The arian dissenters

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 20 2010,15:45)

Hi TT, Are you really hoping your weak logic will stand in the end against the powerful word of God? wake up.

Nick,

t8 said that the words worship and honor are the same word. t8 is correct and he gave WJ a wide opening when he admitted it.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

ED J said to t8:

Quote

Isn't it funny how they keep arguing over the same garbage    over and over and over again and again and again.

to All,

It's funny how ED J keeps giving his numbers garbage over and over and over again when no one gives a hoot.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2010,09:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 18 2010,22:10) Hey Wj, I am consistent with the word worship, and I know that while giving praise, honor and glory are a part of worship, they are not in and of themselves necessarily worship. Mike Are you consistent? Then why don't you worship Jesus like Jesus said to worship the Father in John 4:24? They are the same word you know? Blessings WJ Wj, is this a trick question? Because he is not God Almighty, that's why. What are the same word? Peace and love, mike

Mike,

This thread is all about Revelation 5:13. It says that the Lamb is worthy to receive “power” with the Father. If this is not “almighty” power and what is it?

And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

     “ Blessing and honor and glory and power
     Be to Him who sits on the throne,
     And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

It does not say that the  Lamb receives less power does it?

Revelation 5:13 testifies that both the Lamb and the Father receive [almighty] power!

Think man think!

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 20 2010,03:26)

Hi T8, Isn't it funny how they keep arguing over the same garbage    over and over and over again and again and again.

Ed

It doesn't get any circular than this!

How many times have we seen you post the “Exact same numbers” and making the same points over and over again on this board!  

You speak to t8 like he or you do not particpate in the arguments!

Do you see your bias to the truth?

I think it is funny how you guys avoid the points we make like show me how the word “Worship” in scripture has a different meaning for the Father and Jesus.

Or show us one NT example of any other recieving this worship!

Instead of engaging just make ridiculous claims and patronize!

WEAK!!!

Blessings WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,21:09)

It does not say that the  Lamb receives less power does it? Revelation 5:13 testifies that both the Lamb and the Father receive [almighty] power! Think man think!

Hey Thinker,

You ignored my post in your testator topic.  So I'll throw it in your face again.

Quote

Hi tt, Paul was saying Jesus remembered us in his will, leaving us an inheritance.  Anyone in Jerusalem who left a will was a testator.  Don't make more out of the word than what is there. And Israel had many “saviors”.  King Saul “saved” Israel from the Philistines.  The angels God sent that wiped out 185,000 troops for Hezekiah (?) was a savior.  And if you turn one person to God in your life, you too are a savior. And I'm almost positive somewhere it says King David was a shepard of Israel. So once more, it is GOD'S new covenant and Jesus was the sacrificial lamb to cement the contract.  Jesus never said I am making a new covenant with Israel.  The new covenant with “spiritual Israel” (God's new chosen people since the Jews disowned Jesus) is between God and his chosen.  Jesus was the sacrifice and is now the mediator between the chosen and God.  And the Holy Spirit by the way is also a mediator between us and God, but that doesn't make the Holy Spirit Jesus, just because there are more than one mediator. That's how I understand it, anyway. Try not to get too hung up on a single word.  You act like if someone called God “cool”, then anyone else called cool is God. Peace and love, Mike

If someone has BLANK, it must be God's BLANK.

Now insert any word for the word “blank” in the above sentence, and you have The Thinker's logic.

Try some words: power, honor, glory, life , arms, truck….

Come on man – YOU think.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,03:20)

I think it is funny how you guys avoid the points we make like show me how the word “Worship” in scripture has a different meaning for the Father and Jesus.

Hey Keith,

I think the same thing about you, tt and ca.

Every time I show you what you ask, you act like you skipped right over my post and start responding to other ones.

So, aside from showing you different definitions of “worship”, I also posed a question: Do you think the people who worshipped Jesus thought he was God Almighty?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,20:59)

t8 said that the words worship and honor are the same word. t8 is correct and he gave WJ a wide opening when he admitted it.

Hi Thinker,

So “honor your mother and father” really means “worship your mother and father”?

Peace and love,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

mikeboll64…………You have it right. they try to make a case from just One word even if it is against the over all scriptures and in some case not even the word used in the sentence structure as for instance they say the word (WORD) in John 1:1 Means Jesus, not even reasoning that if that is what John Meant He would have Just simply wrote Jesus in there. I mean even this simple logic does not cause them concern. It is true that GOD has sent a Strong DELUSION in order for them to believe a LIE. ( that lie is Jesus is GOD HIMSELF)> IMO

Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 20 2010,12:41)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,03:20) I think it is funny how you guys avoid the points we make like show me how the word “Worship” in scripture has a different meaning for the Father and Jesus. Hey Keith, I think the same thing about you, tt and ca. Every time I show you what you ask, you act like you skipped right over my post and start responding to other ones.   So, aside from showing you different definitions of “worship”, I also posed a question: Do you think the people who worshipped Jesus thought he was God Almighty?

Mike

Yes!

They knew who he was and understood his claims of equality with the Father and that the Term “Son of God” meant Divinity! The Hebrew never referred to the Father as their “OWN” Father. They considered that blasphemy and that he was making himself equal to God!

That is why the opposers wanted to kill him because of his claims.

What other mere man claims he came down from heaven?

What other mere man can claim unless you eat “MY Flesh” and drink “MY Blood” you have no life in you?

To be in Jesus presence even in the flesh was an awsome and reverent thing.

Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure (infinite).

Do you know what that means? In his body was the infinite God magnified!

Before you get all excited about my statement from an Arian view that because he “Had the Spirit” without measure therefore he cannot be God. Remember that the Father has the Spirit without measure also.

That is why many worshipped him, because they knew that only God could do the things that “HE” did and claimed.

You and I have the same Spirit but we can never claim any works that we do through the Spirit as ours.

Not so with Jesus, in fact we claim that it is Jesus that does the works in us! Jesus claims that the Holy Spirit takes from him and hears him and gives to us!

Do you see the difference?

Jesus claimed to be the Almighty, but men rejected it just as they do today!

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, “the Almighty“. Rev 1:8

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Thanks, Gene!

I'm confused by your wording, though. Don't you believe the Word was Jesus?

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Was he just a body or a man in who God lived as Spirit that we can follow?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 20 2010,13:54)

mikeboll64…………You have it right. they try to make a case from just One word even if it is against the over all scriptures and in some case not even the word used in the sentence structure as for instance they say the word (WORD) in John 1:1  Means Jesus, not even reasoning that if that is what John Meant He would have Just simply wrote Jesus in there. I mean even this simple logic does not cause them concern.  It is true that GOD has sent a Strong DELUSION in order for them to believe a LIE. ( that lie is Jesus is GOD HIMSELF)>  IMO Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

Gene

Not so! John was telling us a story and Jesus when he was with the Father as the Word that was God did not have the name Jesus until he came in the flesh in John 1:14.

So why do you deny Johns own words that Jesus is the Word in 1 John 1:1-3 and Revelations 19:13?

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,07:15)

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,07:11) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,07:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,06:41) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,14:30) Ahh…the Protestant heretics against the Arian heretics…I see Well, this is common among heretics.  Luther was against Erasmus and Zwingli.  History repeats itself? CA Circular! The scriptures the CC say are inspired show much division among the Apostles and believers! I suppose they were heretics too? WJ Go read my response to this asinine claim of yours in the Scriptures section. CA, See my post immediately above yours. Hopefully you will chill out a little. WJ and I vehemently disagree in the area of eschatology. We have learned to put that aside and cultivate our alliance on the more cardinal doctrines of the faith. You are really getting on my nerves sir! thinker Maybe you aren't getting it, sir. I am waiting for you BOTH to engage me on cardinal doctrines. (funny you should use the term “cardinal doctrine”) I don't want to get on your nerves.  However someone needs to stand up to you and get you to see that your espoused heresy is NOT OK with God.

CA,

Paul said that love “rejoices in the truth.” So it seems that as our fellow trinitarian you would rejoice that WJ and I speak the truth about Christ's divinity.

But you say that we are in the “same boat” with the Arians because we are non-Catholic.

This was not Paul's attitude. He rejoiced that Christ was preached even if it was through strife and envy. So you could rejoice that WJ and I preach Christ though we are “damned” Protestants.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,06:27)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 20 2010,13:54) mikeboll64…………You have it right. they try to make a case from just One word even if it is against the over all scriptures and in some case not even the word used in the sentence structure as for instance they say the word (WORD) in John 1:1  Means Jesus, not even reasoning that if that is what John Meant He would have Just simply wrote Jesus in there. I mean even this simple logic does not cause them concern.  It is true that GOD has sent a Strong DELUSION in order for them to believe a LIE. ( that lie is Jesus is GOD HIMSELF)>  IMO Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene Gene Not so! John was telling us a story and Jesus when he was with the Father as the Word that was God did not have the name Jesus until he came in the flesh in John 1:14. So why do you deny Johns own words that Jesus is the Word in 1 John 1:1-3 and Revelations 19:13? WJ

Yes WJ,

The “Word” of verse 1 is called the “Word” again and also the “only begotten Son” in verse 14. So the “Word” was the “Only begotten Son.”

Does Gene need for God to write it in the sky that the Word is Jesus? Oh, wait, Gene says that the name “Christ” applies to many persons and things. So maybe he thinks that the name “only begotten Son” applies to many persons and things as well.

I would not put it past Gene's highly active imagination.

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,14:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,06:27) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 20 2010,13:54) mikeboll64…………You have it right. they try to make a case from just One word even if it is against the over all scriptures and in some case not even the word used in the sentence structure as for instance they say the word (WORD) in John 1:1  Means Jesus, not even reasoning that if that is what John Meant He would have Just simply wrote Jesus in there. I mean even this simple logic does not cause them concern.  It is true that GOD has sent a Strong DELUSION in order for them to believe a LIE. ( that lie is Jesus is GOD HIMSELF)>  IMO Peace and love to you and yours………………….gene Gene Not so! John was telling us a story and Jesus when he was with the Father as the Word that was God did not have the name Jesus until he came in the flesh in John 1:14. So why do you deny Johns own words that Jesus is the Word in 1 John 1:1-3 and Revelations 19:13? WJ Yes WJ, The “Word” of verse 1 is called the “Word” again and also the “only begotten Son” in verse 14. So the “Word” was the “Only begotten Son.” Does Gene need for God to write it in the sky that the Word is Jesus? Oh, wait, Gene says that the name “Christ” applies to many persons and things. So maybe he thinks that the name “only begotten Son” applies to many persons and things as well. I would not put it past Gene's highly active imagination. thinker

Jack

True. Hey Gene, can you show us a scritpure where the word “Christ” applies to anyone else other than Jesus?

Blessings WJ

[JustAskin]

WJ,

You are kidding that you claim that Jesus called himself 'The Almighty'!

I've seen you write this a few times.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 20 2010,12:37)

Do you worship Jesus with all of your heart and soul and mind and strength?

Yes, as the son of God. I speak in an ideal sense. I fall short in reality, same as I fall short of loving God with all. And I should love my fellow man as I love myself. Jesus also calls us brethren. I fall short here too.

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2010,03:20)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 20 2010,03:26) Hi T8, Isn't it funny how they keep arguing over the same garbage    over and over and over again and again and again. Ed It doesn't get any circular than this! How many times have we seen you post the “Exact same numbers” and making the same points over and over again on this board!   You speak to t8 like he or you do not particpate in the arguments! Do you see your bias to the truth? I think it is funny how you guys avoid the points we make like show me how the word “Worship” in scripture has a different meaning for the Father and Jesus. Or show us one NT example of any other recieving this worship! Instead of engaging just make ridiculous claims and patronize! WEAK!!! Blessings WJ

Hi WJ,

Both You and TT complain how people don't respond to points that you guys make.
And that is exactly what both of you guys have done with my last Post (no numbers).
See a similar pattern here? Think about it. There are a lot of threads and just because
you guys scan them all doesn't mean new people do. It's not all about you,
try to remember that before you put yourself in the judgment seat. (Ezek.28:2,9)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2010,04:33)

Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 20 2010,21:09) It does not say that the  Lamb receives less power does it? Revelation 5:13 testifies that both the Lamb and the Father receive [almighty] power! Think man think! Hey Thinker, You ignored my post in your testator topic.  So I'll throw it in your face again. Quote Hi tt, Paul was saying Jesus remembered us in his will, leaving us an inheritance.  Anyone in Jerusalem who left a will was a testator.  Don't make more out of the word than what is there. And Israel had many “saviors”.  King Saul “saved” Israel from the Philistines.  The angels God sent that wiped out 185,000 troops for Hezekiah (?) was a savior.  And if you turn one person to God in your life, you too are a savior. And I'm almost positive somewhere it says King David was a shepard of Israel. So once more, it is GOD'S new covenant and Jesus was the sacrificial lamb to cement the contract.  Jesus never said I am making a new covenant with Israel.  The new covenant with “spiritual Israel” (God's new chosen people since the Jews disowned Jesus) is between God and his chosen.  Jesus was the sacrifice and is now the mediator between the chosen and God.  And the Holy Spirit by the way is also a mediator between us and God, but that doesn't make the Holy Spirit Jesus, just because there are more than one mediator. That's how I understand it, anyway. Try not to get too hung up on a single word.  You act like if someone called God “cool”, then anyone else called cool is God. Peace and love, Mike If someone has BLANK, it must be God's BLANK. Now insert any word for the word “blank” in the above sentence, and you have The Thinker's logic. Try some words: power, honor, glory, life , arms, truck…. Come on man – YOU think.

Hi MikeBoll64,

TT didn't even bother to read my two Posts to him on the same thread: First PAGE located at bottom of the page…
Forum  » BELIEVERS PLACE » Scripture & Biblical Doctrine » God is the testator, jesus is the testator

TT reminds me of the Pharisees of old, he repremands people for not responding
to his comments and at the same time he sometimes doesn't even read what others write!
I answered his Post on the “Testator” and he didn't even read it. Instead he demands others
to answer his questions on his terms repeatedly; so I completely understand your point.

TT also completely ignored my Post on this thread which explains in great detail
their (TT and WJ) repeated USELESS arguments carried over onto almost ALL THE THREADS!

        Click Here <— For a complete explanation.

God bless you Mike Boll
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 21 2010,06:02)

Thanks, Gene! I'm confused by your wording, though.  Don't you believe the Word was Jesus?

Mikeboil……….I read John as written, I don't Change words in the text to force it to say what the author, (JOHN) wrote, this is what TRINITARIANS do. If something does not say what they want it to, they simply change its meanings to fit their false doctrines, forcing the text is deception at work.

This is what John said ” IN (THE) BEGINNING (of all things) WAS (GOD) AND THE WORD (OF GOD) WAS WITH GOD AND THE WORD WAS GOD. Just except just as written we don't need to change anything. What it say is right as written GOD and HIS WORD ARE ONE and THE SAME THING.

Now lets ask ourself what a (WORD) is < Is it a speprate inity from a Person (NO) a WORD is the very (EXPRESSION) of the Preson HIMSELF. It is one and the same thin as the Person Himself < Just as your words are one and the same thing you are, and in this case it is very GOD HIMSELF. NOT some one else.

So does that make Jesus that word because HE SPOKE GODS WORDS TO US, (NO) NO MORE THAN IT WOULD MAKE YOU THE WORD IF YOU SPOKE THEM. But some say Jesus was those words< O really then why did Jesus say the words He spoke to us were " NOT HIS WORDS" if HE WERE THE WORD, that was GOD. Jesus did indeed speak (GOD'S) words to us. But GOD also spoke through the Prophets (HIS WORDS) also. God is SPIRIT and can (INDWELL) US and Speak through US, Just as He did Jesus and the Prophets. But none of that would make Us a GOD nor does it make Jesus a GOD either.

GOD WAS IN JESUS BY THE WORDS (expressed intellect of one GOD) The FATHER was (IN) Him through HIS (GODS) WORDS> Jesus simply related those WORD to US. You and I can do the same thing if His Words abide in YOU as they were also in Jesus.

You can not separate GOD and His WORDS, No more then you could be separated from YOUR WORDS Neither can GOD be separated from HIS Word. HE (IS) HIS WORD.

Simple logic should tell us that if John was intending Jesus to be there he simply would have written it. That alone should cause doubt about the TRINITARIAN false assumptions of Jesus being a GOD.

In conclusion, NO I DO NOT THINK THE WORD WAS JESUS, I THINK JESUS SPOKE GOD THE FATHERS WORDS TO US, AS GOD REVEALED THEM TO HIM. While Jesus represented GOD the father to us and gave the fathers WORDS, that again in no way makes him the WORD He spoke, because those words were (NOT HIS) as HE SAID, Believe what Jesus himself said. IMO

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