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T8,
What you continue to fail to realize is that Jesus is God the Son. He and the Father are one!
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
When Jesus reigns during the Millenium He alone will sit in the third Temple in Jerusalem, because He alone by right of creation and right of paying the redemptive price may sit their and rule over the creation that is His and the Fathers'.
Zechariah 14: 1 Behold, the day of the LORD (Yahweh) cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD (Yahweh) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD (Yahweh) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD (Yahweh), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD (Yahweh) shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD (Yahweh), and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD (Yahweh) will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD (Yahweh) shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD (Yahweh) will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD (Yahweh) ; and the pots in the LORD's (Yahweh) house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts.
Rev. 14: 1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
The Lamb and the Father together receive the “offerring of the first fruits”
Rev. 17: 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.Rev. 19: 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 20: 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired…
We will priests of God the Father and Priests to Christ!
Rev 21: 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death… …22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 22: 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord
God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. 6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done… …8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.Quote (t8 @ April 20 2005,12:45) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 21 2005,04:07) Question: How many trinitarians have been “turned around” in this forum? Answer: ZERO
To Is 1:18,You are wrong with that assumption. Try reading the following discussion for a start.
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=1;t=12I have also personally recieved many emails from people who believe what the Trinity writing (on this site) says. You see there are many people out there that actually doubt that doctrine. It's just that they feel they are on their own in a world of deception. When they see others and read good solid teaching regarding the deception of the Trinity doctrine, they are then more confident to speak that which was in their heart.
At the same time though, I do not expect every Trinitarian and his dog to come this forum and say “oh I see that, I have changed my mind now”. Why is that? Simply because if most christians were hot, then the Trinity Doctrine wouldn't have a majority following to begin with. The reason why many do not turn to the truth when it is shown them is not because of the soundness that God is one, not three, but that they are not hot for God. Many are luke warm and follow the traditions of men. Many have a form of godliness but deny the power. The power is only in the truth.
Jesus even said that MANY will say that they served him. But he will tell those who commit iniquity to go away from him.
Just because you personally haven't seen many Trinitarians let go of their false doctrine, doesn't mean that your assumption is right. There are many reasons why you haven't seen this yourself. If you really loved the truth you might see what God is doing, but perhaps you do not love truth that much? Why should God reveal it to you if you do not? Do you need to see multitudes turn before you will? Do you follow men or God?
If Jesus said to you (when he had few followers in the beginning) follow me, would you have followed him. Or would you have waited for the multitudes to turn? Again are you a follower of man or God?
Hi t8,
Just to clarify; when I wrote “How many trinitarians have been turned around…” I meant how many have actively engaged you in a debate on the trinity and, after some consideration of your erudite points, conceded? By my rekoning, based on what I have read (naturally), this number is zero. I don't read your emails so I can't take that into consideration.The main impertus for the post, which in hindsight was probably a little more abrasive than I would have liked (although, ironically, I did tone it down at the time), was to show you how pointless it is to use rhetoric like:
– antichrist spirit
– come out of her
– useless to GodBy using these words you will only succeed in establishing an 'us and them' division in the forum. This is further exacerbated by debating amongst yourselves (the arians here) whether or not you should fellowship with trinitarians! This of course comes across as 'should we the 'enlightened of God' lower ourselves and mingle with the great unwashed, the unthinking followers of man's traditions. To me this is a quintiscentially pharisaical attitude to have to other followers of Christ. Devoid of grace. BTW, some trinitarians have reached their conclusions by logical deduction by the power of the Holy Spirit, not because the church has told us to believe it. The ineffcacy of the 'turn and burn' approach to evangelism should be a pointer to all that grace brings souls to God and reveals God's truth, not a sledge hammer.
I hope I have made my point and explained my grumpy disposition.
Grace to all
You have made your point, but I put truth higher than social etiquette. Lets imagine for a moment that Martin Luther took your attitude and decided that rather than create a 'them' and 'us' division I will keep quiet about such things as salvation not by works. Also how sucessful was he in restoring truth back to God's people? Was his success measured by the people that resisted him in the beginning or was it more of an appreciation in the long run? Hind-sight is a wonderful thing.
Simarly Christ himself for the sake of truth created a so-called 'them' and 'us' division. So long as the 'them and 'us' is about dividing those who align with truth and those who do not, then I don't see a problem. That is why the teachers of the Law were rebuked by Christ. They didn't conform to the truth even though were the supposed teachers of it.
If people resist truth for the sake of mens tradition, then that is not my problem. My responsibility is to declare that which God has declared to me. If people resist that, then it is not my fault. You see the same things with the prophets. God's so-called people killed them, cut them in 2 and other such horrors. Then God sent his son and they killed him too. What is God to do now?
Is it any surprise if people who defend the Trinity doctrine will resist what I teach. The very fact that they teach it, shows me what kind of teachers they are.
But the vast majority of people here are listeners and I do hear from them once in a while. But you will actually find that that I am not the only one who defends the 1st commandment and you are not the only one who defends the Trinity doctrine. Have you seen anyone who teaches that the Father is the Most High God and Christ as his son, then being converted or swayed by the Trinitarian arguement. I haven't seen that either.
The point you make goes the other way and actually proves nothing. Men often resist truth anyway.
Now if we look at history, we can see that the Trinity doctrine came later. So it was them who created the 'them' and 'us' situation. I only preach that which is scripture. I am not the one preaching man-made tradition and thereby trying to create division. I preach scripture only. But you teach men-made creeds too. You are responsible for that, not me.
If I teach scripture and people are offended by that, then their problem is not with me but God. I make no apology for scripture and the truth.
T8,
Of course you cannot repent. Your pride and arrogance forbid it. To do so would mean that all your “revelations” and “truths” are not of God, and so they are NOT. But you, through the hardness of your heart have denied the truth and replaced it with a lie and have taught others the same to your condemnation.
I say this out of love, not hate, my prayer is that the Lord Jesus you deny as God and the Father would grant you eyes to see and a repentant heart that your shame and nakedness would not be manifest at the Day of the Lord. And, that those whom you have harmed through this perversion of the Word of God which you have propagated would repent and turn back to their “First Love”, the Yahweh Redeemer, Jesus Christ the Mesiah, The Word of God that is God and is from everlasting to everlasting one with the Father.
Rudy
To Rudy,
When you cannot defend truth with scripture you can always resort to false accusations. That is what they did to Christ and so they will do to those who follow him.
What else can I say. For what sin have I committed that you should speak to me with such words?
If you love God then you will also love truth for truth is of God. If you follow man then you will have a problem with truth and resist it. For God is not a man that he should lie. If we are to repent, then turn from the things of man and to God and his works. After all God is love and the works of man are based on pride.
Quote (t8 @ April 24 2005,03:18) To Rudy, When you cannot defend truth with scripture you can always resort to false accusations. That is what they did to Christ and so they will do to those who follow him.
I did defend it, and you ignored it. I love you more than you will know.The world is full of those with “Divine Knowledge”. That's what started Islam, Mormanism, Jehova's Witnesses, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, etc.
Oh, and they all had the “right way” and all of us “in darkness” were wrong.
That was a hard post. I wrote that by the Holy Spirit 6-7 hours ago and wrestled with it not wanting to post it. I'm sure I won't be popular, but not everyone will receive the truth. I'm reminded of the Pharisees who “knew it all” and denied their Messiah.
But obedience is required of a servant, and Christ Jesus is my Lord!
Quote (Rudy @ April 24 2005,22:28) I did defend it, and you ignored it.
You didn't defend it well. For your argument is against scripture.- God's name is YHWH. He is the only Almighty God
- YHWH begat a son. His name is Yeshua/Yahshua/Jesus
- His son is the image of God, his father.
- God sent his son into the world to save us.
- Some humans will partake of the divine nature and will be like Yeshua. Those that follow Yeshua and who God saves.
- When Yeshua walked the earth, his God (his Father) was our God and Father too. This is still true even now that Yeshua is seated with God on his throne. His Father is his God and our God
- There is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ
The Trinity doctrine nor your teaching agrees with this. You have not defended the truth at all. You are defending a philosophy of man that came hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written. Your doctrine comes from man, not scripture. In that sense you are not following Christ, rather Constantine and Athanasius.
The antichrist spirit is indeed in this world and working away to erode the truths of scripture. I am not denying that you may be a true believer of God. But if you have any sense, you should teach that which is scripture and keep away from the doctrines of man and demon.
Teachers will be judged more severely than other believers. Not all should teach for this reason.
Was it only the physical body of Christ that died?. Was the physical suffering He went through what was needed to save us? Does Psalms 22 give us insight into what was going thought His mind when He hung on the cross? The Father cannot cease to exist. If He did, then everything would cease to exist at the same time. Jesus, being begotten of the Father before time began, can die. Not just His body, but His being. He was dead. For 3 days. The Father has life in Himself and He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. (John 5:26) They both have life in themselves but the Father has it because He does and the Son has it because the Father grants it. This divine quality which was granted by the Father can be laid aside. Jesus emptied Himself of these divine attributes and took on the form of a bondservant and came in the likeness of men. (Phillipians 2:7) Jesus is the only one who was ever begotten of the Father. This is why He is divine. Everything we see, the Father created through the Son out of nothing. Jesus was not created out of nothing. He was begotten.
Could Jesus when He was on the cross during His last moments when He cried “Father, Father why hast thou forsaken me?”, see past the grave? I know He told the thief he would be with Him in paradise, but I think this was a little while earlier to His calling out to the Father. At that moment He cried out, I personally do not think He could see past the grave, but yet His love for mankind was that great, and His love to do the Father's will, that He remained on the cross. The Father's love for us was so great that He allowed such a great sacrifice. God is omnipresent. If Jesus was conscious after the cross during those three days then He was not separated from the Father. However, if dead is dead, and Hades is the grave, and Jesus did not live again until the 3rd day, then the magnitude of the sacrifice can be seen. Since before time began, when Jesus was begotten of the Father, they were together. During the three days when Jesus was in the grave, this relationship ceased.
The suffering Jesus went through did not save us. It was His death that saved us. He could have been euthanized with sodium penethol and we still would have been saved. The suffering He went through reveals both the true nature of the devil who provoked the people to due this, and the Love of both the Father and the Son to endure it. Catholics believe His suffering is what save us and thus we have the movie “the Passion”. The bible mentions the suffering Jesus endured but it does not dwell on it.
Do we have a saviour who truly died for us or do we only have a body that was killed for us.
Hi Rudy,
Where can I get a bible that uses the proper Hebrew names of Jesus and of the Father?
thx Greg,
Your post is an interesting one. I certainly agree with most of it. Some other parts I am not sure about, but I will remain open to your words. I might learn something new?
Quote (Guest @ April 24 2005,11:56) Hi Rudy, Where can I get a bible that uses the proper Hebrew names of Jesus and of the Father?
Try this:T8,
1 Corinthians 2:14 – But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
That's the problem with trying to read the bible and interpret it in your own thoughts, it leaves the you without the means wherewith to understand that which you read. That is why Christ didn't proclaim who He was to His followers, He allowed God to reveal it to the hearts of those who desired righteousness:
Matt 16: 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
The natural man does not desire spiritual things. He likes sin, revels in it, celebrates it with others. The thought is continued:
Rev 22:11 – He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
No one is forced to love righteousness, so Jesus (Emmanuel, God with Us) did not force Himself upon mankind. That won't be the case in the Tribulation.
The man who seeks righteousness will find it, he who does not will not. He who loves his own life (sinful flesh) will lose it, he who through the Spirit puts to death the deeds of the body (sin) will find it.
In closing:
I cannot continue to put this much time as others do into this board. I have larger responsibilities and cannot shirk them with a clear conscience. What I said to you T8 was truly by the Holy Spirit, I trust God to use it to His purpose to draw others back to the Truth, Jesus Christ is Emmanuel, GOD WITH US!
To all who call on God the Son, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost!
In Christ
RudyQuote (Rudy @ April 24 2005,03:07) T8, Of course you cannot repent. Your pride and arrogance forbid it. To do so would mean that all your “revelations” and “truths” are not of God, and so they are NOT. But you, through the hardness of your heart have denied the truth and replaced it with a lie and have taught others the same to your condemnation.
I say this out of love, not hate, my prayer is that the Lord Jesus you deny as God and the Father would grant you eyes to see and a repentant heart that your shame and nakedness would not be manifest at the Day of the Lord. And, that those whom you have harmed through this perversion of the Word of God which you have propagated would repent and turn back to their “First Love”, the Yahweh Redeemer, Jesus Christ the Mesiah, The Word of God that is God and is from everlasting to everlasting one with the Father.
Rudy
Undeserved, Rudy and untrue.
Quote (Cubes @ April 24 2005,18:02) Quote (Rudy @ April 24 2005,03:07) T8, Of course you cannot repent. Your pride and arrogance forbid it. To do so would mean that all your “revelations” and “truths” are not of God, and so they are NOT. But you, through the hardness of your heart have denied the truth and replaced it with a lie and have taught others the same to your condemnation.
I say this out of love, not hate, my prayer is that the Lord Jesus you deny as God and the Father would grant you eyes to see and a repentant heart that your shame and nakedness would not be manifest at the Day of the Lord. And, that those whom you have harmed through this perversion of the Word of God which you have propagated would repent and turn back to their “First Love”, the Yahweh Redeemer, Jesus Christ the Mesiah, The Word of God that is God and is from everlasting to everlasting one with the Father.
Rudy
Undeserved, Rudy and untrue.
You forget Cubes, that this is not our Gospel, it is the Gospel of God. A servant is required to be obedient. according to T8 Jesus must not have “debated” the Pharisees and Saducees well because they did not repent of their “doctrines of men” in which they made of none effect “the Power of God.”That is why there are soooo many different “interpretations”, because men try to discern with their intelligence rather than the Comforter who is to guide us in all truth, for He speaks of God and not of Himself. Men speak of their interpretation and pollute the truth!
1 Cor. 1:17 For Christ (Emmanuel, God with us, the Annointed One) sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Download and instal this program, it is free and very good:
Well, here I am again. I feel like saying one thing. Will everybody please just lighten up. What a lot of hulabaloo! Rudy, I think the issue of the trinity has become so contentious and even though I may not agree with T8's doctrine I don't think he has lost his salvation and I can't condemn him for what he believes. I do not believe that the doctrine of the trinity is central to salvation. In fact the conversation has become so ingrown. I'm sure that the father, God almighty, Yeshua,the only son of God and the Holy Spirit, are bored to tears{quite literally}. He's called us to do great things in His name. But, this endless debate; what's so great about it. You tell me. My Bible tells me that heaven rejoices more over one sinner who comes to repentance, not when we have a more perfect doctrine. Are we becoming Saducees and Pharisees; doctrine police, trying to convert the converted, a closed circle, touching none , judging all but those who agree with us? So, Rudy, I don't think T8 deserves to be judged, rather let mercy prevail for God knows the truth in the end.
I'm not saying there is not a place for saying this is what I believe and defending it but if noone gets saved where is the victory? Let's lighten up!Thanks Rudy!
I have added this to my favorites sites.
In the days of the Apostles the spirit of ant-christ was the denial that He came at all. Now the denial is His Deity. That is what this page is all about, the anti-christ spirit. When you call him a son of God yet deny His deity (status as God) saying that He like you and I are “sons of God”, is to attempt to make Him a mere man. The scriptures don't say that, and T8's attempts to discredit it are laughable to any “true” believer. Because it denies the need for a Holy sacrifice to cleanse us of sin. Christ was that Holy sacrifice. Remember there is no “being” Holy but God, so Christ IS God, He was and IS Holy.
If a Holy sacrifice were not needed than another “door” to heaven could be claimed by “ANY” religion that offered a “sinless” sacrifice. The reason Christ is THE ONLY “Door” is that God took on flesh, in human form (for He was not of the sinful nature of satan, but of God), was subject to the same temptations as you and I (yet without sin) and offered Himself (God the Son) to God the “Father” (now that he had begotten a son through Mary) on the cross to pay for all mankinds sins.
Sin nature man, even if he lived a sinless life cannot pay the price for all for the remission of sin. That's why The Word of God that IS God layed down His glory and came in human form to redeem us. To deny this is to deny Christ.
You and I are not 'sons of God” by virtue of birth, we are sons of satan (spiritually speaking), we have the nature of our father satan at birth. God did NOT beget you and I, we were created! We are His creation and we are sons ONLY by faith in God the Sons sacrifice for our sin, then we are “grafted” in, adopted, not natural birth!
When the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, the Spirit of “The Word of God” (Yahweh pre-incarnate) was imparted to the child Jesus (Emmanuel, God with us) at conception. Then God the Spirit became “Father” and Mary beget God the Son.
Maybe this will help:
Hi Rudy,
Thank you for the link. I have also added the one to which you referred Greg.
On page 130 or 131 of the Trinity thread, I posted a response to MM on Zechariah 14 once. Do you mind looking at it and letting me know what you think of it…you too Is 1:18.
Lastly Rudy, could you please tell us in a nutshell what your understanding of the Eternal God is and who Christ is in relation to him?
Yeshua is the Incarnate “Word of God” who is God and with God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
I've read T8's arguments against this verse and again they are laughable.
Yeshua was EQUAL in every sense to God prior to His incarnation.
Phillipians 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The word “grasped” in the greek is the word harpagamos. The translation is the passive form of the verb which means “to hold as a prize”, something an individual would not give up.
So Yeshua did not see His equality with God as a thing that would be worth keeping (as a prize [harpagamos] that He would not relinquish) in regard to laying aside His glory (Godhood) to take on flesh and the cross to become our salvation which is just what He did!
Again, I've seen other's interpretations of this verse and again they are laughable.
Make NO mistake, before His incarnation He WAS ONE WITH God, He was God the Word!
For Yahweh ALONE is our REDEEMER! His name is ONE!
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