much better.
So no matter how many excuses you make, Christians must face facts that the GT is anti-judaic. Without the books of the GT accusing the Jews of supposed deicide, people after that would have less to look down on the Jews for.
And after all of this, you still have to wonder what Isaiah 53 is about?!?!? The Jews have suffered as a people many times more than Jesus ever suffered as an individual.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,11:20) [/quote] Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,11:17) Towshab,Dec. wrote:For hundreds of years, Christians killed and persecuted Jews. Hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews have died at the hands of Christians. Knowing this, how can one say the Christian tree is a good tree if for so many years it brought forth such bad fruit?
TowAnd the Hebrew Jews also conquered lands and killed many innocent woman and children.
So is their fruit any better? What about the Jews and Palistinians today, killing each other!
Quote
The Jews kill Palestinians for survival. Should they lie down in the street and allow the Palestinians to just kill them and take their land?Whose land was it from the beginning? I am not blaming the Jews for defending themselves. My point is the Jews killed many innocent woman and children all in the name of YHWH.
So accusing so called Christians for not having fruit is a straw, especially since the teachings of the GT is to Love and turn the other cheek.
You cant find any teachings of Yeshua or the Apostles that call Christians to kill anyone. So those that did were not Christians or followers of Christ.
Quote Also, do you not believe that Jesus and YHVH are part of your trinity? By extension then you must admit that the Tanakh speaks of G-d commanding the Jews to kill those people. I personally do not believe such of G-d but see it as the willingness of man to attribute their desire to kill and conquer to G-d. Well if you dont believe it was a mandate of YHWH then you dont believe in much of the Torah or the Tanakh.
God is not only Love, but he is also a God of judgment.
Much of the Torah and the Tanakh is YHWH punishing wicked men or nations or using those wicked nations to punish his own people. What do you think of that?
Quote Just as Christians for hundreds of years killed Jews. Those Christians believed they were doing so because it is what G-d wanted them to do. Again, they were not following the GT, for there is no such teaching to be found there. so they were not Christians at all.
Many Christians have died for their faith also.
Quote True Christians dont believe in such. There is much done in the name of Christianity which is not Christian at all. Quote The standard Christian apologetic response. Yet you fail to see that Christians have killed more Jews in history in the name of their god than any other. Yes of course it is a standard response and a good one. For their is no such teaching in the GT for killing Jews.
So again they were not followers of Christ, nor were they Christians.
Quote And there is a difference! While Jews did kill others according to Tanakh, they killed those who had pagan gods. Yet with Christianity, we have the greatest example of people killing people who supposedly worship the SAME G-d! Talk about apologetics!!! You are talking out of two sides of your mouth. Its Okay for Jews to kill people because they didnt worship YHWH but some other god?
Whats the difference?
Quote How can this be, WJ? Do you think G-d commanded those people to kill the Jews? Then why did they claim as much? No I dont think God told them to. But you sound desperate to make it so!
Quote Why did Calvin and Martin Luther develop such a hatred for the Jews? I’ll tell you why. When Christians fail to convert someone, they then proceed to damn them to hellfire. In modern days, the damnation is verbal. In times past, they literally burned them, bringing the hellfire early so to speak. If they couldn’t kill them they persecuted them. If they couldn’t do that, they just said false things about them, which is exactly what Martin Luther and Calvin did. Do you have any evidence that Calvin and Martin Luther killed anyone? Its one thing to make claims against someone because they believe they are in error, but its another thing to kill them.
So again, the killing was not by true Christians following Yeshuas teachings or the teaching of the GT.
Quote You really have your head in the sand if you think that Christianity has not been the greatest single cause of anti-Semitism in the Common Era. No. I think that you have your head in the sand to believe that true Christianity is anti-semetic.
Do you really think Hitler was a Christian?
Quote Can you show me in the NT where such a message is taught? Loving your neighbor as yourself is taught.
Your argument is fallacious!
Quote ===================================
Joh 8:44 You [the Jews] are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
Joh 8:46 Which one of you convicts me of
sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you [the Jews] do not hear them is that you are not of God.”Act 7:51 “You stiff-necked people [the Jews], uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,
Act 7:53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,
1Th 2:15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
1Th 2:16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved–so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God's wrath has come upon them at last!Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie–behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you.
===================================The book of Acts is full of supposed instances where Jews killed and persecuted Christians but such actions are not found anywhere outside of the GT. Its amazing how much is found in the GT that is not supported outside of its pages that ends up becoming ‘truth’ for Christians.
For instance, the GT has Jews indiscriminately picking up stones to either try to kill someone or actually doing it. However, things like this did not happen. People who were to be put to death under Jewish law had to be brought before the Sanhedrin. Also, even in the GT the truth that Jews were not allowed to carry out the death penalty while under Roman rule proves that the Jews just didn’t kill Christians left and right.
Such actions find no support in history outside of the GT and perhaps a few church fathers who obviously had an agenda to continue the influence of the GT writings. No historian recorded the persecution of Christians by Jews while there seemed to be plenty historians who recorded persecution of Jews by Christians.
So while you think Jesus preached a message of love, there was also a message of hatred towards Jews that permeated the GT.
No. The message was not hate and you have no scriptural evidence of that. The message was a warning against the hypocrites, Pharasees and Sadusees.
You also forget that all of the Followers of Christ were Jews and the writers of the GT also were Jews.
It seems that you have as much hate for “Christians” as you claim Christians have for Jews.
To that I say you are wrong.
Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews loved Israel, the Jews..
Rom 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
What does it take to be called a Christian? It takes a person to say I am a Christain, and that is all it takes.
The word Christian is a Greek word and has nothing to do with our Creator. Christains are any person, who believes anything they want to believe. They call it faith. I call it “greasy grace.” Christains, and Orthodox Jews or anybody who claims that they worship the “One true God” are under His MERCY! They are not under His grace!
To be considered righteous and “above the law” in YHWH's eyes, A person MUST believe Y'shua is the Messiah and the Son of Elohim, AND keep His commands! TORAH people our teacher. They are a unit in Spirit. They are not a trinity! UNITY people!
Jer 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
Jer 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.One Way, not multiple ways. Only One. His way not Calvins, not Luthers, not the pope's.
Y'shua makes the Torah complete. He teaches Torah. He upheld Torah. He lived for the Torah and died for the Torah. Why? Because YHWH gave it to Him to do, and His works were rightous in His Father's eyes. Y'shua upheld Torah, to show us that YHWH's Word is REAL and EVERLASTING, so that we could follw His example and live also together with them as one unit.
Get a grip all you hypocrits. Your eyes need slave! Your hearts are wounded. Call on YHWH in His Name, (His Name's sake), Y'shua Messiah the Salvation of YHWH, the Annointed of YHWH.
I came in My Father's Name and you did not receive me. If another comes in His own name him you will receive.
Jesus is a Mexican name. Y'shua is the real Messiah. A Jew and the flesh of Elohim. His flesh was cut off, for the iniquity of the world.
Do not trample the blood of the Messiah under froot by counting His blood as nothing! If you know the truth do not sell it. There is no sacrifice for sin if you sin on purpose after you have received the Spirit of Truth!!!!
They shall know that My Name is YHWH!!!!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,23:20) Hi Tow,
We love the Jews.
They have the promises.
But you are not one of those.
If you loved the Jews you'd leave them alone and allow them to serve G-d in the way they have been taught.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,01:21) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,11:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,11:17) Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,00:22) For hundreds of years, Christians killed and persecuted Jews. Hundreds or thousands, perhaps millions, of Jews have died at the hands of Christians. Knowing this, how can one say the Christian tree is a good tree if for so many years it brought forth such bad fruit?
TowAnd the Hebrew Jews also conquered lands and killed many innocent woman and children.
So is their fruit any better? What about the Jews and Palistinians today, killing each other!
Quote
The Jews kill Palestinians for survival. Should they lie down in the street and allow the Palestinians to just kill them and take their land?Whose land was it from the beginning? I am not blaming the Jews for defending themselves. My point is the Jews killed many innocent woman and children all in the name of YHWH.
Yes they did, and I for one do not believe that the Creator G-d is so weak and petty as to use humans to do his 'dirty work'. This is just an instance of man wanting to say he was guided to do violence by the will of G-d. So sad really.
Quote So accusing so called Christians for not having fruit is a straw, especially since the teachings of the GT is to Love and turn the other cheek. Can you show me where such love was expressed historically? There are a few examples, but those typically accompany a desire to convert the ones who are extended kindness. Thus the motive is not pure.
Also, where do you think this 'so-called Christians' got their anti-judaic ideas from? The same GT that teaches love. There are conflicting themes in your GT.
Quote You cant find any teachings of Yeshua or the Apostles that call Christians to kill anyone. So those that did were not Christians or followers of Christ. Yet we find many teachings that accuse the Jews of being guilty of deicide, children of 'satan', and cursed. That is all those who followed and called themselves Christians needed to persecute the 'cursed' Jews.
Quote Quote Also, do you not believe that Jesus and YHVH are part of your trinity? By extension then you must admit that the Tanakh speaks of G-d commanding the Jews to kill those people. I personally do not believe such of G-d but see it as the willingness of man to attribute their desire to kill and conquer to G-d. Well if you dont believe it was a mandate of YHWH then you dont believe in much of the Torah or the Tanakh.
God is not only Love, but he is also a God of judgment.
Then why would He need puny man to carry this out? He does not. If He creates, He can take away. He does not need man to do His 'dirty work'.
Quote Much of the Torah and the Tanakh is YHWH punishing wicked men or nations or using those wicked nations to punish his own people. What do you think of that? I think that people wanted to defend their evil actions by claiming G-d commanded them to do so. Just as those who said they were Christians persecuted and killed Jews. Whether you say they were Christians or not is irrelavent. They said they were and they have just as much right to claim it as you have.
Quote Quote Just as Christians for hundreds of years killed Jews. Those Christians believed they were doing so because it is what G-d wanted them to do. Again, they were not following the GT, for there is no such teaching to be found there. so they were not Christians at all.
And again, you do not have a right to categorize them as they might say the same of you if they knew you. The fact is, Christianity is full of finger-pointers and dissension because of the conflicting messages found in the GT. Protestants call Pencostals lost, the RCC says they are the true church, Mormons and JWs think they have the real truth, and each one of you makes qualifications on who is or isn't a Christian. The only time you are all Christians is when you want to put up the big numbers. But inside you are fighting each other and arguing over who is going to hell or heaven.
Quote Many Christians have died for their faith also. Many Muslems have died for their faith. So this claim means nothing.
Quote Quote True Christians dont believe in such. There is much done in the name of Christianity which is not Christian at all. Quote The standard Christian apologetic response. Yet you fail to see that Christians have killed more Jews in history in the name of their god than any other. Yes of course it is a standard response and a good one. For their is no such teaching in the GT for killing Jews.
So
again they were not followers of Christ, nor were they Christians.They said they were. They had the same GT you had. Since you are not the judge of men, then Christianity is still the force behind most of the anti-judaic actions for the past 1900+ years.
Quote Quote And there is a difference! While Jews did kill others according to Tanakh, they killed those who had pagan gods. Yet with Christianity, we have the greatest example of people killing people who supposedly worship the SAME G-d! Talk about apologetics!!! You are talking out of two sides of your mouth. Its Okay for Jews to kill people because they didnt worship YHWH but some other god?
Whats the difference?
I never said it was OK, I just pointed out that the ones the Jews killed served pagan gods. Christians persecuted Jews and they say they worship the same G-d that Jews do. Yet this cannot be substantiated because YHVH is not found in the GT, while Jesus and 'god the father' are no where to be found in Tanakh. Its really as simple as that.
Quote Quote How can this be, WJ? Do you think G-d commanded those people to kill the Jews? Then why did they claim as much? No I dont think God told them to. But you sound desperate to make it so!
No, I'm just merely pointing out that these people called themselves Christians. Whether you think they were or not is irrelavant. They said they were and history records this as fact. Live with it.
Quote Quote Why did Calvin and Martin Luther develop such a hatred for the Jews? I’ll tell you why. When Christians fail to convert someone, they then proceed to damn them to hellfire. In modern days, the damnation is verbal. In times past, they literally burned them, bringing the hellfire early so to speak. If they couldn’t kill them they persecuted them. If they couldn’t do that, they just said false things about them, which is exactly what Martin Luther and Calvin did. Do you have any evidence that Calvin and Martin Luther killed anyone? Its one thing to make claims against someone because they believe they are in error, but its another thing to kill them.
I do not accuse Martin Luther or Calvin of killing, just of hating Jews and spreading viscious lies about them because they failed to convert them to Christianity. Both of these men are seen as pillars of Christianity and they despised Jews. Again, can a good tree bring forth such bad fruit?
Quote So again, the killing was not by true Christians following Yeshuas teachings or the teaching of the GT. Quote You really have your head in the sand if you think that Christianity has not been the greatest single cause of anti-Semitism in the Common Era. No. I think that you have your head in the sand to believe that true Christianity is anti-semetic.
Do you really think Hitler was a Christian?
After doing a bit of study, I am revising the accusation of anti-semitic to anti-judaic. That is, Christianity does not hate Jews for their heritage, they hate Judaism. That is quite obvious from the GT, and Paul was the number one leader in that area.
As far as Hitler, I have not mentioned him at all. You are bringing him up. But since you did, here ar a few quotes for you:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler
==================================
Hitler was raised by Roman Catholic parents, but as a boy he rejected some aspects of Catholicism. After Hitler left home, he never attended Mass or received the sacraments.
Throughout his life, Hitler often praised Christian heritage, German Christian culture, and a belief in Christ. In his speeches and publications Hitler even spoke of Christianity as a central motivation for his antisemitism, stating that “As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice”. His private statements, as reported by his intimates, are more mixed, showing Hitler as a religious man but critical of traditional Christianity. Rather, Hitler advocated a “Positive Christianity”, a belief system purged from what he objected to in traditional Christianity, and which reinvented Jesus as a fighter against the Jews.Among Christian denominations, Hitler favoured Protestantism, which was more open to such reinterpretations. At the same time, he adopted some elements of the Catholic Church's hierarchical organization, liturgy and phraseology in his politics.
Hitler may have been influenced by the writings of the ideologist and anti-Semite Lanz von Liebenfels and polemics from politicians such as Karl Lueger, founder of the Christian Social Party and mayor of Vienna, the composer Richard Wagner, and Georg Ritter von Schönerer, leader of the pan-Germanic Away from Rome! movement.
In Mein Kampf, Hitler refers to Martin Luther as a great warrior, a true statesmen, and a great reformer, alongside Wagner and Frederick the Great. Wilhelm Röpke, writing after the Holocaust, concluded that “without any question, Lutheranism influenced the political, spiritual and social history of Germany in a way that, after careful consideration of everything, can be described only as fateful.“
==================================Others:
==================================
Nazi anti-Judaism was the work of godless, anti- Christian criminals. But it would not have been possible without the almost two thousand years’ prehistory of ‘Christian’ anti-Judaism. . . . —Hans KüngiiIt is a painful but inescapable truth that anti- Semitism, which seethes with hate, was spawned and nourished by Christianity, which reveres a Jewish prophet who preached love and compassion. . . .Two thousand years of Christian anti-Judaism . . . hardened hearts against Jews. . . .This mind-set, deeply embedded in the Christian outlook, helps to explain why so many people were receptive to anti- Jewish propaganda. —Marvin Perryiii
==================================Quote Quote Can you show me in the NT where such a message is taught? Loving your neighbor as yourself is taught.
Your argument is fallacious!
Quote ===================================
Joh 8:44 You [the Jews] are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.
Joh 8:46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you [the Jews] do not hear them is that you are not of God.”Act 7:51 “You stiff-necked people [the Jews], uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,
Act 7:53 you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.”1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,
1Th 2:15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
1Th 2:16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved–so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God's wrath has come upon them at last!Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie–behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you.
===================================The book of Acts is full of supposed instances where Jews killed and persecuted Christians but such actions are not found anywhere outside of the GT. Its amazing how much is found in the GT that is not supported outside of its pages that ends up becoming ‘truth’ for Christians.
For instance, the GT has Jews indiscriminately picking up stones to either try to kill someone or actually doing it. However, things like this did not happen. People who were to be put to death under Jewish law had to be brought before the Sanhedrin. Also, even in the GT the truth that Jews were not allowed to carry out the death penalty while under Roman rule proves that the Jews just didn’t kill Christians left and right.
Such actions find no support in history outside of the GT and perhaps a few church fathers who obviously had an agenda to continue the influence of the GT writings. No historian recorded the persecution of Christians by Jews while there seemed to be plenty historians who recorded persecution of Jews by Christians.
So while you think Jesus preached a message of love, there was also a message of hatred towards Jews that permeated the GT.
No. The message was not hate and you have no scriptural evidence of that. The message was a warning against the hypocrites, Pharasees and Sadusees.
Sorry, but if you read the passages, it says 'Jews' with no such qualifications. Therefore, Christians from that point on had all the 'proof' they needed to condemn and persecute ALL Jews because that is what many passages in the GT said: 'the Jews'.
That particular phrase is found 62 times in the gospel of John alone, with the bulk of these having 'the Jews' being cast in a negative light.
Quote You also forget that all of the Followers of Christ were Jews and the writers of the GT also were Jews. No longer. One by one they cast off their Judaism to become Christians. So while you say they were, they made the conscious decision to abandon their faith and follow a man instead of YHVH.
Quote It seems that you have as much hate for “Christians” as you claim Christians have for Jews. To that I say you are wrong.
Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews loved Israel, the Jews..
Rom 10:1
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
The difference is that Paul taught that such salvation was in Jesus when Tanakh says differently. Tanakh does not teach that people should put their trust in a man but G-d alone. I know you think that Jesus IS G-d, but even within your own religion there is no solid agreement on that.Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 20 2007,00:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,23:20) Hi Tow,
We love the Jews.
They have the promises.
But you are not one of those.
If you loved the Jews you'd leave them alone and allow them to serve G-d in the way they have been taught.
Hi Tow,
Who is pushing you around?
Not us who respect your freedom of choice
Perhaps you too feel the influence of the Spirit of God here?Nah, I just desire for Christians to stop saying they worship YHVH when the Tanakh obviously conflicts strongly with the GT. YHVH is not triune, Jesus is a man and not to be worshiped, and drinking blood and sacrificing humans is contradictory to Tanakh.
Hi Tow,m
Indeed false religion posing as following Christ is far more prevalent.
But you should ignore their dangerous follies.
Out God is not triune.
Jesus is a man.Jesus is the prophet and an eternal priest and a servant to our God and we should worship the only true God as He did.
His life sacrifice for sin is complete and those empowered by the Spirit of Christ meet in his name to commemorate what he did for them.
There is no forgiveness without blood and that blood is shed and the work already done and it cannot be repeated.No man can live by bread alone, and as he did we should hungrily devour and obey the Words of life becoming one with Him and His God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2007,11:56) Hi Tow,m
Indeed false religion posing as following Christ is far more prevalent.
But you should ignore their dangerous follies.
Out God is not triune.
Jesus is a man.Jesus is the prophet and an eternal priest and a servant to our God and we should worship the only true God as He did.
His life sacrifice for sin is complete and those empowered by the Spirit of Christ meet in his name to commemorate what he did for them.A man can not sacrifice himself for the sins of others. No such provision is made in Torah. All are responsible for their own iniquities. Yours is a doctine of escapism where people are not held responsible for their sins because of the supposed covering of the blood of Jesus.
Quote There is no forgiveness without blood and that blood is shed and the work already done and it cannot be repeated. There's where you are wrong. Even a liberal Christian translation reveals your error:
Hos 14:2 (CEV) Return to the LORD and say, “Please forgive our sins. Accept our good sacrifices of praise instead of bulls”
See what Hosea, a true prophet of G-d says, by word of YHVH? That repentant prayer is sufficient for forgiveness! Solomon said much of the same
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1Ki 8:46 “If they sin against you–for there is no one who does not sin–and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near,
1Ki 8:47 yet if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors, saying, 'We have sinned and have acted perversely and wickedly,'
1Ki 8:48 if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray to you toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city that you have chosen, and the house that I have built for your name,
1Ki 8:49 then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause
1Ki 8:50 and forgive your people who have sinned against you, and all their transgressions that they have committed against you, and grant them compassion in the sight of those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them
=====================================Quote No man can live by bread alone, and as he did we should hungrily devour and obey the Words of life becoming one with Him and His God.
Nice words, too bad such is not supported in Tanakh.
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