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Ed, one more point to consider – If Christ is deity prior to his coming to Earth, it begs the question, Can the Judeo Christian God stop being God and become a man? Does that fit in the character and attributes of the immortal immutable God of the bible?
Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,09:59) Ed, There are two possibilities for a preexistence. Either Christ came to Earth with memories and capabilities not available to us which would deny our use as a perfect example and bring into question everything that he did – Did he do that as God or man-
OR
Christ came to Earth with no knowledge memory or power not availability to us, in which case we can use him as our example. this one does leave some rather big mysteries out there. Such as what happened to his memories and experiences from that prior life? Does he get those back after his death?
Personally I prefer the one with the least mysteries involved. However if you want to believe that Christ gave up his memories and power to come to Earth have at it. My point is that whatever happened, the Child called Jesus born to Mary had to be like us to be our example.
Hi Martin,What about the third possibility, that we all preexisted?
You seem to be leaving this possibility off the table.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd – no disrespect but I think that you are wanting to delve down a lot of rabbit holes. It serves me no purpose to speculate on a full preexistence for everyone. That does nothing to promote my becoming like Christ in the hear and now. My Goal is to follow the plan of God including foremost becoming like christ. My forty years of research has been to find teaching that does that very thing. I have no time for speculation, if it takes me away from my primary goal of becoming like Christ. That type of speculation is best left for the philosophers on Mars Hill.
Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,16:38) I never said God was our example. I said Christ was and is our example.
Didn't that scripture show that God was Jesus' example? If he only does what he sees the Father doing, then the Father is Jesus' example, right?Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,17:03) If Christ is deity prior to his coming to Earth, it begs the question, Can the Judeo Christian God stop being God and become a man? Does that fit in the character and attributes of the immortal immutable God of the bible?
Why only the two options, Martian? Why do you claim that Jesus either had to be nothing but man, or God Himself?Scripture teaches a third option – one that has apparently alluded you.
Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,10:47) Ed – no disrespect but I think that you are wanting to delve down a lot of rabbit holes. It serves me no purpose to speculate on a full preexistence for everyone. That does nothing to promote my becoming like Christ in the hear and now. My Goal is to follow the plan of God including foremost becoming like christ. My forty years of research has been to find teaching that does that very thing. I have no time for speculation, if it takes me away from my primary goal of becoming like Christ. That type of speculation is best left for the philosophers on Mars Hill.
Hi Martian,Then you agree that is it not important whether one believes in preexistence or not, right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,18:01) Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,10:47) Ed – no disrespect but I think that you are wanting to delve down a lot of rabbit holes. It serves me no purpose to speculate on a full preexistence for everyone. That does nothing to promote my becoming like Christ in the hear and now. My Goal is to follow the plan of God including foremost becoming like christ. My forty years of research has been to find teaching that does that very thing. I have no time for speculation, if it takes me away from my primary goal of becoming like Christ. That type of speculation is best left for the philosophers on Mars Hill.
Hi Martian,Then you agree that is it not important whether one believes in preexistence or not, right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjso you would say then that all truth are not required and we have to be selective ,between the truths that scriptures teach right
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2012,10:51) Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,17:03) If Christ is deity prior to his coming to Earth, it begs the question, Can the Judeo Christian God stop being God and become a man? Does that fit in the character and attributes of the immortal immutable God of the bible?
Why only the two options, Martian? Why do you claim that Jesus either had to be nothing but man, or God Himself?Scripture teaches a third option – one that has apparently alluded you.
No I am not ignoring it. I am dealing with real posibiulities and not Sci Fi philosophies.Quote (terraricca @ April 21 2012,11:38) Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,18:01) Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,10:47) Ed – no disrespect but I think that you are wanting to delve down a lot of rabbit holes. It serves me no purpose to speculate on a full preexistence for everyone. That does nothing to promote my becoming like Christ in the hear and now. My Goal is to follow the plan of God including foremost becoming like christ. My forty years of research has been to find teaching that does that very thing. I have no time for speculation, if it takes me away from my primary goal of becoming like Christ. That type of speculation is best left for the philosophers on Mars Hill.
Hi Martian,Then you agree that is it not important whether one believes in preexistence or not, right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjso you would say then that all truth are not required and we have to be selective ,between the truths that scriptures teach right
SpinQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2012,10:49) Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,16:38) I never said God was our example. I said Christ was and is our example.
Didn't that scripture show that God was Jesus' example? If he only does what he sees the Father doing, then the Father is Jesus' example, right?
Sure an example to do things but not an example to be like. BIG DIFFERENCE – Jesus constantly said the Father was greater then he and that he could do nothing outside of God's power. He also said that the father was his God and that the father was greater then he. This does not teach becoming like the Father.
No human can actually be like God. That is why an example of humanity with God dwelling in him was necessary for us to be like. Jesus is the temple for God to dwell in. We are also to be temples for God to dwell in. He is our example of that process and completion.Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,11:01) Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,10:47) Ed – no disrespect but I think that you are wanting to delve down a lot of rabbit holes. It serves me no purpose to speculate on a full preexistence for everyone. That does nothing to promote my becoming like Christ in the hear and now. My Goal is to follow the plan of God including foremost becoming like christ. My forty years of research has been to find teaching that does that very thing. I have no time for speculation, if it takes me away from my primary goal of becoming like Christ. That type of speculation is best left for the philosophers on Mars Hill.
Hi Martian,Then you agree that is it not important whether one believes in preexistence or not, right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
If you want all kinds of unanswered questions and mysteries included in your beliefs then it makes no difference if Christ preexisted as long as he was totally human from conception forward. (with no extra memories, knowledge or capabilities not available to us)
Of course leaving all those loop holes and unanswered question leaves room for the devil or our own speculation to start explaining them outside of scripture truth. All of a sudden a person might find himself with a speculation that God stopped being God and became a man to live on Earth. Or that God somehow merged with humanity yet remained an unchanged God and the human remained 100% human. See how the mind can play tricks on you with all kinds of wild ideas?Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,12:46) Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,11:01)
Hi Martian,Then you agree that is it not important whether one believes in preexistence or not, right?
God bless
Ed J
If you want all kinds of unanswered questions and mysteries (1)included in your beliefs then it makes no difference if Christ preexisted as long as he was totally human from conception forward. ((2)with no extra memories, knowledge or capabilities not available to us)
Of course leaving all those loop holes and unanswered question leaves room for the devil or our own speculation to start explaining them outside of scripture truth. (3)All of a sudden a person might find himself with a speculation that God stopped being God and became a man to live on Earth. (4)Or that God somehow merged with humanity yet remained an unchanged God and the human remained 100% human. See how the mind can play tricks on you with all kinds of wild ideas?
Hi Martian, at least you now consider a third option.1) 50% – Son of God – (Luke 1:35)
50% – Son of man – (Matt. 1:20)2) Job 38:4
3) How does God stop being God?
4) “God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them;” (2 Cor 6:16)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,19:38) This does not teach becoming like the Father.
No human can actually be like God.
Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,19:34) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2012,10:51) Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,17:03) If Christ is deity prior to his coming to Earth, it begs the question, Can the Judeo Christian God stop being God and become a man? Does that fit in the character and attributes of the immortal immutable God of the bible?
Why only the two options, Martian? Why do you claim that Jesus either had to be nothing but man, or God Himself?Scripture teaches a third option – one that has apparently alluded you.
No I am not ignoring it. I am dealing with real posibiulities and not Sci Fi philosophies.
Okay. Well, we're constantly discussing this matter in the “Pre-existent” thread. I guess there is no need for me to discuss it here as well.Take care
Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,13:11) Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,12:46) Quote (Ed J @ April 21 2012,11:01)
Hi Martian,Then you agree that is it not important whether one believes in preexistence or not, right?
God bless
Ed J
If you want all kinds of unanswered questions and mysteries (1)included in your beliefs then it makes no difference if Christ preexisted as long as he was totally human from conception forward. ((2)with no extra memories, knowledge or capabilities not available to us)
Of course leaving all those loop holes and unanswered question leaves room for the devil or our own speculation to start explaining them outside of scripture truth. (3)All of a sudden a person might find himself with a speculation that God stopped being God and became a man to live on Earth. (4)Or that God somehow merged with humanity yet remained an unchanged God and the human remained 100% human. See how the mind can play tricks on you with all kinds of wild ideas?
Hi Martian, at least you now consider a third option.1) 50% – Son of God – (Luke 1:35)
50% – Son of man – (Matt. 1:20)2) Job 38:4
3) How does God stop being God?
4) “God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them;” (2 Cor 6:16)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Son of God – (Luke 1:35)
50% – Son of man – (Matt. 1:20) So he is not made like his brethren in every way. I am not 50% of each are you?
He is non human and therefore cannot be used as an example for us.
GREAT – We can scrap the plan of God now.Hi Martin I wouldn't if I were you.
2 Corinthians 5:19-21 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray
you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us,
who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,12:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2012,10:49) Quote (shem4name @ April 20 2012,16:38) I never said God was our example. I said Christ was and is our example.
Didn't that scripture show that God was Jesus' example? If he only does what he sees the Father doing, then the Father is Jesus' example, right?
Sure an example to do things but not an example to be like. BIG DIFFERENCE – Jesus constantly said the Father was greater then he and that he could do nothing outside of God's power. He also said that the father was his God and that the father was greater then he. This does not teach becoming like the Father.
No human can actually be like God. That is why an example of humanity with God dwelling in him was necessary for us to be like. Jesus is the temple for God to dwell in. We are also to be temples for God to dwell in. He is our example of that process and completion.
Shem4name…………….Very GOOD brother you have it right IMOpeace and love to you and yours………………………………gene
Quote (shem4name @ April 21 2012,14:55) 50% – Son of man – (Matt. 1:20) So he is not made like his brethren in every way. I am not 50% of each are you?
He is non human and therefore cannot be used as an example for us.
GREAT – We can scrap the plan of God now.
Shem4name…………Brother Mike does not see that he is teaching a religion of Separation Making Jesus different then we are completely denies GODS intended Goal for all Humanity. It not only alter Jesus works as a human being, but Gods work (IN) the man Jesus. It completely distorts the full impact on us, by making Jesus a different Being then we are. But Mike at this time just can not see that for some reason, but perhaps in time he will, at least that is my hope.It good to see other who do understand Jesus was 100% human, and not a 50% this and a 50% that.
peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………………..gene
Gene,
It is only your own personal wishes that say Jesus must have been exactly like the rest of us. The fact that he was begotten directly by God and had no human father should tell you right away that he was NOT exactly like the rest of us.
In your scenario, God picked a normal human being who was going to die anyway and made a sort of deal with him. God gave him Spirit and power to perform many signs and heal many people and the guarantee of everlasting life at His right hand, just for going through one day of suffering on a stake.
Gene, would you not trade one day of pain and suffering for an eternal life at the right hand of God? Would not any of us JUMP at that opportunity?
So where was the sacrifice Jesus made? After all, ALL men die eventually. And MANY of them are killed in more torturous and brutal ways than the way Jesus was killed. So what did your Jesus really sacrifice for us?
It is evident that you don't understand Phil 2. The mind of Christ we're suppose to have has to do with the fact that Jesus NEVER had to die in the first place. He was already immortal and living in glory alongside his God. THAT was the sacrifice, Gene, that he willingly emptied himself of the cushy life position he was in to be made as a lower species and suffer ridicule, humiliation, pain and death.
Seriously though, tell me what your Jesus actually sacrificed, since all men die. To me it seems as if your Jesus didn't sacrifice anything at all, but instead hit the jackpot of all jackpots………………one bad day in exchange for life eternal at the right hand of God, ruling over everything on heaven and earth.
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