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Hi All,
New International Version
John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,6 Tim 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amien.
Me: And no one ever will hear and see the Father, save seeing the Messiah who is a direct image or representation of him.
TC…..Whose word?, (God’s word ) came into being , that was the word of prophesy that God gave to his prophets , concerning the, “man” Jesus, “it” came into existence as the flesh “MAN” Jesus ( who would become, the anointed one) of God. None of that means Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth as a centinel being, somewhere else.
I am not saying you believe he did preexist, as I believe you don’t believe he preexisted either.
Peaceand love to you and yours. ………gene
Gene:
Gene,
You: TC…..Whose word?, (God’s word ) came into being , that was the word of prophesy that God gave to his prophets , concerning the, “man” Jesus, “it” came into existence as the flesh “MAN” Jesus ( who would become, the anointed one) of God. None of that means Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth as a centinel being, somewhere else.
Me: Who do you think gave the word of prophecy since no one has ever heard the voice nor seen the Father? The Word of God gave it to them who became one with the seed of David (John 1:14).
6 Tim 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amien.
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Me: The light here is not just visible light but understanding. God gives understanding through his word, which Christ who is the expression of himself.
Rev 19:10 …for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy…. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Gene, I have explained this to you above and on other posts. The testimony of Jesus is the Word of God in him, which is spirit, which is of the mind of the Word made in the image of God. If you still want to believe that God spoke directly to the Moses and the prophets, then I cannot help you anymore. I wish not to go on to part 1, 2, and forever.
TC…..I think your wrong , people have heard the word of God before Jesus existed and after him also. Adam and Eve both were speaking to God and he also spoke to them. Also read Dut 5:26 -31, there are many scriptures that God has and does speaks to people . TC , Jesus was telling those Pharisies that “they” haven’t heard his voice nor seen him . I have never hear of a scripture that say no one has not heard his voice before. Even Moses told the Israelites that they heard his voice speaking to them. And also said no other nation has, but they had.
Mark 1:11….And there came a “voice” from heaven, saying thou art my beloved Son , “in” whom I am well pleased.
JOHN 12:28…. FATHER, glorify thy name , then there came a “voice ” from heaven, saying , “I have glorified it, and wI’ll glorify it again’.
You might have to give this some more thought TC.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Gene:
You: I think your wrong , people have heard the word of God before Jesus existed and after him also. Adam and Eve both were speaking to God and he also spoke to them.
Mark 1:11….And there came a “voice” from heaven, saying thou art my beloved Son , “in” whom I am well pleased.JOHN 12:28…. FATHER, glorify thy name , then there came a “voice ” from heaven, saying , “I have glorified it, and wI’ll glorify it again’.
You might have to give this some more thought TC.Me:
NKJV) Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must [a]shortly take place. And He sent and SIGNIFIED IT BY HIS ANGEL to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.
It was the angel of the Lord that revealed the testimony God gave the Messiah.Me: Likewise it was the angel of the Lord that spoke the words in Mark 1:11 and John 12:28 as God’s agent since the Messiah was here on earth at the time. Otherwise this would contradict 6 Tim 6:16 and John 5:37. The latter came after the voice from heaven Mark 1:11.
Gene:
You: Jesus was telling those Pharisies that “they” haven’t heard his voice nor seen him.
Me: You got to be kidding. Just a few verses up before John 5:37 we have him talking with the same Jews. Did they have blinders and ear muffs on?
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true…36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the FATHER himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Me: The Father sent the Messiah to bear witness of the Messiah, not the Father himself, because no one has seen the Father nor heard his voice.
Gene:
You: Also read Dut 5:26 -31, there are many scriptures that God has and does speaks to people I have never hear of a scripture that say no one has not heard his voice before. Even Moses told the Israelites that they heard his voice speaking to them. And also said no other nation has, but they had.
Me: I guess you never read John 5:37 before. In Duet 5:26-31 this was not now the father speaking, but the word of God who is God and who became one with the seed of David.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word (me: 3056:spokesman) was with God, and the Word was God.
Me: one of the definitions of Logos (3056) is speaker.
Gen 16:9 The (Me: 4397 messenger, not angel) of the YHWH said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” …
13 Then she called the name of YHWH who spoke to her, You-Are-[e]the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here [f]seen Him who sees me?”
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4397.htmMe: So what does malak . H4397 and Logos. G3056 have in common? The Word or speaker is the messenger in the OT and NT.
TC….. Good Job at skirting around scriptures , while ignoring the host of other scriptures that say it was the LORD YAHWEH, WHO SPOKE TO THEM , according to a whole host of many scriptures. I am not going to waste my time lesting them all. What I have already listed which you ignored should be enough.
“The word was GOD” , IT WAS NOT SOME ONE ELSE. , the reason the word “was” instead of “is” is used there is because John was talking about a “past” event. God and his word are one and the same, Just as you and your words are the same thing, we will ultimately be judged by our words , why? because our words “are” us. IT’S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR WORD BEING US AND GOD’S WORDS BEING HIM. The best we can do is quote God’s words , like Jesus did and does, but none of that ever made himself a God or the word of God himself.
Trying to make Jesus into the words he was “quoting” from God via, the spirit of Father that was was “in” him , is a false teaching, creating a false “image” of Jesus being a God even causing people to worship him as a God. 2ths2.
That “man of sin” mentioned there, is the “false image” created by “fallen christanity “, about Jesus himself. All those who worship Jesus as “a God”, are commiting “idolatry”.
To him who has the ear, let him hear.
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Gene,
You: Good Job at skirting around scriptures , while ignoring the host of other scriptures that say it was the LORD YAHWEH, WHO SPOKE TO THEM , according to a whole host of many scriptures. I am not going to waste my time listing them all. What I have already listed which you ignored should be enough.
Me: Gene, I do not care if you quote another 1,000 scriptures like the ones you did. They do not prove that the now father spoke them as I have proved that he did not
John 10:16 ALL THINGS that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word (me: 3056:spokesman) was with God, and the Word was God (me: YHWH).
Gene:
You: “The word was GOD” , IT WAS NOT SOME ONE ELSE. , the reason the word “was” instead of “is” is used there is because John was talking about a “past” event. God and his word are one and the same, Just as you and your words are the same thing, we will ultimately be judged by our words ,
Me: No Gene, not really.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word (me: 3056:spokesman) was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD (me: YHWH).
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, WHICH IS, AND WHICH WAS, and WHICH IS TO COME, the Almighty.
Me: The reason the Messiah “was”, is because he was God, is God and will be God. .
Gene
You: why? because our words “are” us.
Me: Minds are of the spirit. Therefore you are admitting that we are basically spirits like God and his son who are spirits.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
You: IT’S NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR WORD BEING US AND GOD’S WORDS BEING HIM. The best we can do is quote God’s words , like Jesus did and does, but none of that ever made himself a God or the word of God himself.
Me: No Gene, our MINDS are basically us. Ours words come from our hearts in our minds.
Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his HEART bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his HEART bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Me: God has changed his mind and thus the words from his mind in the past. Does that mean that God has changed?
Exodus 32:9 And YHWH said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation…14 And YHWH (changed his mind) of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Me: No Gene, our words are not us and Gods words are not him. God is spirit. God’s a mind of the holy spirit. His words come from his mind.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the MIND of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Gene:
You: Trying to make Jesus into the words he was “quoting” from God via, the spirit of Father that was was “in” him , is a false teaching, creating a false “IMAGE” of Jesus being a God even causing people to worship him as a God. 2ths2. That “man of sin” mentioned there, is the “false image” created by “fallen christanity “, about Jesus himself. All those who worship Jesus as “a God”, are commiting “idolatry”.
Me: You are getting mixed up between the false prophet and the Messiah. There is a big different, you know, or do you?
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express IMAGE of his person,
New American Standard Bible
Col 1:6 For in Him all the FULLNESS of Deity dwells in bodily form,John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Me: The Messiah mind is the exact IMAGE of his Father’s mind, and therefore is God. We are not to make an image of God. But God can express (not make) an image of himself (the Word that became the Messiah). The exact image cannot do anything different from the source. The spirit mind of Christ is the exact IMAGE of his Father. His human mind is of the seed of David. It is one mind like Christians have a spirit mind and a human mind but being of the same mind. He makes us in his IMAGE. Thus the spirit mind of the Messiah that is the EXACT IMAGE of his father is in total sync with his father.
John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
To him who has the ear, let him hear.
TC…..John used the word was, When describing the beginning, is because it “was” a past event, he was talking about. That should not be hard for anyone to figure out. Why do you see fit to put your twist on that? Why not Go and read Genesis 1:1-5, and come back and tell us who was doing the talking there, is it not the LORD, OUR GOD SPEAKING?
Jesus was never himself , the word of God, he didn’t even exist before his birth on this earth. You also told us you don’t believe Jesus was God once as I recal, then tell us he “is and was God’s word”, there is no way a person’s words can be anything other then the expression of the one who spoke them. You and your words are one and the same person and those words belong to you and you only, the exact same it is with “Yahweh” our God.
When you “quote” someone else’s word you are not the one being identified as the person who spoke those word are you?, even though you quote them? The same with Jesus he spoke the Fathers words to us as he “clearly said”, saying “the words I am telling you are Not “MY WORDS”, but the words of him who sent me”. There it is, what part of what Jesus said do you refuse to believe TC ?
Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene
Gene:
You: John used the word was, When describing the beginning, is because it “was” a past event, he was talking about. That should not be hard for anyone to figure out. Why do you see fit to put your twist on that? Why not
Me: NO! You do not study nor meditate on the word of God but just write things off the top of your head. The Word of God, who is the express image of the mind of God EXISTED in the beginning and will exists at the end.
1510 eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee’)
Definition: I exist, I am
Usage: I am, exist.
HELPS Word-studies
1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. “to be”) – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey “straight-forward” being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).
1510 /eimí (“is, am”) – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive (“omnitemporal,” like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether the present tense also has “timeless” implications. For example, 1510 (eimí) is aptly used in Christ’s great “I am” (ego eimi . . . ) that also include His eternality (self-existent life) as our life, bread, light,” etc. See Jn 7:34, 8:58, etc.
Example: Jn 14:6: “I am (1510 /eimí) the way, the truth and the life.” Here 1510 (eimí) naturally accords with the fact Christ is eternal – maning “I am (was, will be).” The “I am formula (Gk egō eimi)” harks back to God’s only name, “Yahweh” (OT/3068, “the lord”) – meaning “He who always was, is, and will be.” Compare Jn 8:58 with Ex 3:14. See also Rev 4:8 and 2962 /kýrios (“Lord”).You: Go and read Genesis 1:1-5, and come back and tell us who was doing the talking there, is it not the LORD, OUR GOD SPEAKING?
John 1:1 In the beginning (me: EXITS (1510)) the Word, and the Word (me: 3056:spokesman) was with God, and the Word was God (me: YHWH).
New Living Translation
John 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.Me: one of the definitions of Logos (3056) is speaker.
Gen 16:9 The (Me: 4397 messenger, not angel) of the YHWH said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” …
13 Then she called the name of YHWH who spoke to her, You-Are-[e]the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here [f]seen Him who sees me?”
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/4397.htmMe: So what does malak . H4397 and Logos. G3056 have in common? The Word or speaker is the messenger in the OT and NT.
The same messenger in Gen 16:9-13 is the same spokesman that spoke creation into existence in Gen 1:15.
Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End,” says the [e]Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Gene:
You: Jesus was never himself , the word of God, he didn’t even exist before his birth on this earth. You also told us you don’t believe Jesus was God once as I recal, then tell us he “is and was God’s word”, there is no way a person’s words can be anything other then the expression of the one who spoke them. You and your words are one and the same person and those words belong to you and you only, the exact same it is with “Yahweh” our God.
When you “quote” someone else’s word you are not the one being identified as the person who spoke those word are you?, even though you quote them? The same with Jesus he spoke the Fathers words to us as he “clearly said”, saying “the words I am telling you are Not “MY WORDS”, but the words of him who sent me”. There it is, what part of what Jesus said do you refuse to believe TC ?Me: No Gene, our MINDS are basically us. Ours words come from our hearts in our minds.
Luke 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his HEART bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his HEART bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Me: God has changed his mind and thus the words from his mind in the past. Does that mean that God has changed?
Exodus 32:9 (NKJV) And YHWH said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff necked people: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation…14 And YHWH (me: changed his mind) of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Me: YHWH can and does change his words from his mind. His words are not the same as him or he would have changed.
Mal 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not…
Gene:
You: Jesus was never himself , the word of God, he didn’t even exist before his birth on this earth.
John 1:14 And the Word was (me: became one with) flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Me: The Word that existed before all of creation in John 1:1 became one with the seed of David. This is like a man and woman becoming one mind and spirit in marriage
TC…..The interesting thing is, Jesus sure did not think the words he was telling us was his words, now did he? Or why would he ever say, this, “the words I am telling you are “Not” My words, but the words of him that sent me. ” . TC you have never cleared that hurdle, so why go on with anything else yet, question is do you believe what Jesus said or “not”?
Trying to make it like God’s word some how made an exit from him and then became another person’s words, is pure garbage, God’s word never left him in the form of another person, no more then yours or anyone else’s words ever left them either. TC, You are really out there on this? IMO.
YOU heart is the seat of your thinking, it is your mind, any you words come from there, and they are and always will be you, not someone else , unless GOD speaks through you, then that is God speaking not you. Like Jesus said, when you are put on trial do not meditate what you will say, for in the very hour it will be given you what to say, it will not be you speaking, but the Holy spirit. I can look that up if you like and give you through “exact” quote.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Gene,
You: The interesting thing is, Jesus sure did not think the words he was telling us was his words, now did he? Or why would he ever say, this, “the words I am telling you are “Not” My words, but the words of him that sent me. ” You have never cleared that hurdle, so why go on with anything else yet, question is do you believe what Jesus said or “not”?
Me: I believe what Jesus said fully, not partially like you have just demonstrated.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: WHATSOEVER I SPEAK THEREFOR, EVEN AS THE FATHER SPEAKS TO ME, SO I SPEAK.
John 16:10 I go to My Father and you see Me no more
Me: This is when the Messiah was glorified in heaven
John 16:13 However, when He, the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for HE WILL NOT SPEAK OF HIS OWN, BUT WHATEVER HE HEARS HE WILL SPEAK.
Me: Notice the parallel between the CAPTILIZED words in John 12:50 and John 16:13.
2 Cor 3:16 (NASB) but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
The Lord is a life giving spirit (1 Cor 15:45). When one receives the words from holy spirit from the mind of Christ, the veil is lifted as he is able to see.John 16:14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 ALL THINGS THAT THE FATHER HAS IS MINE. Therefore I said that HE WILL TAKE OF MINE and declare it to you.
Me: The same spirit in Christ is the same spirit of his Father. The words of his father is the exact same words of spirit mind of Christ.
You: Trying to make it like God’s word some how made an exit from him and then became another person’s words, is pure garbage, God’s word never left him in the form of another person, no more then yours or anyone else’s words ever left them either. TC, You are really out there on this? IMO.
No Gene, I have just shown you what is contrary to what you are saying. I put no stock in what you consider truth and what you consider garbage.
Gene:
YOU heart is the seat of your thinking, it is your mind, any your words come from there, and they are and always will be you, not someone else , unless GOD speaks through you, then that is God speaking not you. Like Jesus said, when you are put on trial do not meditate what you will say, for in the very hour it will be given you what to say, it will not be you speaking, but the Holy spirit. I can look that up if you like and give you through “exact” quote.
Me: When one is on trail for being a child of God, you will need to know what to say prompto. But when you study the word, you meditate on it.
Psalm 119:97 Oh, how I love Your law!
It is my MEDITATION all the day.
98 You, through Your commandments, make me wiser than my enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers,
For Your testimonies are my MEDITATION.
100 I understand more than the [q]ancients,
Because I keep Your precepts.
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