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Hi TC,
All are raised to face judgement.
Only those who find mercy are saved.
That mercy is specified in Matthew 25.
Stay within the revelation of our God.
Hi TC,
You define THOSE WHO SEE as THOSE WHO AGREE WITH YOU.
But your relationship with revelation is rather distant.
Hi Nick,
You: What you think and say is only true as it aligns with scripture.
Most of it is from you.
Gnosticism.Me:
Adoptionist Gnostics said Jesus was a regular man, but when he was baptized by John a divine power descended on him and he was “adopted” as the Son of God.
http://www.humanreligions.info/gnosticism.html
Revert back to the pre-orthodox (pre-Nicene) translation, in accordance with original manuscripts, and you revert to the phrasing that adoptionist Christians used, but which was suppressed and hidden by later literalist Christians.
3.2. Adoptionism (The True God Adopted Jesus
“The very first Christians, the Ebionites16, Nazorenes, Gnostic Christians and others, were all adoptionists. In accordance with the first hundred years of Christian belief and with the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, Jesus was born in a normal way like the rest of us, to his parents, Joseph and Mary, from the line of David as prophesized (Matt. 1:1,9:27, Luke 1:32, John 7:41-3, Acts 13:23, 2 Tim. 2:8, Rev. 5:5 and 22:16). Jesus kept God’s laws so well that on his baptism, God adopted him as his son (as per Matt. 3:16, Mark 1:9-10 and Luke 3:22. In older manuscripts Luke 3:22 quotes Psalm 2:7: “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”), and sent him to the cross as a truly innocent, perfect sacrifice, to atone for the sins of all mankind, to fulfil promises made in the Jewish scriptures. God signalled to the world that this sacrifice had been accepted by raising Jesus from the dead and raising him up directly into heaven. The doctrine of the Virgin Birth, so popular amongst Roman mystery religions and paganism at the time, was never accepted by adoptionists17. It was only hundreds of years later when the concept of the Trinity was codified by the Pauline/Cappadocian Christians that adoptionist beliefs became condemned; yet, it represented the truer and original form of Christian belief.18”
“Christian Adoptionism and the Baptism of Jesus Christ: Centuries of Belief Before the Trinity” by Vexen Crabtree (2011)Me: So who is the Gnostic? It is you.
Hi Nick,
You:
All are raised to face judgement.
Only those who find mercy are saved.
That mercy is specified in Matthew 25.Stay within the revelation of our God.
Me: The judgment of the saints at the first resurrection is the bestowing of their reward, not the judgment to see if they are rewarded or punished. The later judgment comes after the millennium.
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Me: This is a judgment of reward and glory only.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Prov 11:18 The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Me: The judgment here is purely positive.
Get your mind out of the gutter!
Adoptionist Gnostics said Jesus was a regular man, but when he was baptized by John a divine power descended on him and he was “adopted” as the Son of God.
Is this what Nick is?
I am not saying Nick believes everything that Adoptionist Gnostics believed. I am saying that what you just quoted is a main tenet of Adoptionist Gnosticism and also of what Nick believes.
TC…..Nick was not speaking of the adoptionest gnostics, he was speaking g of the Gnostic’s of the apostles day. AND HE IS RIGHT, they were the original one to caused the church to go into idolatry, because the preached Jesus as a God from the pelora of the Gods, they denied the baptizm of Jesus, because they believed he was a God already and didn’t need to be anointed by God. They also believed JESUS WAS ONLY DESGUISED AS A MAN, not a real human being, but in fact was a God.
You keep bringing in the present GNOSTIC beliefs, which had nothing to do with the Gnostic’s of the first century.
Nick is right your teachings are more in line with what the first century gnostic’s taught, because they as you believed in the prexistence of JESUS, DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT ALSO?, also the believed JESUS did not need to be baptized after his appearance on this earth, because he was born a GOD, SO IN THAT WAY THEY DENIED his fleshly existence and his needing to be baptized to become the Messiah of GOD,
Your knowledge of the GNOSTIC’S OF THE TIME OF JESUS is completely wrong, but you can find it easely on the internet, you need to make a Web search of the teaching of the Gnostic’s at the time of the first century, their teachings were in line with the pagan Greek Platoian concepts, and nothing like you are saying the taught at that time.
I have made major studies of their original teaching and they completely disagree with what you say they taught at the first century. They were to one’s the Apostle John coined the phrase “ANTICHRIST’S ” , because they did not believe Jesus was a flesh and blood human being , but was only desguised as one, they also taught he was a preexisting GOD, DENYING that Jesus actually came into his existence as a flesh and blood human being and therefore would need to be anointed with the HOLY SPIRIT to become the MESSIAH OF GOD. That is why he called them “ANTI-ANOINTERS” OR Anti-christo’s or ANTICHRIST S.
YOU UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE GNOSTIC’S of the first century taught is GREATLY DESTORTED.
NICK was right you are teaching Gnostic’s concepts as many SO CALLED CHRISTIAN ‘S ARE ALSO. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours . ………gene
Hi TC,
Yes those led by the Spirit do not face judgement but have already been raised
and have passed over from death to life by the time of the judgement in Matt 25.31
But there is yet hope for those raised in the second resurrection.
God is love and shows his bountiful mercy to those who showed love to the brothers of Jesus.
Those who do not show love to them will hear instead
’Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels..’
Nick:
You:
Yes those led by the Spirit do not face judgement but have already been raised
and have passed over from death to life by the time of the judgement in Matt 25.31
Me: True, why then did you make the statement:All are raised to face judgment.
Gene:
You: TC…..Nick was not speaking of the adoptionest gnostics, he was speaking g of the Gnostic’s of the apostles day. AND HE IS RIGHT, they were the original one to caused the church to go into idolatry, because the preached Jesus as a God from the pelora of the Gods, they denied the baptizm of Jesus, because they believed he was a God already and didn’t need to be anointed by God. They also believed JESUS WAS ONLY DESGUISED AS A MAN, not a real human being, but in fact was a God.
Me First of all, Nick is not right, neither are you. Secondly, I am not addressing what I think Nick meant when he called me an Gnostic. I am showing both of you that your thinking is in line with adoptionest Gnostics.
Quote from the article.
“Adoptionist Gnostics said Jesus was a regular man, but when he was baptized by John a divine power descended on him and he was “adopted” as the Son of God.”Secondly, there were many different Gnostic groups, ALL IN JESUS’S DAY and present at the time of the apostles and beyond. This includes the Adoptionest Gnostics.
Quote:
“whereas many academics find that the historical and archaeological evidence is unclear: Christianity and Gnosticism are related, but, and although we don’t yet know which one came first, it seems that early Christianity was much more Gnostic than it is now, and perhaps the Gnostic/literalist divide simply didn’t exist for the first two centuries of Christian history. By the 7th century, literalist Christians had overwhelmed Gnosticism and related forms of Christianity, leaving us with modern Trinitarian Christianity.”
Thirdly, they none of them believed that Jesus was a God from the plethora of the Gods as you say. They all took him as a mere man. Quote:
“[Gnostic Christians] held that the sensible world had been created by an inferior deity named Ialdabaoth, the rebellious son of Sophia (heavenly wisdom). He, they said, is the Yahweh of the Old Testament, while the serpent, so far from being wicked, was engaged in warning Eve against his deceptions. For a long time, the supreme deity allowed Ialdabaoth free play; at last He sent His Son to inhabit temporarily the body of the man Jesus, and to liberate the world from the false teaching of Moses.
Me:
3.2. Adoptionism (The True God Adopted Jesus
“The very first Christians, the Ebionites16, Nazorenes, Gnostic Christians and others, were all adoptionists. In accordance with the first hundred years of Christian belief and with the oldest manuscripts of the Bible,Gene:
You: Nick is right your teachings are more in line with what the first century gnostic’s taught, because they as you believed in the prexistence of JESUS, DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT ALSO?, also the believed JESUS did not need to be baptized after his appearance on this earth, because he was born a GOD, SO IN THAT WAY THEY DENIED his fleshly existence and his needing to be baptized to become the Messiah of GOD,
Me: Again, you do not have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. The Gnostics did not believe what you just stated as I have shown above On the other hand, I have always said that Jesus was a man from the seed of David created without sin. I have always said that the Word became one with the man Christ. That God was in Christ through the Word. The Word together with the man Christ became the Word. Both were created.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Me: I have also said, that the Word had a beginning but was before all of the rest of creation in which he was the express image of God, in which God created all things through him as if he was God.
John 1:1 In (the) beginning (1510. eimi) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning (1510. eimi) with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
1510.eimi
Definition
beginning, origin
NASB Translation beginning: (38), corners (2), domain (1), elementary (1), elementary* (1), first (1), first preaching (1), principalities (1), rule (4), rulers (6).
Me: I have presented what I feel is a good article. I could present more. You have not presented any scripture or historical evidence of what you believe.Gene:
Me: Your emphasis and fetishism on the physical body as one of the pillars of salvation is based on Mormonism.
https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Physical_Body
Quote: “Together, the physical body and the spirit constitute the soul (D&C 88:15). The salvation of the soul requires perfection of both body and spirit God the Father and Jesus Christ, both perfected and glorified beings, possess tangible resurrected bodies of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22). The Prophet Joseph Smith stated, “No person can have this salvation except through a tabernacle” (TPJS, p. 297; see also D&C 93:35). To become like God, his children, too, must obtain physical bodies. “We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the Celestial Kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body
I am not saying Nick believes everything that Adoptionist Gnostics believed. I am saying that what you just quoted is a main tenet of Adoptionist Gnosticism and also of what Nick believes.
I guess I better ask him directly.
@nickhassan are you an Adoptionist Gnostic? If so, what denomination do you belong to?TC…..I AM NOT A MORMON, nor do I practice their attend their churches. I had a study once with them and proved them wrong to the point they could not answer my questions to them even their elders couldn’t, they say they are different them the rest of christanity, but use a bible that has only a third of exact copies of our bible, and I told them why should I use a bible that only has part of what my bible has, and seening they could answer my questions why follow them? But they do have somethings right.
But my problem with you is you are not telling the truth about what the original Gnostic’s taught at the time of the apostles, when they caused the church to fall into idolatry .
You said,,,,, they did not preach JESUS AS A GOD, that is a lie, because they believed he was a God sent out from the pelora of the God’s to correct what the God of creation did, they also taught that Jesus was only desguised as a man but in fact was a God sent from the pelora of the Gods. That is a fact, I can show you that the Internet if you like, I an sure you know that, so you come back and say there were all kinds of different gnostic’s . Wrong again, I know what the study of them showed and you are talking about modern GNOSTIC’S, NOT the Gnostic’s of the first century.
You believe Jesus is the word of God, he is not! He has that title because he spoke the Fathers words to us. Or haven’t you ever read this, “the words I am telling you , ARE (NOT) my words , but the Words OF HIM WHO SENT ME. , have you thrown that part out of you bibles you quote from? JESUS AND THE WORD OF GOD ARE NOT THE SAME THING, as you falsely assume. You seem unable to seperate them.
I will try to look up some of the original gnostic teachings sites and get them to you.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
You believe Jesus is the word of God, he is not! He has that title because he spoke the Fathers words to us. Or haven’t you ever read this, “the words I am telling you , ARE (NOT) my words , but the Words OF HIM WHO SENT ME. , have you thrown that part out of you bibles you quote from?
Maybe he is the Word of God because he speaks the words of God? We know he is the truth right and that is because… he speaks the truth of God. We know he is the life right? Because he is the way to the Father who is the father of spirits.
All things come from God and living beings tend to be called by the godly attributes they shine.
Hi T8,
No I am not a follower of Paul, Apollos, the Greeks or Constantine.
The Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary is my Lord and Saviour.
The Sinless and Holy child of God, reborn of God at the Jordan.
How about you as confusion seems to rule you?
Hi All,
Gene: You said,,,,, they did not preach JESUS AS A GOD, that is a lie, because they believed he was a God sent out from the pelora of the God’s to correct what the God of creation did, they also taught that Jesus was only desguised as a man but in fact was a God sent from the pelora of the Gods. That is a fact, I can show you that the Internet if you like, I an sure you know that, so you come back and say there were all kinds of different gnostic’s . Wrong again, I know what the study of them showed and you are talking about modern GNOSTIC’S, NOT the Gnostic’s of the first century.
Me: As you should have notice, I am quoting an article not written by me. I have read other articles about the Gnostics believing that Christ was just a man and that he was baptized and received the holy spirit at Jordon. This is what you and Nick believe. The article is a good one and is mostly about ancient Gnosticism, not modern Gnosticism, although their core beliefs are the same. It has many good references.
Quote: “Gnosticism is an ancient religion stemming from the first century (approximately),
Me: This tells me that Gnosticism is basically the same today.
Quote: There were a huge number of Gnostic groups1,2, sharing a common set of core beliefs. An inferior angelic being created the Earth, …
Me: This does not say that Christ created the earth.
Quote: [Gnostic Christians] held that the sensible world had been created by an inferior deity named Ialdabaoth, the rebellious son of Sophia (heavenly wisdom). He, they said, is the Yahweh of the Old Testament, while the serpent, so far from being wicked, was engaged in warning Eve against his deceptions. For a long time, the supreme deity allowed Ialdabaoth free play; at last He sent His Son to inhabit temporarily the body of the man Jesus, and to liberate the world from the false teaching of Moses.”
“History of Western Philosophy” by Bertrand Russell (1946)5Me: This says that the Gnostics believed that Ialdabaoth, who is the Yahweh of the OT created the universe, not Christ.
Quote; 3. The Role of Jesus in Gnosticism
“Most Gnostics [believed] that Christ was a divine emissary from above, totally spirit, and that he entered the man Jesus temporarily in order to convey the knowledge that can liberate sparks from their material imprisonment. […] At the baptism, Christ entered into Jesus (in the form of a dove, as in the New Testament Gospels); …
“Lost Christianities” by Bart Ehrman (2003)14Me: Sound familiar to your falsehoods.
Quote:
3.2. Adoptionism (The True God Adopted Jesus)
“The very first Christians, the Ebionites16, Nazorenes, Gnostic Christians and others, were all adoptionists. In accordance with the first hundred years of Christian belief and with the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, Jesus was born in a normal way like the rest of us, to his parents, Joseph and Mary, from the line of David as prophesized (Matt. 1:1,9:27, Luke 1:32, John 7:41-3, Acts 13:23, 2 Tim. 2:8, Rev. 5:5 and 22:16). Jesus kept God’s laws so well that on his baptism, God adopted him as his son (as per Matt. 3:16, Mark 1:9-10 and Luke 3:22. In older manuscripts Luke 3:22 quotes Psalm 2:7 “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”), and sent him to the cross as a truly innocent, perfect sacrifice, to atone for the sins of all mankind, to fulfil promises made in the Jewish scriptures. God signalled to the world that this sacrifice had been accepted by raising Jesus from the dead and raising him up directly into heaven.Me: sound familiar to your falsehoods and lack of understanding even when it is plainly show to you. How can you say I am referring to modern Gnosticism? The article is mostly about ancient Gnosticism.
Hi All,
Gene: You believe Jesus is the word of God, he is not! He has that title because he spoke the Fathers words to us. Or haven’t you ever read this, “the words I am telling you , ARE (NOT) my words , but the Words OF HIM WHO SENT ME. , have you thrown that part out of you bibles you quote from? JESUS AND THE WORD OF GOD ARE NOT THE SAME THING, as you falsely assume. You seem unable to seperate them.
Me: Yes, they were not the same, but they are now the same. Your understanding of this seems to be zero. The Word of God (John 1:14) was brought forth before the beginning of all creation (John 1:1). He bonded as one with the embryo Yashua and continued his bond reaching full maturity at his death (John 7:39) “(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet _____…” The holy spirit in the form of the Word was given after Pentecost. It had the heart and mind of the man Jesus bonded to it. We could then be baptized of the holy spirit into eternal life.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
The Word is the express image of God and is God in that it functions as God.
You: I will try to look up some of the original gnostic teachings sites and get them to you.
Me: Good luck! You have not found any so far that bolsters your false position. You have a dozen or so references in the article I presented.
Hi All,
Gene: TC…..I AM NOT A MORMON, nor do I practice their attend their churches. I had a study once with them and proved them wrong to the point they could not answer my questions to them even their elders couldn’t, they say they are different them the rest of christanity, but use a bible that has only a third of exact copies of our bible, and I told them why should I use a bible that only has part of what my bible has, and seening they could answer my questions why follow them? But they do have somethings right. But my problem with you is you are not telling the truth about what the original Gnostic’s taught at the time of the apostles, when they caused the church to fall into idolatry.
Me: Let’s talk about apples and not oranges. I didn’t say that you are a Mormon. I just quoted for you some of their teachings that you seems to subscribe to. Again:
Your emphasis and fetishism on the physical body as one of the pillars of salvation is based on Mormonism.https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Physical_Body
Quote: “Together, the physical body and the spirit constitute the soul (D&C 88:15). The salvation of the soul requires perfection of both body and spirit God the Father and Jesus Christ, both perfected and glorified beings, possess tangible resurrected bodies of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22). The Prophet Joseph Smith stated, “No person can have this salvation except through a tabernacle” (TPJS, p. 297; see also D&C 93:35). To become like God, his children, too, must obtain physical bodies. “We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the Celestial Kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body.
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