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All Atheists out there, here he here he! I challenge you 'scientific Atheists' to a challenge! I say to you that you read I don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist and the first eight chapters of the account of John. If you decline, I declare you stubborn and unwilling to believe Christianity because of your will. You either accept or you decline Atheists, let us see who is carrying the blind faith, for it is certainly not me! I MAKE THIS AN OFFICIAL CHALLENGE! I ALSO WANT CHRISTIANS TO TAKE THE CHALLENGE AS WELL IF YOU WANT TO!
This is coming from me
Malachi, or the Theologian-and-Apologist, if you charge me with a blind faith and do not take the quiz, it is obvious what is the truth.I'm making a challenge, I challenge all non-believers to go and buy a book of I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist and read the book, and read John chp 1-8. If you decline I understand, you disbelieve not because of the evidence, but because of the will.
A book called I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FAITH TO BE AN ATHEIST by Norman Guisler and Frank Turek, and a BIBLE BOOK, THE BOOK OF JOHN. Smoking disgusts me.
Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 14 2008,13:37) A book called I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FAITH TO BE AN ATHEIST by Norman Guisler and Frank Turek, and a BIBLE BOOK, THE BOOK OF JOHN. Smoking disgusts me.
As I am the only atheist posting here I will reply to your 'challenge'. Of course I cannot speak for the thousands of atheists who lurk.
The last book I read on the insistence of a christian was Martin Lubenow's Bones of Contention. The first bit was genuinely interesting as he got into a heated polemic about the international politics of human fossil remains, a topic he is clearly well versed in. The rest was tedious strawmen of evolution and bizarre evangelical outbursts. The few reviews I have read of the book you are advocating indicate it will be a similar experience and so I decline your 'challenge' on that count. I believe I am reasonably well versed in evolutionary theory, at least at a popular level, and I am not sure I have the patience for a big long rant about the anthropic principle, which has nothing to do with christianity as far as I can see.Regarding the even more polemical, anonymous non-eyewitness “gospel of John” written 60-70 years after the death of its alleged subject, are these the highlights you would recommend?:
3:18 Those who do not believe in Jesus is condemned.
3:36 The wrath of god is on all unbelievers.
5:14 Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.”
6:42 The people of Nazareth, who knew Jesus well, did not believe in him.
6:53 Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life.
7:5 Jesus' family didn't believe in him.
And piteously of all is 3:16 in which, as an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), god had his own son tortured and killed.
Stuart
Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 13 2008,20:30) I'm making a challenge, I challenge all non-believers to go and buy a book of I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist and read the book, and read John chp 1-8. If you decline I understand, you disbelieve not because of the evidence, but because of the will.
Why should we buy a book just to respond to someone on an Internet forum?Quote (Stu @ July 14 2008,22:00) Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 14 2008,13:37) A book called I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FAITH TO BE AN ATHEIST by Norman Guisler and Frank Turek, and a BIBLE BOOK, THE BOOK OF JOHN. Smoking disgusts me.
As I am the only atheist posting here I will reply to your 'challenge'. Of course I cannot speak for the thousands of atheists who lurk.
The last book I read on the insistence of a christian was Martin Lubenow's Bones of Contention. The first bit was genuinely interesting as he got into a heated polemic about the international politics of human fossil remains, a topic he is clearly well versed in. The rest was tedious strawmen of evolution and bizarre evangelical outbursts. The few reviews I have read of the book you are advocating indicate it will be a similar experience and so I decline your 'challenge' on that count. I believe I am reasonably well versed in evolutionary theory, at least at a popular level, and I am not sure I have the patience for a big long rant about the anthropic principle, which has nothing to do with christianity as far as I can see.Regarding the even more polemical, anonymous non-eyewitness “gospel of John” written 60-70 years after the death of its alleged subject, are these the highlights you would recommend?:
3:18 Those who do not believe in Jesus is condemned.
3:36 The wrath of god is on all unbelievers.
5:14 Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.”
6:42 The people of Nazareth, who knew Jesus well, did not believe in him.
6:53 Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life.
7:5 Jesus' family didn't believe in him.
And piteously of all is 3:16 in which, as an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), god had his own son tortured and killed.
Stuart
Your theology is not stable. Jesus was God in human form, and I encourage you look at the evidence please. 3:18 – Yes, because if you were not condemned it would be unjust, I mean you have a choice, accept God or decline him, God doesn't want forced love. 3:36 – Same as 3:18. 5:14- How did you get that conclusion, Jesus was telling him to not sin, and God's rules are for our protection.
6:42- The pharisee were just saying Jesus' earthly parents were Mary and Joseph, they didn't realize who Jesus truly was.6:53- This is a symbolic message for accepting Jesus as your personal savior and Lord.
7:5- My brother doesn't always believe in me. Clearly, they just doubted him, the disciples doubted him until they saw the resurrected Jesus.
Before you take verses to try and destroy Christianity, try interpreting them well next time, please.
To Kejohn-
I do not think you have to, but I'm just saying, aren't you willing to look at evidence? You have every right to decline or accept my offer. I just want what's best for people, to look at evidence and make a choice based of the evidence.
Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 15 2008,09:14) 7:5- My brother doesn't always believe in me. Clearly, they just doubted him, the disciples doubted him until they saw the resurrected Jesus.
Hi T and A,These people lived with Jesus. Some grew up with Him.
Some traveled with Him and watched Him work miracles and heal people. They preached with Him, about Him and followed Him.Yet they did not believe in Him and doubted Him until He came back from the death and confronted them in person.
Why were these few the only ones in two thousand years given this undisputable proof? Why is everyone else forced to believe by faith alone?
There would have been no unbelievers if Jesus had merely stayed here on earth after HIs resurrection would there?
Tim
Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 14 2008,16:14) To Kejohn- I do not think you have to, but I'm just saying, aren't you willing to look at evidence? You have every right to decline or accept my offer. I just want what's best for people, to look at evidence and make a choice based of the evidence.
Sorry if I don't accept that the bible and a book written about the bible to be evidence.aMEN..Tim….believe it just because its writen, can be as demanding as those that need full proof for faith.
Let me see…….perhaps we need both!!!! or a clean “wipe” on the percepton of whats wise and sane
I love my friends
charity
Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 15 2008,09:14) Your theology is not stable. Jesus was God in human form, and I encourage you look at the evidence please.
As I am openly antagonistic towards to absurdity of claiming that theology is a respectable academic discipline, I should think you are being very kind to let me off so subtly.Before we get to the Jesus was god in human form assertion, maybe we should reexamine the evidence for the existence of Jesus. You will find the arguments laid out in a thread here somewhere, quite eloquently by kejonn especially. The gospels are third-rate as historical evidence goes. Where do you look next? Tacitus? Josephus? Hardly convincing stuff, especially in an age of allegorical writing and christian editing while the Roman diarists annotated every sneeze the empire endured, but not any walking on water or feeding 5000 with a fish and a loaf. Where does it say there ever existed this Jesus?
Stuart
Okay, I'm not suggesting it for that, I just want you to get a firm grasp on the Gospel at first. (The book I reccomended does prove the Gospels though.)
Anyways Tim, That would basically be God being unjust, because you cannot have forced love, and plus Jesus appeared to around 500 people, way to many people to be a hullucination.
Let us get into some Roman history. . .
Romans when killing a new king would parade the dead king and the rewards they won. The Romans HATED Christianity, and it was a Sanhedrin tomb Jesus was buried in, the Sanhedrin, also HATED Christianity, they would have given the body to the Romans and ended Christianity once and for all.
Oh, and if you tell me Jesus never existed, then you basically are saying the Romans never existed, because there are 140(?) Secular writings mentioning a breif over-view of Jesus and a similiar story line to the New Testament Gospel.
I advice you to read the book I reccomended, it covers Evolution, God, Jesus, and everywhere in between.
(Yeah, my spelling is terrible tonight.)
Before you make any more comments I want you to please accept the challenge and start reading.
Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 14 2008,21:53) Okay, I'm not suggesting it for that, I just want you to get a firm grasp on the Gospel at first. (The book I reccomended does prove the Gospels though.) Only to those who don't have any answers or have a pre-disposition towards the bible.
Quote Anyways Tim, That would basically be God being unjust, because you cannot have forced love, and plus Jesus appeared to around 500 people, way to many people to be a hullucination. And the evidence of this is? One line in the bible. I'm convinced.
Quote Let us get into some Roman history. . . Romans when killing a new king would parade the dead king and the rewards they won. The Romans HATED Christianity, and it was a Sanhedrin tomb Jesus was buried in, the Sanhedrin, also HATED Christianity, they would have given the body to the Romans and ended Christianity once and for all.
Evidence?!? What is your source for such “evidence”?
Quote Oh, and if you tell me Jesus never existed, then you basically are saying the Romans never existed, because there are 140(?) Secular writings mentioning a breif over-view of Jesus and a similiar story line to the New Testament Gospel. Again, where is your “evidence”?
Quote I advice you to read the book I reccomended, it covers Evolution, God, Jesus, and everywhere in between. (Yeah, my spelling is terrible tonight.)
It is the least of your problems.
Quote Before you make any more comments I want you to please accept the challenge and start reading.
Why? Is there anything in that book that had not already been beaten to death? Just bring out the major points and we will discuss them, no need to buy some apologetic book.Quote (TimothyVI @ July 15 2008,11:00) Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 15 2008,09:14) 7:5- My brother doesn't always believe in me. Clearly, they just doubted him, the disciples doubted him until they saw the resurrected Jesus.
Hi T and A,These people lived with Jesus. Some grew up with Him.
Some traveled with Him and watched Him work miracles and heal people. They preached with Him, about Him and followed Him.Yet they did not believe in Him and doubted Him until He came back from the death and confronted them in person.
Why were these few the only ones in two thousand years given this undisputable proof? Why is everyone else forced to believe by faith alone?
There would have been no unbelievers if Jesus had merely stayed here on earth after HIs resurrection would there?
Tim
TimI am quite sure Yeshua revealed himself to quite a few before he ascended.
1 Cor 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of **above five hundred brethren at once**; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
There were probably more than spoken of, after all they turned the then known world upside down.
Blessings WJ
Theologian and Apologist
I hope that you have prepared for the counter-challenge that asks what books you have read that advocate the position you reject. Richard Dawkins's 'The Blind Watchmaker'? Sam Harris's “End of Faith”? Anything by Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, Bertrand Russell, AC Grayling or Lucretius? How about Jonathan Miller's History of Disbelief on the BBC or YouTube?
Of course as kejonn and others have asked, what difference does opinion make to the truth of a proposition?
Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2008,11:19) Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 14 2008,16:14) To Kejohn- I do not think you have to, but I'm just saying, aren't you willing to look at evidence? You have every right to decline or accept my offer. I just want what's best for people, to look at evidence and make a choice based of the evidence.
Sorry if I don't accept that the bible and a book written about the bible to be evidence.
Even a book you haven't read? Wow, blind faith in action.
Quote (t8 @ July 15 2008,22:08) Quote (kejonn @ July 15 2008,11:19) Quote (Theologian-and-Apologist @ July 14 2008,16:14) To Kejohn- I do not think you have to, but I'm just saying, aren't you willing to look at evidence? You have every right to decline or accept my offer. I just want what's best for people, to look at evidence and make a choice based of the evidence.
Sorry if I don't accept that the bible and a book written about the bible to be evidence.
Even a book you haven't read? Wow, blind faith in action.
How is a book evidence for anything except that it was written and published? The same goes for the Judeo-christian book of magic spells and threats. The bible(s) on your shelf are evidence of human authorship and publication, nothing more.Stuart
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