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Hi Berean,
You provided passages from 1 John 3 and John 8 that contain the word “devil”.
As provided a number of times now,
DEVIL = DIAOBOS
=SLANDERER/false accuser/liar/DECEIVER
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man….21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Berean, Jesus identifies the devil/diabolos for you and it’s something that is WITHIN MAN himself, it comes from within the heart, within the mind of each man.
Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people
Romans 3:13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
So Berean, you believe fallen angels of their own are wicked deceitful liars, but humans on their own don’t have such capabilities?
What did God say to the first human born on the earth, Cain?
Genesis 4:7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
James 1:14 and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, 15 afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.
Cain was LED AWAY and ENTICED BY HIS OWN DESIRES, where that desire gave birth to sin and God warned that it would RULE over him. There are no wicked rebel spirits out there enticing us, leading us away to sin. The TRUTH is declared all throughout scripture.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Carnally minded is to mind the flesh, to walk after the flesh.
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.
NOW COMPARE these passages with the scripture you provided,
1 John 1:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Berean, you just sweep James, Paul and Jesus’s words, God’s word, under the rug and turn to utterly foolish myths from man.
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
“the old man” and the “devil” are one and the same. Having conversation with the “old man” is to be carnally minded, which Cain was and likewise Eve and Adam. As well, wicked rulers throughout history, including the devil of Revelation 2 who cast Christians into prison and then killed them. We have many devils today joined together to form a great dragon, those of the WEF.
Is man not ignorant Berean?
Does man not have an imagination?
Does man not have his own desires to which he seeks to serve?
What do you get when you have an ignorant imagination? LIES, LIES, LIES and TOTAL DARKNESS.
Here is one example for you. There’s a tribe in Africa where the people reached a most ignorant conclusion which then resulted in them thinking that now any baby whose bottom teeth came in before the top teeth were a curse, so each baby from then on whose bottom teeth came in first they drowned to death. Superstitious people killing babies. The problem, where all superstitions arise, their ignorance combined with their imagination inventing all sorts of lies that then turn to darkness.
Rev.20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and👉 Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.……..
7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Hi Berean,
the old serpent, the slanderer/deceiver, the adversary.
the CARNAL MIND is at enmity against God, it is not subject to the law or indeed can be. What are the works of the flesh, what do people do following after the imagination of their own hearts?
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
Romans 3:13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
Who deceives others and speaks the poison of serpents practicing deceit from their own tongues?
What happens after the thousand year reign of Christ? It’s the second resurrection and they are not being resurrected being given the Spirit and immortality, quite the contrary, they are resurrected mortals still at enmity with God having a carnal mind, being of the old man, serpents with poison on their tongues, devils/slanderers and adversaries to God and His people.
Berean, what do you think of regarding the people of the World Economic Forum and Klaus Schwab? They want a one world government, they want people living in 15 minute cities where they can be happy owning nothing, hopped up on drugs and getting pleasure through virtual reality. They have been on a path to destroy the nuclear family, encourage homosexuality and transgenderism since the 60’s. They lie about the climate and all other things. They take all of that which is evil and make it look pure and good. They are VIPERS, they practice deceit, they are deceiving many naïve people today across the entire world. They are not puppets of some wicked rebel spirit beings, they themselves are following their OWN CRAFTINESS from their own carnal minds, the imagination of the thoughts of their hearts is continually evil.
Jodi
You
Berean, what do you think of regarding the people of the World Economic Forum and Klaus Schwab? They want a one world government, they want people living in 15 minute cities where they can be happy owning nothing, hopped up on drugs and getting pleasure through virtual reality. They have been on a path to destroy the nuclear family, encourage homosexuality and transgenderism since the 60’s. They lie about the climate and all other things. They take all of that which is evil and make it look pure and good. They are VIPERS, they practice…
..
Me
Satan (the great dragon OF Rev.12) is the great SPIRIT leader of the NWO which takes form with the beast (papacy) and the false prophet (apostate Protestantism/the beast which rises from the earth/USA)
👇
Rev.16: “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of👉 the mouth of the dragon👈, and out of the mouth of 👉the beast👈, and out of the mouth of 👉the false prophet.
[14] For they are the spirits of devils,👈 working miracles👈, which go forth unto the kings of the earth👈 and of the whole world👈, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.👈
…
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew language Armageddon.Rev.17
[12] And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; BUT RECEIVE POWER AS KINGS ONE HOUR WITH THE BEAST.
[13]These have ONE MIND, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall OVERCOME THEM: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are WITH HIM are called, and chosen, and faithful.Rev.19
JESUS RETURN AS KING OF KINGS
👇
] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
[18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
[21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
…..
BE CONTINUED
@ All
Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Hi Danny,
John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil (diabolos/slanderer) 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh OF HIS OWN: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of the wicked, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because HIS OWN WORKS were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
Mark 7:21 For FROM WITHIN, out of the heart of men, PROCEED EVIL THOUGHTS, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him;
Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan (satanas/adversary) into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. 4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. 5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
Mark 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan (satanas/adversary): for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
NOT the deceit of wicked rebel spirit entities, Peter is Satan for having in mind the things of men Danny.
“the devil having now put into the heart of Judas”
and
“then entered Satan into Judas”..
Jesus tells you. Paul tells you. James tells you. King David and Solomon tell you. Moses tells you.
Ephesians 2:Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by NATURE the children of wrath, even as others.
The conversation is from within, it comes from man’s own mind through man’s imagination, not the imagination of some wicked rebel spirit entity deceiving us. THE CARNAL MIND is at enmity against God.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually…21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
There are no wicked rebel spirit entities putting thoughts and ideas into our minds deceiving us into a temptation to do evil. We have our own imaginations for crying out loud. The conversation that can give birth to sin, the fulfilling of our desires in a wicked way, comes from within out of our own heart/mind.
Then it is men who follow their carnal minds who deceive others.
Romans 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
Romans 3:13 “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
Danny you gave Matthew 25:41, but do you even care to read what all Jesus says just prior in the chapter beforehand, when he is asked about his second coming and the end of the world?
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand.
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.It’s humans who have power on the earth to deceive and they are all of one mind, they are all carnally minded. The King of Egypt and the king of Babylon Nebuchadnezzar were both of the carnal mind and were called dragons. Daniel and Revelation speak of beasts they are also MEN, rulers with power who are all carnally minded sending forth their angelos/messengers to carry out their commands.
Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries (Pharmakeia/drugs) were all nations deceived.
The merchants are humans, the beast are humans. They are satanas/adversaries, these men are diabolos/slanderers deceiving all nations and they are all of one mind, the carnal mind doing the works of the flesh and fulfilling the desires of their own minds.
Jesus in Matthew chapter 24 spoke about the end times and we know that he goes to war with human rulers who have exalted themselves as gods, they are the DIABOLOS and SATANAS, just like the devil of Revelation 2, an Emperor whose angelos/messengers carried out this devil’s will to persecute and murder Christians.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil/slanderer and his messengers.
Hi Berean,
YOU: Hey Jodi
Who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden?ME: I believe scripture throughout the bible gives us the understanding that the serpent in Genesis 3 is an allegory, there was no literal serpent in the garden.
Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh)…15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature (nephesh), that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
I want to establish a few truths from the above. Adam is a living soul/creature (nepesh) also of the field, who we are told in Genesis 1 that man and woman are to have dominion overall other living creatures (nephesh). After Adam names all of the living creatures there is found no helper for him and God then makes the woman Eve. Adam and Eve are the most intelligent living creatures (nephesh) of the field ruling overall other living creatures. Eve is a suitable helper for Adam whereas all other living creatures were not.
Genesis 3: 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast (chay/ living, alive) of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
The human mind is the most crafty overall the living of the field that God had made.
Genesis 3 is an allegory, where the serpent is the symbolic representation of the human carnal mind.
Throughout the bible we in fact not only see the human carnal mind lying through deceitful intent from within it’s own crafty imagination but when it does it’s being referred to as none other than a serpent. Hmm, just think about that for a moment.
Ephesians 2:Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by NATURE the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
1 Corinthians 3: 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
2 Corinthians 2: 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death.
Proverbs 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Romans 3:13 Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Eve’s own carnal mind was crafty, full of deceit, it was a serpent, a viper with poison opening her grave.
What took her further into temptation was the lust of her flesh and of her mind as the fruit was pleasing to the eye and looked delicious and she desired to be wise and thought from her own imagination that eating of it could make her wise.
Palms 73: 22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee.
Scripture tells us exactly what tempts humans, Eve included. Scripture also tells us exactly that which brings forth death, it is the CARNAL MIND, which is ignorant and foolish like a beast and deceptive like poison of a serpent.
Eve was in conversation exactly with what Paul spoke of, “the old man” which is also called “the old serpent” who is indeed a slanderer/deceiver and an adversary diobolos/satanas.
What about the punishment given to the serpent and the enmity God brought forth?
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life
Do we really look at serpents today out of all the living that God had made and say whoa, those snakes have really got it bad? Uh, no, that’s absurd.
The human carnal mind though most certainly has it bad, it is cursed above all other living creatures that God had made upon the earth.
Psalms 44:25 For bowed to the dust hath our soul, Cleaved to the earth hath our belly.
Micah 7:17 They lick dust as a serpent, as fearful things of earth,
Hebrews 2: 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Lick the dust as a serpent! A serpent survives by licking dust, he uses his tongue and draws in particles that give him much needed info in order to survive. The carnal mind is in bondage to the fear of death where man relies on his carnal mind in order to survive.
Jesus in the wilderness was having a conversation with the “old man” “the old serpent” where it entered his heart upon his flesh being made very weak through HUNGER, but he did not give in, he said “man cannot live on bread alone but by every word that proceeds from God’s mouth”. Judas had a conversation as well with the “old man”, “the old serpent” this diabolos, this adversary entered his heart and he gave in where we know he received 30 pieces of silver. Jesus warned we cannot serve two masters, we cannot serve both God and mammon, serving mammon is serving the desires of the carnal mind, money.
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Mortality and death brought the carnal mind into bondage where mankind now had to serve the flesh in order to live. This is the enmity God placed between the serpents seed and the woman’s seed.
The woman’s seed is Christ, Jesus was able to overcome the enmity placed onto the carnal mind through God’s Spirit dwelling in him without measure. Jesus was perfected on the cross through his suffering, he did not give into any temptation of the carnal mind that has held all men into bondage from the fear of death, where the carnal mind slanders God saying you must serve the flesh in order to live when the truth is life is held in serving God. Jesus did not seek to save himself from the cross though he did have the power of the Spirit to do so, he instead conquered it, Jesus crushed the serpents head, serving God alone. Christ was bruised in that he did suffer and die but God resurrected him to eternal life, where there is now no more enmity, no mortal body of weak flesh asking the carnal mind to serve it in order to live, he has an immortal body now that has been set free to serve God with no temptation.
Paul speaks to this in Romans 7, just before he tells us that to be carnally minded is death.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul knows that in the resurrection when he receives an immortal body he will be set free from a body of sin, free from the bondage of weak mortal flesh that brings war to the human mind as to whom it should serve.
There is no literal serpent in the Garden of Eden, it’s an allegory, a symbolic representation of the carnal mind, to which God cursed when He subjected it into bondage when He made man’s flesh weak through mortality.
The idea of wicked rebel spirits roaming around deceiving man, tempting man to do wicked is a total distraction, it’s against common sense, let alone direct scripture. It’s against an obvious observable reality of the human condition which God has placed upon us. Man’s own imagination is capable of all manner of inventions of wickedness and men of power deceive and inflict evil atrocities upon the world. They are beasts who set themselves up in the heavens as if they are God and they send forth their messengers to do their deeds, but God is going to cast them all down.
Hi Jodi,
I want to make a comment about the Book of Job.
Even if Satan was right about Job, that doesn’t mean
that Satan was a good accuser.
Anyway, Job did repent and that is the main thing.
Job did not turn his back on God forever.
So after all Satan did loose and that’s the beautiful
end of the Book of Job.
The accuser of our brethren never showed up again.
Hallelujah!God bless
Rev.12 : 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, 👉which deceiveth the whole world:👈 he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
🤔
This is intriguing, you describe the angels as being under God’s control and doing HIS commands; in some cases, “creating evil.” If “evil” is from the hand of God, this would mean the “evil” we see and experience originates from God, by/through HIS angels. Am I understanding you correctly?
Is “sin” the “evil” God is speaking of in Isaiah 45 or is “sin” anything that breaks the commands of God? Which brings into question your first post quoting Eph 2:14-15 as Paul says the law is an “enmity” or a “dividing wall of hostility” to what exactly, to God!? He never states what the law is at odds with or why. It was God who created these “laws” for mankind and is Paul claiming they are no longer any good?
Back to the angels, is sin in the world due to “temptations” by angels who are tasked by God to do a specific thing or is sin our act of choosing to do what we know is wrong – freewill or are “temptations” a combination of both the angels at work and our choices? The “knowledge of good and evil” has been going on since Adam and Eve. When mankind does sin, didn’t God tell man to turn from his wickedness to receive forgiveness and why isn’t it still in effect today?
Hi Danny,
Thanks for your reply and looking at the content of Daniel more closely.
You say that doesn’t mean he was a “good accuser”, but scripture doesn’t show that he was a wicked rebel spirit entity against God either. On the contrary, he was able to be in the presence of God, he asked God for permission and he followed God’s instructions. This adversary considered what he was doing as THE HAND OF GOD HIMSELF and Job as well as his friends all attributed Job’s affliction as indeed being from the hand of God. Think about this for a moment.
Consider also the following,
Psalm 78: 43 How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan: 44 And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink. 45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them. 46 He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust. 47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost. 48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts. 49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil (ra) angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham.
The angels in the above are evil/ra/bad/bringing distress, adversity, misery they are being saw-tawn, adversaries to man. They are following God’s commands, they are God’s angels carrying out ultimately what is God’s will.
Psalm 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psalm 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
Psalm 35:6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.
When one carefully examines the book of Job, there is actually no proof whatsoever that the adversary/saw-tawn in that book was some wicked spirit entity in rebellion against God, the text actually speaks directly against that idea.
Hi DesireTruth,
Thanks for joining this thread!
Does seem like some clarification is in order.
Hebrew word “ra”
bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind – land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical) n f
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)Deuteronomy 28: 20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The Lord will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess. 22 The Lord will strike you with consumption, with fever, with inflammation, with severe burning fever, with the sword, with scorching, and with mildew; they shall pursue you until you perish. 23 And your heavens which are over your head shall be bronze, and the earth which is under you shall be iron. 24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed. 25 The Lord will cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them; and you shall become troublesome to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 Your carcasses shall be food for all the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and no one shall frighten them away. 27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed. 28 The Lord will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of heart. 29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.
Deuteronomy 8: 2 You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.
and as I just provided in my previous post to Danny,
Psalm 78: 43 How he had wrought his signs in Egypt, and his wonders in the field of Zoan: 44 And had turned their rivers into blood; and their floods, that they could not drink. 45 He sent divers sorts of flies among them, which devoured them; and frogs, which destroyed them. 46 He gave also their increase unto the caterpiller, and their labour unto the locust. 47 He destroyed their vines with hail, and their sycomore trees with frost. 48 He gave up their cattle also to the hail, and their flocks to hot thunderbolts. 49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil (ra) angels among them. 50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence; 51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham.
God brings both blessing and cursing. He brings forth punishment and it is His angels that carry out this will of His. God’s punishment is through righteous judgment, it’s of wisdom for the purpose of instruction unto mankind where it serves His ultimate plan.
Even further we read,
Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.Hebrews 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Psalm 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.
Psalm 66:10 For You have tried us, O God;
You have refined us as silver is refined.YOU: Back to the angels, is sin in the world due to “temptations” by angels who are tasked by God to do a specific thing or is sin our act of choosing to do what we know is wrong – freewill or are “temptations” a combination of both the angels at work and our choices?
ME: Looks like you have not yet read my post to Berean regarding who tempted Eve. I am curious what you will think of that. In that post I speak to how I believe that there are no angels that tempt man to sin, it is our own carnal minds, our own imaginations that bring forth sin. I do not believe in fallen angels and most certainly do not believe that they tempt us to sin, I think such and idea is complete foolishness. I also don’t believe in “freewill”, there is no such thing as a “free will”. I do believe in freedom to choose, but that is completely different from having a “free will”. Each person’s “will” is a product of their genetics and their life experiences to which a person draws from when making a decision/choice. Genetics especially, but life experiences as well, are out of people’s control, thus making a person’s will the opposite of being free. The very fact that we are mortal and can experience pain and suffering makes our wills not free, are our wills not bound to our fear of death? Gene and I have spoken about this at length against Proclaimer and others, where this subject has it’s own thread. Would be great to discuss it further there as I love the topic!
I know I didn’t cover all your questions, I will relook at all you said again tomorrow and see what I missed.
you: “Satan (the great dragon OF Rev.12) is the great SPIRIT leader of the NWO which takes form with the beast (papacy) and the false prophet (apostate Protestantism/the beast which rises from the earth/USA)”
me: is this what you have been taught or can you substantiate this with scripture?
You quote Rev 17:14 and Jesus (the lamb), in this passage, is the King of kings and the Lord of lords; when I reference my study bible the phrase “King of kings and the Lord of lords” passage references back to Deut 10:17 “For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe.” and Psa 136:3 “Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures forever” If God is “Lord of lords”, how can Jesus also be “Lord of lords”? Can the son also be king when the king is still alive?
You then move onto chapter 19 and the violence that is portrayed doesn’t align with what the messiah of the OT is to accomplish – peace. The OT also speaks of the nation of Israel being restored and I read none of that happening in the entire book of Revelation; all I read is destruction. Jesus even states in Matt 10:34 that he didn’t come to bring peace, but a sword. How then can Jesus be the messiah when the messiah spoken of in the OT is to bring peace to the world and regather the Jews to Israel? Jesus then continues in verse 35 and says “For I have come to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” Saying he is going to pit family members against one another; this is peaceful to you, this is unification to you? What Jesus quoted is from Micah 7:6 and when reading the passage in context, Micah is speaking of the condition of the people, how corrupt and deceptive they have become; to the point a man couldn’t trust his own wife. However, Micah says he will watch and wait for God while the rest of you are in self destruct mode.
It is said there are no contradiction in the bible; how then are these “misalignment’s” justified?
Hi Berean,
When it comes to the prophetic VISION that John had we know that there is no literal dragon, no literal beasts, right? So why do you insist on making the dragon and his MESSENGERS/angelos be in literal heaven? How does this even make any sense when this is prophecy and you argue that in Isaiah 14 that your Lucifer, which actually has no business in an English translation, was already cast down?
The beast, the dragon is symbolic and so is the heaven they get cast down from.
What heaven is Revelation referring to?
God’s righteous abode? The sky where the birds fly among the clouds? Outer space where the stars are? Or something else.
Luke 10:10But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11 ‘The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.’ 12 But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city. 13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades.
Isaiah 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the Lord of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up– And it shall be brought low— 13 Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up, And upon all the oaks of Bashan; 14 Upon all the high mountains, And upon all the hills that are lifted up; 15 Upon every high tower, And upon every fortified wall; 16 Upon all the ships of Tarshish, And upon all the beautiful sloops. 17 The loftiness of man shall be bowed down, And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day, 18 But the idols He shall utterly abolish.
Psalm 75:6 For exaltation comes neither from the east Nor from the west nor from the south. 7 But God is the Judge: He puts down one, And exalts another.
Ps 5:10 Pronounce them guilty, O God! Let them fall by their own counsels; Cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions, For they have rebelled against You.
Isaiah 10:33 Behold, the Lord, The Lord of hosts, Will lop off the bough with terror; Those of high stature will be hewn down, And the haughty will be humbled. 34 He will cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, And Lebanon will fall by the Mighty One.
Jer 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? No! They were not at all ashamed; Nor did they know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; At the time I punish them, They shall be cast down,” says the Lord.
Jer 50:32 The most proud shall stumble and fall, And no one will raise him up; I will kindle a fire in his cities, And it will devour all around him.”
Ps 36:12 there the workers of iniquity have fallen; They have been cast down and are not able to rise.
Psalms 89:44 You have made his glory cease, And cast his throne down to the ground.
La 2:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earth The beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.
Judges 5:19 The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money. 20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera. 21 The river of Kishon swept them away, that ancient river, the river Kishon. O my soul, thou hast trodden down strength.
These kings didn’t literally fight in heaven Berean.
Scripture tells us that the beasts represents kings and the Pharaoh of Egypt and the King of Babylon are said to be DRAGONS. An Emperor of Rome is a Devil. Peter is a Satan. They all have one thing in common, they follow their own carnal minds, they have conversations with the “old man” with it’s deceitful lusts, the imagination of their hearts is wicked by from their own inventions, they follow their own devices where poison is on their lips like a SERPENT and they send forth their messengers to carry out their plans.
The dragon isn’t literally a dragon fighting literally in heaven.
Hi All,
2 Peter 2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
4 For if God spared not the angels (messengers) that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.Verse 4 is not talking about celestial messengers it is talking about God’s messengers the prophets who sinned.
Jeremiah 23:9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness. 10 For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right. 11 For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD. 13 And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. 14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
2 Peter 2 provides us with examples ALL of wicked men and highlights on false prophets, false teachers that turn people away from God just the same as Jeremiah 23 does. We are given that God’s messengers, the prophets, sinned in His house and he cast them out and destroyed them where they are reserved for judgment day.
2 Peter isn’t throwing into the mix an example of fallen celestial messengers and their fate, it’s talking about human messengers. Peter is directly referencing Jeremiah 23, speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah as well.
Notice how the deceit of these men that tempts others, is coming from their own hearts. That they are walking after the imaginations of their own heart. All are drawn away by their own desires, following the craftiness of their own imaginations to fulfill those desires.
Notice how man is likened to other carnal beasts in 2 Peter. Let’s read it again,
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
and man is likened to another carnal animal a dog who returns to his own vomit to eat.
These men are like ignorant brute beasts, they are carnally minded, who then bring deceit from their own foolish imaginations.
Finally, what is this about, verse 11 that comes just prior to speaking of men being of carnal mind like that of natural brute beasts saying evils things from what they do not understand?
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
Celestial messengers DO NOT bring false accusations to the Lord about man. Those who say they do are speaking evil of things they do not understand.
Both 2 Peter 2 and Jeremiah 23 speak of God punishing man and we know that He does so through celestial messengers.
Psalm 91:11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
Psalm 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
Psalm 35:6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.
Zech 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
Psalm 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil (ra) angels among them.
As I have said before, scripture is clear that it is God who makes, the deaf, blind, and dumb, it is He who brings forth blessing and cursing, good and evil (ra/bad), light and darkness. He alone does all these things including bringing pestilence, famine, floods, earthquakes and even wars. But people have it in their heads that wicked rebel spirit beings do these things, these people are speaking evil of dignities, evil of God’s messengers, as ignorant brute beasts, ideas from their foolish imaginations having no understanding.
Briefly on freewill, it’s the idea/ablity to freely make decision in life – good or bad/right or wrong; otherwise we are stuck with the concept of “predestination” or is there another option? If we don’t have freewill, then surely the angels don’t either. If angels don’t have freewill, then satan and demons don’t have freewill and therefore would be unable to be this opposing force against God. Thus making the “good and evil battle” between God and satan/fallen angels taught in the church today false because angles can only do the will of God. Therefore the entire scenario in Revelation is false.
You mention in post# 945898 to Berean the book of Revelation is “symbolic.” Is the entire book symbolic or portions of it? You also state these “battles” are with/over/because of the “carnal mind.”
In post #945890 you said Genesis 3 was an allegory of the “carnal mind”; not sure where or how you came to that conclusion, because the words written don’t support that idea. Beginning in verse 14 God begins HIS judgment on all offending parties beginning with the serpent. HE then judges Eve with pain in childbirth and being “under” her husband and to Adam the ground is cursed and must be worked for survival; unlike the garden were everything was provided. Please explain the allegorical nature of these judgments on man and women; last time I “worked” the ground, it was work, I experience this “judgment” every time I plant a garden and see zero allegories. When a woman who goes through childbirth, they will attest to the pain they feel as this child passes from the womb into the world; again, nothing allegorical. If the punishments for mankind are real, that must mean the punishment for the serpent is also real since God spoke directly to the serpent and not a “carnal thought.” Reading what is written about the serpent one can only come to the conclusion the serpent in the garden isn’t the same as what it is today.
So, if the serpent is the “carnal mind of man” in Genesis, you need to explain Matt 10:16 where Jesus tells the disciples to be “wise/shrewd/skilled” as serpents; it’s the same word used in Gen 3:2. Is Jesus saying to use their “carnal mind” when they “go out” into the world? Some will say the serpent is satan/devil; to them I ask, are the disciples to be like satan/devil when they go out?
When God created all living things, HE created the serpent as the most “cunning” beast of the field. Please don’t confuse Adam as being one of these “beasts”; Adam was God caretaker in the garden and was created in God’s image and the beasts were not.
Hi DT,
I think a good starting point is looking at definitions.
As for “Free Will” – the ability or discretion to choose; free choice, unforced choice.
I most definitely believe that people are given the freedom to make their own choices. I would be much happier if people just said we have “free choice”, then I wouldn’t have a problem.
Choices, particularly important ones, aren’t just decided out of thin air though now are they? People use their life experiences and their accumulated knowledge to reach decisions. These are factors that are unique for each person and why then we see people who are given the same exact options will end up making a different choice, right? A PERSON MAKES CHOICES OR DECISIONS FROM THEIR WILL, the will itself though is not free, it has been subjected to certain factors, factors that have been out of the person’s control. A person who was abused and neglected by his parents, that abuse and neglect directly shaped his will, and that will is where he draws his choices or decisions from.
Back to definitions,
Satan in Hebrew phonetically is saw-tawn and it means adversary, it does not mean fallen angel. Humans are called saw-tawn in scripture and also God’s faithful angels are called saw-tawn in scripture.
Satan in Greek phonetically is sat-an-as and it means adversary, it does not mean fallen angel. Human is called sat-an-as in scripture, Peter.
Devil in Greek is diabolos and it means slanderer/false accuser a deceiver, it doe not mean fallen angel. A human is called a diabolos in scripture, a Roman emperor.
Dragon does not mean fallen angel
Beast does not mean fallen angel
Angel/Hebrew mal-awk’/Greek ang’-el-os means messenger and can be either human or celestial.
Satan and Devil have no business in the English translations they are there because translators were under their own corrupted beliefs. I believe in some verses translators used angel when it should have been rendered messenger for the same reason.
Throughout the bible we are given that the human carnal mind lies and slanders from it’s own crafty imagination and when it does it’s being referred to as none other than a serpent.
If it is the carnal mind that brings forth death as Paul tells us, and eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil brings forth death, what does that tell you? It tells us that they ate the fruit of their own way, following their own carnal mind instead of God’s instruction.
Yes, we read a punishment given to Adam and one given to Eve, then one is given to the serpent/carnal mind, what’s the problem? God can’t give punishment that affects all, both male humans and female humans also?
You quote II Pet 2 and verse 4 you state:
“Verse 4 is not talking about celestial messengers it is talking about God’s messengers the prophets who sinned.”
Except when looking up the word angel the Greek ἀγγέλων means “a messenger, angel” and according to Strong’s the understanding of this passage is “Certain of the angels have proved faithless to the trust committed to them by God, and have given themselves up to sin.” This passage you cite is in fact speaking of angels and not prophets, explain how or why you assert the “angel” spoken of are prophets.
You didn’t answer if the angels have “free choice.” If they don’t have “free choice” and can only do what God commands, how is it possible an angel can “sin”? If they do have “free choice” then they can make a wrong “choice” and thus fall as man has; except, that really doesn’t align with what the Tanakh says. Even “Sa-tan” was only allowed to do to Job what God said and whenever and angel is spoken of in the Tanakh, that angel is doing only what God has commanded. So angels do not have “freewill/free choice.”
I agree with everyone of your definitions of sa-tan, devil, dragon, etc; HOWEVER, the modern church has made each of these a “being” who’s an enemy of God. Is this a false teaching?
You: “Yes, we read a punishment given to Adam and one given to Eve, then one is given to the serpent/carnal mind, what’s the problem?”
Me: The punishment was given to three; if the serpent is the carnal mind of man, explain the correlation of the carnal mind of man crawling on its belly and food tasting of dust. When I see snakes today, this is exactly what they do.
Out of curiosity, what is your faith or what faith do you most closely identify with?
Hi DT,
ang’-el-os in the NT is used to speak of human messengers ALSO.
According to Strong’s the word means messenger and could be applied to both celestial messengers OR HUMAN messengers.
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger (angelos) before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Same scripture in Luke however instead of messenger Luke uses prophet, they are interchangeable as a prophet of God IS a messenger of God.
Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
The prophets in Jeremiah 23 were human prophets of God, but these messengers sinned.
Jeremiah 23: 9 Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness…..11 for both prophet and priests are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness” they shall be driven on, and fall therein:…..14 they are unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
We read of this in Jude 1 also, not just in 2 Peter 2,
Jude 1: 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.6 messengers also, those who did not keep their own principality, but did leave their proper dwelling, to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept, 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner ..
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,…4 For if God spared not the messengers that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
My position stands, in both 2 Peter 2 and Jude 1 we are being given examples of HUMANS that sinned, messengers/prophets that sinned. The message being given is that God knows how to punish humans that sinned, where they are reserved for judgment day.
Hi DT,
I have not found one scripture in the bible that actually substantiates there are wicked celestial messengers rebelling against God nor play any part of human life on earth.
This is one very telling truth about angels from the bible,
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Equal to the angels not being able to die, SIN = DEATH, righteousness =eternal life. This tells me that the angels must be righteous otherwise they would be able to die.
Numbers 22:21 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab. 22 And God’s anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (SAW-TAWN) against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.
God’s angel was an adversary/saw-tawn unto Balaam, he wasn’t an adversary to God. This is the same of the saw-tawn in the book of Job, he was an adversary/saw-tawn to Job not to God. As you so greatly pointed out, he followed God’s commands, which is the opposite of a rebel.
YOU: You didn’t answer if the angels have “free choice.” If they don’t have “free choice” and can only do what God commands, how is it possible an angel can “sin”? If they do have “free choice” then they can make a wrong “choice” and thus fall as man has.
ME: I am not quite following you here exactly and you now know from what I just said earlier in this post that I don’t think that angels can sin, so seems like a moot point now.
Does Jesus have free choice, will we have free choice in the resurrection when we receive the promised Spirit and will walk in all of God’s ways? Yes indeed, we are not going to be mindless puppets. Freedom to choose isn’t all about right and wrong, right? I mean, I like the harp just fine, but I am hoping that David might choose to pick up playing the guitar or piano too.
YOU: I agree with everyone of your definitions of sa-tan, devil, dragon, etc; HOWEVER, the modern church has made each of these a “being” who’s an enemy of God. Is this a false teaching?
ME: SWEET, glad you agree and yes this is a prime example of false teaching, that’s what I have been trying to prove this whole time.
YOU: The punishment was given to three; if the serpent is the carnal mind of man, explain the correlation of the carnal mind of man crawling on its belly and food tasting of dust. When I see snakes today, this is exactly what they do.
ME: Yes it is what snakes do, I will give you that for sure.
Maybe you missed what I said before because I don’t see you referencing it.
What about the punishment given to the serpent and the enmity God brought forth?
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life
Do we really look at serpents today out of all the living that God had made and say whoa, those snakes have really got it bad? Uh, no that’s absurd.
The human carnal mind though most certainly has it bad.
Psalms 44:25 For bowed to the dust hath our soul, Cleaved to the earth hath our belly.
Micah 7:17 They lick dust as a serpent, as fearful things of earth,
Hebrews 2: 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Lick the dust as a serpent! A serpent survives by licking dust, he uses his tongue and draws in particles that give him much needed info in order to survive. The carnal mind is in bondage to the fear of death where man relies on his carnal mind in order to survive.
Mortality and death brought the carnal mind into bondage where mankind now had to serve the flesh in order to live.
What I love about these scriptures is that they speak to me the REALITY of the actually observable human condition.
YOU: Out of curiosity, what is your faith or what faith do you most closely identify with?
ME: My brother Gene’s! When it comes to this topic specifically though I was enlightened by the Christadelphians in the late spring of 2007. I stumbled upon them from a computer search looking up stuff about Satan. I can’t forget it because I was so intrigued that I couldn’t sleep at all for 2 days and 2 nights as I just had to re-read so many passages. The contradiction I had been struggling with was being eliminated!
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