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Quote (Stu @ Jan. 10 2008,13:41) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,13:12) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 10 2008,12:57) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,12:35) Quote (Stu @ Jan. 10 2008,11:05) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,06:43) God is not a despot like Zeus.
Hi Son of LightJust a very low-grade question here. Notwithstanding the fact that you have to bend the OT out of shape completely or ignore it altogether to get “god is not a despot” (surely he is portrayed as an unpredictable dictator quick to smite!) but you compare him directly to Zeus. Am I misunderstanding or are you comparing a god you think exists with a god you think doesn't? If so, I am keen to find out why you are a Zeus-atheist but not a YHWH / Allah / Jehova / the LORD / whatever the name(s) of your god-atheist.
Stuart
I am not a zeus athiest. Tow pretty much has it right. The gods of the nations are representive of fallen angels.
This is fantastic! if I invent a god, will you believe it to be a fallen angel too?Stuart
If your movement because successful then an entity might come along to step into that role and help move things along.
So you're saying my new religion could advertise for a deity, and if sufficiently attractive, one of the lesser 'gods' might step in as Chairman? What do you have to pay to get Most High to head up your fantasy corporation?Stuart
You have to pay in light. Giving yours up. Living in darkness as you cater to a religion.I know that technically by description I also have a “religion”.
But, I believe that the only religion that is pure and good is charity, love and a pursuit of goodness. I think for the most part you also desire to participate in those religious rituals with me.
The difference is you create good, meaning and purpose while I believe they exist independent of men yet men can align themselves to them.
Good and evil do not exist independent of men; this came about as a result, when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 10 2008,14:04) Good and evil do not exist independent of men; this came about as a result, when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
You don't think God was good and Satan was evil prior to adam and eve?How could they eat of a fruit of knowledge of something that did not exist?
besides if you read my post you will see that I am making a comparison:
Stu believes in Good but that it is a creation of man through evolutionary behaviors.
I believe in Good as something beyond man and not just a biological mechinism to ensure survival of species.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,20:26) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 10 2008,04:40) SOL, What do you think of these verses?
Mat 22:44 “'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet'?
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
PhariseeYHVH promised a war messiah to put the gentile nations under the regency of Israel.
Essene
The Most High promised a peacefule messiah would enlightment the sons of light (known from the foundation of the world) that they can overcome the principalities of the world. God then removes his spirit from the fallen “gods” so that the angels spiral into matter and die like mere men as the sons of light rise above them in spirit, thus having their enemies put beneath their feet.
Quite an evasive answer but you gave me enough to “catch” you. If you agree that this is a reference to Psalm 110, then what of this verse?Psa 110:6 He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth.
Since you like Septuagint
Psa 110:6 (109:6) He shall judge among the nations, he shall fill up the number of corpses, he shall crush the heads of many on the earth.
Now SOL you can't take the good only. You have to take the whole in context. Are you still so certain that your Jesus is not a man of war in disguise?
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,21:13) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 10 2008,14:04) Good and evil do not exist independent of men; this came about as a result, when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
You don't think God was good and Satan was evil prior to adam and eve?
So was G-d talking to “satan” here?Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever–“
Seems G-d and “satan” were pretty good pals back then.
Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 10 2008,14:24) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,20:26) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 10 2008,04:40) SOL, What do you think of these verses?
Mat 22:44 “'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet'?
Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'Heb 1:13 And to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?
PhariseeYHVH promised a war messiah to put the gentile nations under the regency of Israel.
Essene
The Most High promised a peacefule messiah would enlightment the sons of light (known from the foundation of the world) that they can overcome the principalities of the world. God then removes his spirit from the fallen “gods” so that the angels spiral into matter and die like mere men as the sons of light rise above them in spirit, thus having their enemies put beneath their feet.
Quite an evasive answer but you gave me enough to “catch” you. If you agree that this is a reference to Psalm 110, then what of this verse?Psa 110:6 He will execute judgment among the nations, filling them with corpses; he will shatter chiefs over the wide earth.
Since you like Septuagint
Psa 110:6 (109:6) He shall judge among the nations, he shall fill up the number of corpses, he shall crush the heads of many on the earth.
Now SOL you can't take the good only. You have to take the whole in context. Are you still so certain that your Jesus is not a man of war in disguise?
More YHVH promises.Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 10 2008,14:29) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,21:13) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 10 2008,14:04) Good and evil do not exist independent of men; this came about as a result, when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
You don't think God was good and Satan was evil prior to adam and eve?
So was G-d talking to “satan” here?Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever–“
Seems G-d and “satan” were pretty good pals back then.
Mostly I was trying to use an orthodox frame of reference to respond to acertainchap in order to remind him that traditionally Christians do indeed believe good and evil existed prior to Adam and Eve's fall.However, I think the ones speaking are the Jehovah gods. The Most High is not present at all except when he sent his spirit into the serpent to share wisdom with the poor captives Adam and Eve, unfortunately they werent able to escape from the clutches of the Jehovah Gods by eating of the tree of life before they banished them into the earth.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,14:36) Quote (Towshab @ Jan. 10 2008,14:29) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 09 2008,21:13) Quote (acertainchap @ Jan. 10 2008,14:04) Good and evil do not exist independent of men; this came about as a result, when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
You don't think God was good and Satan was evil prior to adam and eve?
So was G-d talking to “satan” here?Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever–“
Seems G-d and “satan” were pretty good pals back then.
Mostly I was trying to use an orthodox frame of reference to respond to acertainchap in order to remind him that traditionally Christians do indeed believe good and evil existed prior to Adam and Eve's fall.However, I think the ones speaking are the Jehovah gods. The Most High is not present at all except when he sent his spirit into the serpent to share wisdom with the poor captives Adam and Eve, unfortunately they werent able to escape from the clutches of the Jehovah Gods by eating of the tree of life before they banished them into the earth.
Wait again!The bad angel (god) punished Adam and Eve for doing as the bad angel's “Most High God” said. I assume that the Most High God is just that~ Most High?
So for doing GOOD (by taking of the tree as the Most High said) they were punished.
Doesn't that make Good~BAD~?! And Bad ~GOOD~?!
If they would not have done as the Most High said (good) then they would NOT have been punished as they were.
So if they would have listened to the bad they would not have been punished! But because the chose to listen to the Most High (good) they were.
This sends the wrong message!
For doing good you get punished so that's BAD. And if you do Bad then you don't get punished so that's Good!
Therefore:
Good is Bad ~and~ Bad is Good!
As the bible reads then if God is good then Adam and Eve were punished for doing BAD.
But if we have it the other way (serpent being good) then Adam and Eve were punished for doing GOOD.
Would you punish OR even allow your child to be punished for doing GOOD?
They were punished for doing the WRONG thing not the GOOD. And if what they did WAS Good then why did the “MOST HIGH” allow them to be punished?
Just who is the MOST High in this story anyway?
SOL if you are correct then the bad rules the good, right?
Well, what if we are creations of the elohim (gods) as Geneis says literally though they make it singular (God). And all souls come from the Most High then we are trapped souls that have been trapped in flesh and tainted with evil.
If we are trapped spirits underneath principalities and powers and the Most High wants to set us free then he would still be Good.
The question is really:
Why didn't the Most High reach down and save us immeaditely through some divine and quick method.
But see that question applies no matter which model you use.
My personal answer is that he wants good sons and daughters to join him. He doesn't want to replace bad sons with a new batch of bad sons. Therefore we must come to the light.
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,16:25) Well, what if we are creations of the elohim (gods) as Geneis says literally though they make it singular (God). And all souls come from the Most High then we are trapped souls that have been trapped in flesh and tainted with evil. If we are trapped spirits underneath principalities and powers and the Most High wants to set us free then he would still be Good.
The question is really:
Why didn't the Most High reach down and save us immeaditely through some divine and quick method.
But see that question applies no matter which model you use.
My personal answer is that he wants good sons and daughters to join him. He doesn't want to replace bad sons with a new batch of bad sons. Therefore we must come to the light.
Then we had to have fallen of our own free will. Tempted to become flesh. Isn't that what Enoch says?The gods created flesh and we entered that flesh where we are now trapped until the flesh dies.
Are we part of the 1/3 angels who have fallen and now wish to repent?
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 10 2008,16:35) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,16:25) Well, what if we are creations of the elohim (gods) as Geneis says literally though they make it singular (God). And all souls come from the Most High then we are trapped souls that have been trapped in flesh and tainted with evil. If we are trapped spirits underneath principalities and powers and the Most High wants to set us free then he would still be Good.
The question is really:
Why didn't the Most High reach down and save us immeaditely through some divine and quick method.
But see that question applies no matter which model you use.
My personal answer is that he wants good sons and daughters to join him. He doesn't want to replace bad sons with a new batch of bad sons. Therefore we must come to the light.
Then we had to have fallen of our own free will. Tempted to become flesh. Isn't that what Enoch says?The gods created flesh and we entered that flesh where we are now trapped until the flesh dies.
Are we part of the 1/3 angels who have fallen and now wish to repent?
Good questions, but I don't know. I continue searching.I believe the elohim formed the matter and breathed life into us. They gave us spirit. But see the source of all spirit comes from the Most High. So inside us is a small spark of that Light that wants to return to its true source.
My main focus at this time. Is knowing what is the Light and walking towards it.
True Love, True Good and True Light. Not an imposter!
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,16:41) Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 10 2008,16:35) Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 10 2008,16:25) Well, what if we are creations of the elohim (gods) as Geneis says literally though they make it singular (God). And all souls come from the Most High then we are trapped souls that have been trapped in flesh and tainted with evil. If we are trapped spirits underneath principalities and powers and the Most High wants to set us free then he would still be Good.
The question is really:
Why didn't the Most High reach down and save us immeaditely through some divine and quick method.
But see that question applies no matter which model you use.
My personal answer is that he wants good sons and daughters to join him. He doesn't want to replace bad sons with a new batch of bad sons. Therefore we must come to the light.
Then we had to have fallen of our own free will. Tempted to become flesh. Isn't that what Enoch says?The gods created flesh and we entered that flesh where we are now trapped until the flesh dies.
Are we part of the 1/3 angels who have fallen and now wish to repent?
Good questions, but I don't know. I continue searching.I believe the elohim formed the matter and breathed life into us. They gave us spirit. But see the source of all spirit comes from the Most High. So inside us is a small spark of that Light that wants to return to its true source.
My main focus at this time. Is knowing what is the Light and walking towards it.
True Love, True Good and True Light. Not an imposter!
True Love, True Good and True Light.? JESUS! Do we need to know anything else? When we ask why is that faith? His ways are NOT our ways. So Jesus came to show us HIS ways which are at war with our flesh. Because His ways are SPIRIT.Seems that we want to do things FIRST in the Flesh~then Spirit~ when it should be the other way around for those who are born again.
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 11 2008,02:14) Seems that we want to do things FIRST in the Flesh~then Spirit~ when it should be the other way around for those who are born again.
I agree.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,08:37) Hi ,
Why is it that trinitarians do not seem keen to defend the bible as truth?
Is that how Son of Light's sytem works? Maybe I am ignorant here but it doesn't read like monotheism. Is he henotheistic? It's not polytheism and quite a way from pantheism. Do others share these views here?Sorry to need a box to put him in, but I've not seen this before.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 11 2008,09:11) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2008,08:37) Hi ,
Why is it that trinitarians do not seem keen to defend the bible as truth?
Is that how Son of Light's sytem works? Maybe I am ignorant here but it doesn't read like monotheism. Is he henotheistic? It's not polytheism and quite a way from pantheism. Do others share these views here?Sorry to need a box to put him in, but I've not seen this before.
Stuart
At one time there was only One. The Source of All. The Most High. Father/Mother.From the first spirit came others. Gods/Angels/Elohim/All the same thing, some good some bad.
So there is Only ONE TRUE GOD, but there are many gods who are sons of the Most High. The montheism myth tries to pretend that angels are not gods. it is just semantics. Hey to make people feel better I will say angel to keep the peace.
So Monotheism is true and so is henotheism and Polytheism. We have created inaccurate descriptions over centuries of apologetics and forced God and his sons into neat little labeled boxes.
These are sons of the most high and they are spirit too. These spirits had emenations themselves and so on. eventually these spirits drifted far away from the source of all and rebelled. They formed matter and trapped their own breath/spirit emenations of spirit into flesh.
We are spirits trapped in matter. Sons of angels via the flesh they molded and through the spirit they breathed into us. But this spirit is a distant emanation of the Most High. A divine spark is inside of us. We can return to the source of all.
This is essene and gnostic understanding of the faith. Many scriptures exist explaining this.
The apocryphon of John is one for example.
Orthodox christianity is Pauline and Greek with Roman mystery religion thrown in.
Once you realize that Paul and the Catholics (proto-catholics…i.e. church fathers) created a different scism movement combining Pharisee judaism and greco/roman mystery religions. THEN, you can see that the other early christianities that were supressed are the ones that followed Jesus and his teaching of THE WAY. Essene/ebionite/gnostic
Quote (Son of Light @ Jan. 11 2008,09:32) At one time there was only One. The Source of All. The Most High. Father/Mother.
Who ever said that God was a Mother?I'll give you Scripture. There are many such verses.
Ephesians 1: 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
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