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T8………As you promote those who believe your case right? You say Jesus came form God “O” Well so did King Cyrus who was prophesied by mane to come 200 year before he actually did come, does that also mean He “PREEXISTED”. How can you say one was and the other was not?, John the Baptist and in fact all creation came from God, God sent us all into this world . What does that have to do with a “PREEXISTENT” Jesus or man or anything else, Except it proves God is the ONE in control of all things. So what if he Foreknew Cyrus , John the baptist, Jeremiah the Prophet and others or the man Jesus who is the Christ.
Truthfully the Trinitarians i can say at least understand God's Presence “IN” Jesus i will give them that , even though they wrongly believe that Jesus was a GOD or a “LITTLE” god as you believe he was. Both of you are wrong as concerning his Preexistence , It would prove nothing to man Kind for Jesus to have Preexisted as a Big God or littl God or any god as far as that goes. God was working with Mankind through a 100% human being who came into his existence by being “Born” Like all other Men are through a Women
You down play others as if scripture does not mention then as Preexisting in the plan and will of God but when it come to Jesus all the sudden He did Preexist as a “Sentinel” Being but not them, and Yet you produce not one scripture showing His “MORPHYING” Process taking Place . Simply Amazing So i would not say to much about LU and what she believes if i were you. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2013,07:42) Truthfully the Trinitarians i can say at least understand God's Presence “IN” Jesus i will give them that , even though they wrongly believe that Jesus was a GOD or a “LITTLE” god as you believe he was. Both of you are wrong as concerning his Preexistence , It would prove nothing to man Kind for Jesus to have Preexisted as a Big God or littl God or any god as far as that goes. God was working with Mankind through a 100% human being who came into his existence by being “Born” Like all other Men are through a Women
Word it your way to help your cause, but this is the way I word what I believe.Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and came in the flesh. He then died for our sins, was resurrected from the dead, and is now seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with God before the world began.
And we both know that you cannot attack what I have written above. That is why you reword what I say, so you can water it down and make it weak, and then attack it.
Please attack my statement in blue above and then I will address your view of what I believe.
Thanks in advance.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 26 2013,07:42) You down play others as if scripture does not mention then as Preexisting in the plan and will of God but when it come to Jesus all the sudden He did Preexist as a “Sentinel” Being but not them, and Yet you produce not one scripture showing His “MORPHYING” Process taking Place . Simply Amazing So i would not say to much about LU and what she believes if i were you. IMO
Not so. I have a number of references that show me.In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH God.
The Word became flesh.
God created all things through his Word.
And God created all things through his son.These are all scriptural.
And yet, we know who is of the Antichrist spirit, those who deny that Jesus CAME in the flesh. How do you deny that? A number of ways including teaching that Jesus is the flesh, not that he came in the flesh.
You cannot come in the flesh and actually be the flesh at the same time.
And guess what, even I am not flesh. Because I can be led by the flesh or the spirit proving I am neither. I am my mind and I can choose to be led by either.
And cursed is he that trusts in the flesh. If Jesus is flesh to you, then you are trusting in flesh.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:47) Mike, Quote #4 makes perfect sense if you understand that Jesus was not only after David, but also before him. It makes perfect sense IF….
If it makes perfect common sense, why do Gene, Kerwin, et al debate this constantly with you?
Gene, Kerwin, et al believe that when Jesus said he was both the Root AND the Offspring of David, he really meant he was both the Offspring AND the Offspring of David.It seems that they, like you, are not fully tuned in to their God-given common sense any time that common sense asks them to believe against their pre-conceived doctrines.
It make perfect sense to me though. How about to you?
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:50) So, who is saying that the Son is the Father? The Second Power of YHVH is the servant of the First Power of YHVH. No one is saying that the Second Power of YHVH is also the First Power of YHVH.
I believe it's only you who even speaks about a first and second power of YHWH.No one in scripture ever said the second power of YHWH was the first power of YHWH, because no one in scripture talked about such an asinine notion in the first place.
Kathi, my claim is that we have but ONE Almighty God. And any servant OF that Almighty God cannot also BE that Almighty God.
You know that this claim is accurate and sensible. You even know that this claim, in and of itself, refutes the Trinitarian belief with one swift blow.
And the only way you've worked around this clear and obvious fact is by inventing a SECOND Almighty God.
Does inventing a SECOND Almighty God really make sense to you, Kathi? I believe you invented a second God for yourself because of a combination of the following two things:
1. Stubborn insistence that Jesus IS God Almighty.
2. Acceptance that God is obviously not one being made up of three persons.
I think you are smart enough to know that the traditional Trinitarian 3 in 1 Godhead is ludicrous. But at the same time, you desperately WANT Jesus to be God as much as they do.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:03) It doesn't make sense with Moses, but IT DOES make sense with Christ ……………..
Why Kathi? Why would it be OBVIOUS that one particular servant of God could not be “God over all”, but not just as obvious that the other servant of God could not be “God over all”?Both servants of Jehovah are called gods in scripture. Both did many miracles, signs, and wonders. God's people have been baptized into both of their names.
So why one servant of God, and not the other?
Kathi, t8 made a very good point about this. We should be able to compare this “problem verse” with all the other words of Paul, when speaking about his God the Father, or his Lord Jesus Christ.
Over and over Paul makes it abundantly clear that the Father is his God, while Jesus is the one his God made Lord over him.
The following is just one of the MANY times Paul clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone other than, and lesser than his God, the Father:
Acts 13
16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers………….22 After removing Saul, he made David their king.
23 From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.”
Are you able to see that Paul didn't confuse Jesus with his and our God?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:06) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:47) Mike, Quote #4 makes perfect sense if you understand that Jesus was not only after David, but also before him. It makes perfect sense IF….
If it makes perfect common sense, why do Gene, Kerwin, et al debate this constantly with you?
Gene, Kerwin, et al believe that when Jesus said he was both the Root AND the Offspring of David, he really meant he was both the Offspring AND the Offspring of David.It seems that they, like you, are not fully tuned in to their God-given common sense any time that common sense asks them to believe against their pre-conceived doctrines.
It make perfect sense to me though. How about to you?
Actually, Mike,
I don't think that is what Gene, Kerwin, et al think. You are putting words in their mouth.You are comical to say that pre-existence is common sense, although I believe the Son did pre-exist, but it is not because common sense tells me this. Common sense tells me that no man exists before he is conceived. Spiritual wisdom tells us that the Son pre-existed His conception in Mary.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:03) It doesn't make sense with Moses, but IT DOES make sense with Christ ……………..
Why Kathi? Why would it be OBVIOUS that one particular servant of God could not be “God over all”, but not just as obvious that the other servant of God could not be “God over all”?Both servants of Jehovah are called gods in scripture. Both did many miracles, signs, and wonders. God's people have been baptized into both of their names.
So why one servant of God, and not the other?
Kathi, t8 made a very good point about this. We should be able to compare this “problem verse” with all the other words of Paul, when speaking about his God the Father, or his Lord Jesus Christ.
Over and over Paul makes it abundantly clear that the Father is his God, while Jesus is the one his God made Lord over him.
The following is just one of the MANY times Paul clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone other than, and lesser than his God, the Father:
Acts 13
16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers………….22 After removing Saul, he made David their king.
23 From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.”
Are you able to see that Paul didn't confuse Jesus with his and our God?
Jesus Greater Than MosesHeb 3:1Therefore, holy brothers,a you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God’sb house. 3For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. 4(For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) 5Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, 6but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.c
Regarding Paul, from the roots of Jesse, came the shoot of Jesse. The roots sent the shoot. Jesus is the root and shoot of Jesse/David. Paul talks about Jesus sometimes as the root, sometimes as the root AND the shoot, and sometimes as the shoot only, in different contexts.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:50) So, who is saying that the Son is the Father? The Second Power of YHVH is the servant of the First Power of YHVH. No one is saying that the Second Power of YHVH is also the First Power of YHVH.
I believe it's only you who even speaks about a first and second power of YHWH.No one in scripture ever said the second power of YHWH was the first power of YHWH, because no one in scripture talked about such an asinine notion in the first place.
Kathi, my claim is that we have but ONE Almighty God. And any servant OF that Almighty God cannot also BE that Almighty God.
You know that this claim is accurate and sensible. You even know that this claim, in and of itself, refutes the Trinitarian belief with one swift blow.
And the only way you've worked around this clear and obvious fact is by inventing a SECOND Almighty God.
Does inventing a SECOND Almighty God really make sense to you, Kathi? I believe you invented a second God for yourself because of a combination of the following two things:
1. Stubborn insistence that Jesus IS God Almighty.
2. Acceptance that God is obviously not one being made up of three persons.
I think you are smart enough to know that the traditional Trinitarian 3 in 1 Godhead is ludicrous. But at the same time, you desperately WANT Jesus to be God as much as they do.
The two powers of YHVH is a documented understanding, not just mine. You need to watch the videos I put up to see this, the facts aren't just going to drop in your lap. The videos are full of scriptures and historical facts…I double dare you to watch them. ha.videos found here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….37;st=0So, you can't say that I am the only one speaking about a first and second power of YHVH. The videos prove you wrong on that.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2013,15:37) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,03:47) Mike, Quote #4 makes perfect sense if you understand that Jesus was not only after David, but also before him. It makes perfect sense IF….
If it makes perfect common sense, why do Gene, Kerwin, et al debate this constantly with you?
Oh, Gene and Kerwin are the authority on scripture.
I wasn't aware of that. I am sure you don't follow them, but when convenient promote them when it helps your case.“And this is eternal life, that they believe in you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.”
t8,
You don't do too well when you jump in the middle of a conversation between me and another person sometimes. This is one of those times.I was talking about common sense. If it was common sense that a person pre-exists his conception, then Gene and Kerwin would have no problem with it.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2013,15:29) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,03:45) Mike? Quote #1 is not only lacking common sense, but also lacks a single shred of scriptural support. You, who speak frequently about the pre-existence of Christ now don't believe He existed before conception? No scriptural support you say??
Kathi.John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.You have failed this scripture.
- You don't believe that God is your Father, rather you believe that the Father is and perhaps Jesus is too.
- You don't believe that Jesus came from God because you believe that he is God.
I pray to the Father in Yeshua's name that he will give you a moment of sobriety so you can see this.
Jesus said two big things in that verse that you ought to believe if you claim to follow him as your lord. As it stands now, you oppose Jesus on these 2 points and we have been teaching both here for years now.
Why not embrace the truth. It is the best thing for your soul. Or will you be like those obstinate Jews whom Jesus was talking to that argued against Jesus teachings as you are.
Jesus said that He was the Root and the Shoot, not just the Shoot.Isaiah says that from the roots (plural) came the shoot.
Rev 22:16 says the root (singular) and the shoot are Jesus.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,08:45) Mike? Quote #1 is not only lacking common sense, but also lacks a single shred of scriptural support. You, who speak frequently about the pre-existence of Christ now don't believe He existed before conception? No scriptural support you say??
Bump for Mike.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,21:36) Quote (t8 @ Feb. 24 2013,15:29) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 25 2013,03:45) Mike? Quote #1 is not only lacking common sense, but also lacks a single shred of scriptural support. You, who speak frequently about the pre-existence of Christ now don't believe He existed before conception? No scriptural support you say??
Kathi.John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.You have failed this scripture.
- You don't believe that God is your Father, rather you believe that the Father is and perhaps Jesus is too.
- You don't believe that Jesus came from God because you believe that he is God.
I pray to the Father in Yeshua's name that he will give you a moment of sobriety so you can see this.
Jesus said two big things in that verse that you ought to believe if you claim to follow him as your lord. As it stands now, you oppose Jesus on these 2 points and we have been teaching both here for years now.
Why not embrace the truth. It is the best thing for your soul. Or will you be like those obstinate Jews whom Jesus was talking to that argued against Jesus teachings as you are.
Jesus said that He was the Root and the Shoot, not just the Shoot.Isaiah says that from the roots (plural) came the shoot.
Rev 22:16 says the root (singular) and the shoot are Jesus.
That is no answer to what I wrote.You are only kidding yourself here.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,21:33) t8,
You don't do too well when you jump in the middle of a conversation between me and another person sometimes. This is one of those times.I was talking about common sense. If it was common sense that a person pre-exists his conception, then Gene and Kerwin would have no problem with it.
In other words, if they are the judges of common sense, then they have failed you.As it stands, they ignore common sense too.
“Before Abraham, I am”. They ignore that among many others.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 26 2013,22:46) Kathi. John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.You have failed this scripture.
And this one.Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
It's not like it isn't an important scripture.
If you want to play dice with your soul, then it is your soul to risk. I wouldn't be so reckless, and take the risk of opposing this myself. To me, salvation of my soul is that important, I am willing to be wrong in order to get right.
We teach that Jesus came from God.
Kathi teaches that Jesus is God.John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Jesus is with us Kathi.
We also teach that the Father is God and God made Jesus Lord.
Kathi teaches that Jesus is God and Lord and the Father is too.1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Paul is with us Kathi.
We teach that Jesus is given revelation from God and only says what he hears his God saying.
You believe that Jesus is God.Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,John is with us Kathi.
Jesus, Paul, and John teach what we teach.
You teach against them all.
You need to examine your doctrine and life closely Kathi.
Do not harden your heart.T8………> Why is it you can't produce one “SPECIFIC” Scripture attesting to the Preexistence of Jesus, before his berth on this earth, if you or anyone else could there would not be any contention of what those scriptures meant . Why do you have to add thought to them as if they say what in fact the don't specifically say why do you think there exists Non trinitarians and non Preexistences in the first place. Do you actually believe we are to stupid to understand what those scriptures you falsely us could have different meaning and that even the words used in some of them have many other meanings in the Greek language.
Heres all you have to do produce “ONE” scripture stating this, “Jesus Christ was alive before his berth on this earth” That is all you have to do and this discussion would be over. But you can't so you just force the text to say what it may or may not say. Your even so brazen as to change word themselves to force a sentence to mean something not even written in it like John1:1 and it doesn't seem to bother you people at all, even your owm fellow Preexistence Scholars say you can't use it as a Proof text about Jesus' preexistnce.
T8 Just one clear , Specific, absolute, statemnet that says Jesus Christ was alive as a beign before his berth on this earth that is all we need or He was morphed from one state of a being to another that will work also brother. If you cant then it is only your “opinions” of what scripture means is all you got. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………….gene
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:06)
Gene, Kerwin, et al believe that when Jesus said he was both the Root AND the Offspring of David, he really meant he was both the Offspring AND the Offspring of David.
Actually, Mike,
I don't think that is what Gene, Kerwin, et al think. You are putting words in their mouth.
Ask them!
They believe “The Root of David” means “FROM the roots of David”.And because of that understanding, they believe that in Rev 22:16, Jesus is being redundant by telling us he is “from the roots of David and the offspring of David”.
I point out that their claim means Jesus was basically saying, “I am the offspring AND the offspring of David” – but they don't care.
(Besides, I do my best to only put words in YOUR mouth.
)Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:04) You are comical to say that pre-existence is common sense,
The idea of people pre-existing their flesh, in and of itself, is not common sense. What I mean is that it only takes common sense to understand that this is what the words of many scriptures teach about Jesus.Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:04) Spiritual wisdom tells us that the Son pre-existed His conception in Mary.
That might be true, but spiritual wisdom surely isn't NECESSARY to understand that the scriptures clearly teach that Jesus pre-existed his flesh. Anyone with a lick of common sense can figure that out just from reading the words of the scriptures that speak about his pre-existence.If you disagree, perhaps we could have Stu help us out on the subject. He is definitely not what we'd call “spiritual” when it comes to theological things, but I'd be willing to bet his common sense would easily tell him, not that Jesus did pre-exist, but that the scriptures clearly TEACH that he did.
At any rate, my point is that it only takes a little common sense to read scriptures like John 1:14, 17:5, and Phil 2:6-8 – and easily come to the conclusion that the Bible teaches the pre-existence of Christ. (You might remember that some of us made a pre-existent database, which lists over 50 scriptures that speak to the pre-existence of Christ. It takes no more than a little common sense to understand that those scriptures ARE saying Jesus pre-existed.)
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 26 2013,01:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 25 2013,17:52) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 24 2013,07:03) It doesn't make sense with Moses, but IT DOES make sense with Christ ……………..
Why Kathi? Why would it be OBVIOUS that one particular servant of God could not be “God over all”, but not just as obvious that the other servant of God could not be “God over all”?Both servants of Jehovah are called gods in scripture. Both did many miracles, signs, and wonders. God's people have been baptized into both of their names.
So why one servant of God, and not the other?
Kathi, t8 made a very good point about this. We should be able to compare this “problem verse” with all the other words of Paul, when speaking about his God the Father, or his Lord Jesus Christ.
Over and over Paul makes it abundantly clear that the Father is his God, while Jesus is the one his God made Lord over him.
The following is just one of the MANY times Paul clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone other than, and lesser than his God, the Father:
Acts 13
16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers………….22 After removing Saul, he made David their king.
23 From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.”
Are you able to see that Paul didn't confuse Jesus with his and our God?
Jesus Greater Than Moses
Agreed. And God is greater than Jesus, right?Your answer doesn't explain how any SERVANT OF God could be “God over all”.
Also, please tell me who the God of the people of Israel is – according to Acts 13:17, as quoted above.
Then tell me, according to verse 23, if Jesus IS that God of the people of Israel – or someone OTHER THAN that God – someone who that God SENT.
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