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bodhitharta said:
Quote 4`Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah; That is the literal translation
bd,
I am granting you that it says “one Jehovah.” But I deny that it means “one” in the sense you say for you give an incomplete translation of the verse. The verse literally says this,Jehovah ELOHIM OF US is one Jehovah
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/deu6.pdf
You can see then that Jehovah is a plural one. The plural “Elohim” with the plural pronoun “US” declares this unmistakeably. Sorry
Don't you think you should have translated the whole verse? But you didn't. WHY?thinker
Thinker,
This is the definite truth. The word “us” does in fact imply a plural being here in this passage. The fact that anti-trinitarians believe otherwise shows that they purely just cannot accept the fact that God exists in three persons.
TC27
Quote (thethinker @ July 03 2009,06:08) bodhitharta said: Quote 4`Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah; That is the literal translation
bd,
I am granting you that it says “one Jehovah.” But I deny that it means “one” in the sense you say for you give an incomplete translation of the verse. The verse literally says this,Jehovah ELOHIM OF US is one Jehovah
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/deu6.pdf
You can see then that Jehovah is a plural one. The plural “Elohim” with the plural pronoun “US” declares this unmistakeably. Sorry
Don't you think you should have translated the whole verse? But you didn't. WHY?thinker
Thank you for your partial concession. I didn't translate the verse it was “Young's literal translation”However you are mistaken pertaining to “us”
As ELOHIM OF US is simply saying “Our God” in other words the plural pronoun is relating to who's God it is i.e. “Our” God.
Also saying one Jehovah would place the Elohim in the singular not the plural.
Not to mention that we in english always refer to God as singular and Gods as plural so it is obvious in that scripture Elohim was taken to mean singular God form.
Read below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim
Elohim occupy the seventh rank of ten in the famous medieval Rabbinic scholar Maimonides' Jewish angelic hierarchy. Also Maimonides told that:
I must premise that every Hebrew knows that the term Elohim is a homonym, and denotes God, angels, judges, and the rulers of countries, …[9]
Bodhitharta said:
Quote However you are mistaken pertaining to “us” As ELOHIM OF US is simply saying “Our God” in other words the plural pronoun is relating to who's God it is i.e. “Our” God.
bd,
You got me on the word “us.” I clearly read it wrong. I was thinking of Genesis 3:22 when I read that.Quote Behold! The man has become as one of US to know good and evil. So it is only a “partial” concession I give you. It is Jehovah Elohim who said He is “one Jehovah” and we know that Elohim is plural. Therefore, your conclusion from Deuteronomy 6:4 is false nevertheless.
I will say thank you for pointing out my mistake.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 03 2009,07:13) Bodhitharta said: Quote However you are mistaken pertaining to “us” As ELOHIM OF US is simply saying “Our God” in other words the plural pronoun is relating to who's God it is i.e. “Our” God.
bd,
You got me on the word “us.” I clearly read it wrong. I was thinking of Genesis 3:22 when I read that.Quote Behold! The man has become as one of US to know good and evil. So it is only a “partial” concession I give you. It is Jehovah Elohim who said He is “one Jehovah” and we know that Elohim is plural. Therefore, your conclusion from Deuteronomy 6:4 is false nevertheless.
I will say thank you for pointing out my mistake.
thinker
Your welcome and I appreciate your reasonable and godly tone in this interaction.However, Elohim is not always plural in Jewish Grammer
read this
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/onegod3.html
In the overwhelming majority of the occurrences of ELOHIM, however, this term is not used in reference to certain creatures who, in a relative sense, may also bear this title together with the Supreme, but in an absolute sense in reference to Yahweh Himself alone, Who is the supreme and only true God. For example, “. . . Yahweh, He is the only Elohim. There is no one else aside from Him” (Deut.4:35). “So you know today, and you recall it to your heart that Yahweh, He is the only Elohim in the heavens above and on the earth beneath; there is no one else” (Deut.4:39).
There are not only those both in heaven and on earth who are termed “GODS” (or “ELOHIM”), but there are also those who are “GODS” (“there are many gods and many lords”; 1 Cor.8:5). “Nevertheless,” declares the apostle Paul, “for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is . . . .” (1 Cor.8:6).
Just as Paul identifies to us Who the one true God is, saying that He is “the Father, out of Whom all is,” Moses identified the one true God to Israel, declaring that He is the One Whose name is Yahweh. 1
Indeed, this is Israel’s great confession: “Hear, Israel! Yahweh [is] our Elohim; Yahweh [the only] One” (Deut.6:4).HEAR YE OH ISREAL: THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE LORD:
DEUT 6:4I SAY HEAR IS A NOTHER VERSE TO GO WITH THIS IN NEW TESTEMENT
AND JESUS ANSWERED HIM, TE FIRST COMMANDMENT IS, HEAR YE OH ISRAEL; THE LORD YOR GOD IS ONE LORD:
MARK 12:29THERE ARE OTHER ONNESS SCRITURES BT ILL NOT GO INTO THEM NOW I SEE IT AS THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD NOT 3 PERSONS
GOD BLESS
bodhitharta said:
Quote Your welcome and I appreciate your reasonable and godly tone in this interaction. However, Elohim is not always plural in Jewish Grammer
It is definitely plural in Genesis 1:26; 3:22 and 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8. In all these verses the word is followed by the plural pronouns “us” and “our.”.
Quote Let US make man in OUR image We are made in the image of God alone. So the “US” cannot include angels.
thinker
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 04 2009,00:04) HEAR YE OH ISREAL: THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE LORD:
DEUT 6:4I SAY HEAR IS A NOTHER VERSE TO GO WITH THIS IN NEW TESTEMENT
AND JESUS ANSWERED HIM, TE FIRST COMMANDMENT IS, HEAR YE OH ISRAEL; THE LORD YOR GOD IS ONE LORD:
MARK 12:29THERE ARE OTHER ONNESS SCRITURES BT ILL NOT GO INTO THEM NOW I SEE IT AS THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD NOT 3 PERSONS
GOD BLESS
The word “One” is the Hebrew “echad” which means a unified one. WJ dealt with this effectively on another thread yesterday.thinker
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 03 2009,08:04) HEAR YE OH ISREAL: THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE LORD:
DEUT 6:4I SAY HEAR IS A NOTHER VERSE TO GO WITH THIS IN NEW TESTEMENT
AND JESUS ANSWERED HIM, TE FIRST COMMANDMENT IS, HEAR YE OH ISRAEL; THE LORD YOR GOD IS ONE LORD:
MARK 12:29THERE ARE OTHER ONNESS SCRITURES BT ILL NOT GO INTO THEM NOW I SEE IT AS THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD NOT 3 PERSONS
GOD BLESS
Hi FollowerDo you realize that 'Capitalization” is taken as “Yelling”.
Please stop Yelling at us!
WJ
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 04 2009,00:04) HEAR YE OH ISREAL: THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE LORD:
DEUT 6:4I SAY HEAR IS A NOTHER VERSE TO GO WITH THIS IN NEW TESTEMENT
AND JESUS ANSWERED HIM, TE FIRST COMMANDMENT IS, HEAR YE OH ISRAEL; THE LORD YOR GOD IS ONE LORD:
MARK 12:29THERE ARE OTHER ONNESS SCRITURES BT ILL NOT GO INTO THEM NOW I SEE IT AS THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD NOT 3 PERSONS
GOD BLESS
And those verses are completely true. There is but one God. However, man in his limited understanding will never completely understand the nature of God. And although we know that there is only one God, it is a limitation of the person of God to say that he cannot manifest himself in more than one person. That does not mean that there are multiple Gods. It only means that God can exist in multiple persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)Quote (Country boy @ July 04 2009,11:28) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 04 2009,00:04) HEAR YE OH ISREAL: THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE LORD:
DEUT 6:4I SAY HEAR IS A NOTHER VERSE TO GO WITH THIS IN NEW TESTEMENT
AND JESUS ANSWERED HIM, TE FIRST COMMANDMENT IS, HEAR YE OH ISRAEL; THE LORD YOR GOD IS ONE LORD:
MARK 12:29THERE ARE OTHER ONNESS SCRITURES BT ILL NOT GO INTO THEM NOW I SEE IT AS THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD NOT 3 PERSONS
GOD BLESS
And those verses are completely true. There is but one God. However, man in his limited understanding will never completely understand the nature of God. And although we know that there is only one God, it is a limitation of the person of God to say that he cannot manifest himself in more than one person. That does not mean that there are multiple Gods. It only means that God can exist in multiple persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)
Hi CB,Did God teach us that through any one of his prophets? Of Course not!
Did Jesus teach us that himself? Of course not!
Then why would it become prevalent amongst men? Because it is the doctrine of men.
Multiple persons equal multiple wills. Jesus even said it was not his will but the will of the Father. Jesus has a will of his own but when we say The Will of God obviously we are talking about The One and Only True God in who we say is “Our Father in Heaven” then we say THY WILL be done.
Does God have multiple wills? Is God really double minded or for that matter triple minded?
bodhitharta siad:
Quote Hi CB, Did God teach us that through any one of his prophets? Of Course not!
Did Jesus teach us that himself? Of course not!
Then why would it become prevalent amongst men? Because it is the doctrine of men.
Multiple persons equal multiple wills. Jesus even said it was not his will but the will of the Father. Jesus has a will of his own but when we say The Will of God obviously we are talking about The One and Only True God in who we say is “Our Father in Heaven” then we say THY WILL be done.
Does God have multiple wills? Is God really double minded or for that matter triple minded?
CB,
I see you're new here. I give you heads up that bodhitharta is a Muslim who believes that Paul was a deceiver and was not a prophet of God.thinker
Country Boy said:
Quote And those verses are completely true. There is but one God. However, man in his limited understanding will never completely understand the nature of God. And although we know that there is only one God, it is a limitation of the person of God to say that he cannot manifest himself in more than one person. That does not mean that there are multiple Gods. It only means that God can exist in multiple persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) CB,
You are absolutely correct. Anti-trinitarians limit God. But God said , “I shall become what I shall become” (Exodus 3:14). He said this to Moses while manifested as a bush with a fire in its midst. If God can manifest Himself as a bush with a fire in its midst then He can become a man. See the Hebrew-English Interlinear link below. God said “I shall become what I shall become.”http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Modern day anti-trinitarians limit God as the ancient Gnostics did. Anti-trinitarianism is Gnosticism.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,12:08) bodhitharta siad: Quote Hi CB, Did God teach us that through any one of his prophets? Of Course not!
Did Jesus teach us that himself? Of course not!
Then why would it become prevalent amongst men? Because it is the doctrine of men.
Multiple persons equal multiple wills. Jesus even said it was not his will but the will of the Father. Jesus has a will of his own but when we say The Will of God obviously we are talking about The One and Only True God in who we say is “Our Father in Heaven” then we say THY WILL be done.
Does God have multiple wills? Is God really double minded or for that matter triple minded?
CB,
I see you're new here. I give you heads up that bodhitharta is a Muslim who believes that Paul was a deceiver and was not a prophet of God.thinker
Thinker,Did I say that Paul was a deceiver or did I show you the scriptures in which Paul does confess to using deception to further the Gospel.
Do you not think it is deceptive of you to tell someone else that I said something that I did not say but said the scriptures show it. So now I will make you confess it:
Did Paul said I became all things to all people? Yes or No?
Did Paul say that he used Guile? yes or no?
Did Paul say that if he lies for the glory of God why should he be called a sinner?Did Paul say this?
Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I thought the you said the Holy Spirit was dwelling in him but Paul says that nothing good dwells in him. Now, am I making this up?
Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,12:20) Country Boy said: Quote And those verses are completely true. There is but one God. However, man in his limited understanding will never completely understand the nature of God. And although we know that there is only one God, it is a limitation of the person of God to say that he cannot manifest himself in more than one person. That does not mean that there are multiple Gods. It only means that God can exist in multiple persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) CB,
You are absolutely correct. Anti-trinitarians limit God. But God said , “I shall become what I shall become” (Exodus 3:14). He said this to Moses while manifested as a bush with a fire in its midst. If God can manifest Himself as a bush with a fire in its midst then He can become a man. See the Hebrew-English Interlinear link below. God said “I shall become what I shall become.”http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Modern day anti-trinitarians limit God as the ancient Gnostics did. Anti-trinitarianism is Gnosticism.
thinker
So you think God was the bush?Thinker said:
Quote You are absolutely correct. Anti-trinitarians limit God. But God said , “I shall become what I shall become” (Exodus 3:14). He said this to Moses while manifested as a bush with a fire in its midst. If God can manifest Himself as a bush with a fire in its midst then He can become a man. See the Hebrew-English Interlinear link below. God said “I shall become what I shall become.” Thinker,
This is an absolutely AMAZING point!
TC27
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,15:44) Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,12:20) Country Boy said: Quote And those verses are completely true. There is but one God. However, man in his limited understanding will never completely understand the nature of God. And although we know that there is only one God, it is a limitation of the person of God to say that he cannot manifest himself in more than one person. That does not mean that there are multiple Gods. It only means that God can exist in multiple persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) CB,
You are absolutely correct. Anti-trinitarians limit God. But God said , “I shall become what I shall become” (Exodus 3:14). He said this to Moses while manifested as a bush with a fire in its midst. If God can manifest Himself as a bush with a fire in its midst then He can become a man. See the Hebrew-English Interlinear link below. God said “I shall become what I shall become.”http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Modern day anti-trinitarians limit God as the ancient Gnostics did. Anti-trinitarianism is Gnosticism.
thinker
So you think God was the bush?
bd,
The text says that God manifested Himself as a bush with a fire in its midst. Your question shows that you limit God. This is what Gnostics do. They limit God.thinker
Paladin said:
Quote “Echad” is a word meaning singularly one. Claim is constantly made that it is a “plural one.” I say prove it. THAT has not been done. WorshippingJesus replied:
“I highlighted the part I think you missed.
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
Yachid vs. Echad The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!” There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God (“yachid” or “bad”).
“Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, “echad” which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness”. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 “the two shall become one [echad] flesh” it is the same word for “one” that was used in Deut 6:4.
“This is most troubling for Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, IS NEVER USED IN REFERENCE TO GOD”. Source
It is you that has to prove it. You are in denial in my opinion!”
WJ
Thinker says: Paladin closed the debate between us. Go to the original thread in the “Debates” forum and see how he done it. Then see my reply in a second thread titled “Paladin closes debate on false grounds.” Paladin had me locked out from posting in the original thread. It is a good thing that Paladin weasled out of it because I was loading up with examples of what WJ has said above about “echad.”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,19:53) Paladin said: Quote “Echad” is a word meaning singularly one. Claim is constantly made that it is a “plural one.” I say prove it. THAT has not been done. WorshippingJesus replied:
“I highlighted the part I think you missed.
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
Yachid vs. Echad The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!” There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God (“yachid” or “bad”).
“Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, “echad” which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness”. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 “the two shall become one [echad] flesh” it is the same word for “one” that was used in Deut 6:4.
“This is most troubling for Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, IS NEVER USED IN REFERENCE TO GOD”. Source
It is you that has to prove it. You are in denial in my opinion!”
WJ
Thinker says: Paladin closed the debate between us. Go to the original thread in the “Debates” forum and see how he done it. Then see my reply in a second thread titled “Paladin closes debate on false grounds.” Paladin had me locked out from posting in the original thread. It is a good thing that Paladin weasled out of it because I was loading up with examples of what WJ has said above about “echad.”
thinker
If you want to know something Hebrew or Jewish why not get it from a direct source instead of a non-Jewish web site. Here is what the actual meanings of the words you dispute over are.Echad (“One”):
Echad means unity as it expresses itself in the totality of being.Yachid (“The Single One”):
But what do actual Jews believe about these words?
In general, the level of Echad is the secret of God's Essential Name Havayah–the Name that reveals (to Himself) His very Essence–before the beginning of Creation.
“Here O' Israel Havayah is our God Havayah is One.” Our sages teach us that “One” refers to God's true and absolute unity within His Creation. Here, the level of Echad represents the ultimate origin of this unity before Creation.
http://www.inner.org/worlds/echad.htm
Yachid is thus understood to be the absolute omnipotence of God, the fact that God Himself is able to do all. Just as He is able to do so is He, equally, able not to do.
Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,19:31) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,15:44) Quote (thethinker @ July 04 2009,12:20) Country Boy said: Quote And those verses are completely true. There is but one God. However, man in his limited understanding will never completely understand the nature of God. And although we know that there is only one God, it is a limitation of the person of God to say that he cannot manifest himself in more than one person. That does not mean that there are multiple Gods. It only means that God can exist in multiple persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) CB,
You are absolutely correct. Anti-trinitarians limit God. But God said , “I shall become what I shall become” (Exodus 3:14). He said this to Moses while manifested as a bush with a fire in its midst. If God can manifest Himself as a bush with a fire in its midst then He can become a man. See the Hebrew-English Interlinear link below. God said “I shall become what I shall become.”http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Modern day anti-trinitarians limit God as the ancient Gnostics did. Anti-trinitarianism is Gnosticism.
thinker
So you think God was the bush?
bd,
The text says that God manifested Himself as a bush with a fire in its midst. Your question shows that you limit God. This is what Gnostics do. They limit God.thinker
HiTT,
Was God a bush? hmmm.
So what of the angel in the bush that spoke?
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