- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi TC,
You showed us prophetic verses about the anointed one and claim they tell us he was anointed before birth?
Where is the order in all of this
?
Hi TC,
So when you do not find scripture saying exactly what you believe,
you can know you are still right?
Is that not lawlessness?
Hi Nick:
Put scriptures together to find a point?
Such patchwork quilting of verses has led to major errors.
2 Cor 13.1 is the way the bible recommends, and there are two or three witnesses to that verse.
Me:
You don’t have to put two verses together that say the same thing but relate to the overall discussion.
You haven’t show me three witnesses.
Hi Nick:
You
You showed us prophetic verses about the anointed one and claim they tell us he was anointed before birth?
Where is the order in all of this
?
Me:
I said what God foreordains, it is true in his mind as if it already has happened. So it already has happened.
Hi Nick,
So you were in error.
Jesus Christ is not his birth name.
Me:
Ok, so what? That is the name we know him by from when he was young and before his anointing in the Jordan River. By the way, the scripture doesn’t say explicitly that he was anointed, does it? But I can go along with he was.
Hi TC,
What mystical nonsense is this?
When God tells us what will happen in the future it has already happened?
Hi TC,
We know the Christ is spoken of prophetically.
But Jesus of Nazareth was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power.
Hi TC,
You have got to study scripture according to how scripture tells us to.
Otherwise new denominations spring up as has happened since the apostles died.
God is a God of order.
Hi Nick,
You wrote:
So when you do not find scripture saying exactly what you believe,
you can know you are still right?
Is that not lawlessness?
Me:
You connect the dots. I have not found anyone, especially you, finding three scriptures that say almost the same thing.
Anyway, we are making much ado about nothing. Anyway, I think I’ll abstain from posting here for a bit or maybe permanently. I don’t need this kind of cross examination. I probably will be happier learning by myself.
Hi TC,
Try
Dt 17.6
Dt 19.5
Mt 18.16
1 Tim 5.19
Heb 10.28
Have you ever wondered why Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all wrote accounts of the work of the Spirit in the anointed man, Jesus of Nazareth?
They are all in agreement and yet each adds another perspective as witnesses
God expects us to treat the precious words with respect.
There is lovely harmony to be found there.
Spiritual harmony.
Hi Nick,
Page 4
Nick wrote:
2 Cor 13.1 is the way the bible recommends, and there are two or three witnesses to that verse
Me:
Let me quote the scriptures you referred to.
Duet 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Duet 19:2 Thou shalt separate three cities for thee in the midst of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to possess it. 3Thou shalt prepare thee a way, and divide the coasts of thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee to inherit, into three parts, that every slayer may flee thither. 4 And this is the case of the slayer, which shall flee thither, that he may live: Whoso killeth his neighbour ignorantly, whom he hated not in time past; 5 As when a man goeth into the wood with his neighbour to hew wood, and his hand fetcheth a stroke with the axe to cut down the tree, and the head slippeth from the helve, and lighteth upon his neighbour, that he die; he shall flee unto one of those cities, and live:
Matt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established
1 Tim 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Me:
Regulating civil conduct with two or three witnesses does not transfer into establishing a point with scripture.
Col 1:9 pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
1 Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Me:
First of All, all of God’s words stand by themselves. God is the witness.
Psalm 119:98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me…100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
Me:
Secondly, we understand God’s word because we obey him. We obey God because we love him above all things and we love our neighbor as ourselves (Matt 22:37-40)
Psalm 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
Me: Third, we understand God’s word when we meditate on his word.
Nick wrote:
Put scriptures together to find a point?
Such patchwork quilting of verses has led to major errors.
Scripture:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:… 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken..
Me:
What you call patchwork is how God prescribes we learn scripture, not what you claim is God’s receipt.
Pov 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, 22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? 23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
Me:
Wisdom is learned by God’s word in combination with life’s experiences.
Job 12:7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: 8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Psalm 19:1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard
Me:
Nature is another testimony of God’s word.
Summary: we learned God’s word through nature and observation in combination with his word. We put it all together. It may take more than three verses to do so.
Hi TC,
Do you think there is much evidence that those who study scripture as you suggest all come to unity of faith?
Is the body of Christ divided into thousands of denominations that hate one another?
They all claim knowledge and many claim to have the Spirit.
Scripture is spiritual and often defies logic.
Good work testing what I recommended, even if one verse did not say what I thought, but it is disappointing that you could not find it helpful to use the secure principle of scriptural witnesses. Obviously the only true guide is the morning star, the Spirit of Christ rising in your heart, to become your teacher. But many spirits of deception offer bogus inspiration too. Blessings to you.
1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus (salvation) Christ (anointed) is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Psalm 8:3 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son (of God) of man, that thou visitest him?
Comment: Notice Christ is referred to as the son of man and not man. Why is that? For Psalm 8:3 to be in alignment with 1 John 4:2, I believe that the “the son of man” is really the son of God of man.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Me: Nick, You are right, you cannot rely and trust the denominations.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Me: But there will be a revival, maybe through forums such as this.
Hi TC,
Psalm 8.3 is not specific to Yahshua.
It applies to any son of Adam(man)though the salvation and glory spoken of is fulfilled in him.
Hi Nick,
You wrote:
Psalm 8.3 is not specific to Yahshua.
It applies to any son of Adam (man) though the salvation and glory spoken of is fulfilled in him.
Me:
Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his (singular) feet:
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7’Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 9 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings
Me:
Son of Man always refers to Yahshua in the NT and never the first Adam or man in general. Click the link below and see.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=son+of+man&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_3
So “son of man” in Heb 2:6 refers to Yashua. And Heb 2:6 is quoting Psalm 8:4. So son of man is Yahushua in Psalm 8:4
“Putting all things under his feet? Pertains to only Christ in the NT
In the OT “putting all things under his feet pertains to Yahweh.
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the (age: millennium) to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
1 Cor 15: 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Comment: After Christ has subdued all things, even death, then all things will revert to the father having all things under him, including the Messiah (vs 28) just like in the OT before the Messiah was created. And since the church is co-inheritors with Christ, all things will be under them together with Christ in the Millennium. The rest of the creation will be under God Almighty, the messiah, saints and the rest of mankind.
Now Heb 2:5 seems to contradict vs 7.
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Comment: It seems that Christ was made so much higher than the angels in Phil 2:10 but a little lower than angels in Heb 2:7. So we need to reconcile the two scriptures above.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_than_the_angels
Quote: The original phrase is drawn from Psalms 8:5, however the author of Hebrews follows the Greek of the Septuagint with the reading “lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:7) instead of the Hebrew “lower than God.”[1] The original Hebrew text is usually construed as “you made him [man] lower than God”, while the Septuagint has the meaning “you made him [man] lower than the angels”.[2]
Septuagint version:
Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/8-5.htm
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/8-5.htm
Notice the original Hebrew definition and not the Septuagint definition of H430 is God, and not angels in the link below.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/430.htm
If the word Elohim is singular plural intensive, it defines Yahweh and not angels. Elohim is the plural in number rendering of Elohim and can be defined as angels. But it has to be the plural intensive form because Christ was not made a little lower than angels in the flesh and so much higher than they as a spirit being.
Thus, the rendering of Phil 2:10 should be:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the God for (by) the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.This is future tense and pertains to after Christ had ascended into heaven and glorified. Thus, Christ is not God, but a little lower than and is the direct expression of.
Me: I hope that answered your one liner question.
Hi TC,
When you speak of Christ you speak of the anointing.
Jesus was made both Lord and Christ.
The Son of Adam became the Spiritual Son of God through his anointing at the Jordan
Col 1:12-20
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Comment: The inheritance includes everything (see below).
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Comment: “The kingdom of his dear Son” includes all creation (see below).
Psalms 89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself…
Isa 24:44 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Comment: God Almighty created all things, including the saints, by himself and for himself and thus owns all things, including you and me.
Isa 24:44 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer,…
Comment: God does not die, but someone had to die so Christ and us could be co-inheritors of all things created. Christ was his representative (Matt 1:23: god with us) and thus died in his stead. Thus, we become inheritors as if God had died. God still owns everything and everything is under his control, but he has given Christ and the saints ownership with him.
Young’s Literal Translation:
Col 1:14 in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins, 15 who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Romans 8:19 for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God; http://biblehub.com/romans/8-19.htm Editors note: Creature.–Creation, the whole world of nature, animate and inanimate. 20 for to vanity (fraility) was the creation made subject — not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it — in hope, 21 that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God; 22 for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now. 23 And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting — the redemption of our body;
Comment: Christ is the first born of the new creation. He is the creator of the new creation (Col 1: 17,20),
Col 1:16 For (G1722: because of) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created (G1223: on account of) him, and for him.
John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:…20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Comment: God Almighty created all things for his son and by extension for the saints, since the saints are co-inheritors with God and are one with him through Christ.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Comment: He is the creator of the new creation and he reconciles of all things (vs 20).
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Comment: He is the firstborn of all the new creation. Like his father was at the beginning of the present creation, he is at the beginning of the new creation.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Comment: Christ and Christians should strive to be filled with the holy spirit. As our spirit mind grows, we are capable of being filled with more of the holy spirit (Eph 4:23)
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of the deity dwells in bodily form.
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation
Comment: God’s spirit was in Christ, not Christ was God.
Isa 65:17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who (G3739) at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (G3739: who) he (God) hath appointed heir of all things, who (G 3739: not whom) he (God and not Christ) also made the (age).
So, using the correct grammer:
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son, who he hath appointed heir of all things, who he also made the age.
Me: Christ did not exist during the time of the prophets or God would have spoken to the fathers by the prophets and Christ. God Almighty made all things to be inherited by Christ in the age after he made the physical universe. Notice G 3739 should be translated “who” and not “whom”. So it was God (who) and not Christ (whom) made the age.
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/hebrews/1-2.htm
https://www.grammarly.com/blog/who-vs-whom-its-not-as-complicated-as-you-might-think/
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Me: He is the firstborn of the dead. He inherited God’s name. So he couldn’t have been God Almighty.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy (Christ’s) God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
John 10:35 If he called them gods (theos), unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Comment: Christ’s God is our God.
Hebrew 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak….7 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Thou madest him a little lower than God (Psalm 8:5); thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/hebrews-1-10
http://www.amatteroftruth.com/does-hebrews-1-10-prove-jesus-is-yehweh
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Psalm 102:24 I said, O my God,…25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Comment: Christ wasn’t created yet. He wasn’t assigned the position of Lord. So, besides being God Almighty, God is master or Lord in the OT.
God Almighty was called LORD throughout the Hebrews 1 prior to be called Lord in vs 10.
Matt 23:8 (NIV) “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi (4461: master or teacher),’ for you have one Teacher (1320: master or teacher), and you are all brothers…10 Nor are you to be called leaders (2519: a leader or master), for you have one leader (master), the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant.
John 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord (G2962) and my God!”
Comment: Lord here means master. It synthesizes all the meanings of master in Matt 23:8-11).
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made (G4160) that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord (G2962) and Christ.
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/acts/2-36.htm
http://biblehub.com/greek/2962.htm
Comment: The best definition for “made” (G5160) in Acts 2:36 would have been a continuous process until after Christ was glorified when it was finalize, or it would contradict John 20:28 above.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
