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Quote (eveh @ Sep. 19 2009,18:06) Not much to speculate about. It says pretty clearly….. In 1 John 2:22–23, we read, “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.”
THIS IS THE ANTICHRIST, HE WHO DENIES THE FATHER AND THE SON. TWO. Not Jesus the Father, or God the Son or any nonsense like that. HE WHO DENIES THE FATHER AND THE SON. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. God is the heavenly Father. They are as one but they are not the same. If you deny that Jesus was a man who came in the flesh to die for our sins, you are antichrist. It was not God who died for our sins, it was Jesus the man, conceived by the Holy Spirit but a man just like us. Not God in the flesh. He represented God, just as a salesman represents the boss of his company. He spoke for him, he obeyed him, he was the face of the company to whoever he spoke to, but he was not the Boss. He was a representative of the Boss.
I know you wish it were as you say. But to isolate a text from it's context (the Church) is to create a pretext for error.This verse is VERY general if taken on the surface. What does it mean to deny “the Father and the Son”? So are the Mormons good? They claim to confess the Father and the Son. They claim to believe that Jesus is the Christ.
What about the Muslims? They believe that Jesus is the Christ.
I scarcely need to mention everyone here. I bet if you took a poll and asked everyone here, “Do you confess the Father and the Son…and do you believe that Jesus is the Christ?” Everyone here would say they did.
Lame.
~ Trinity Analysis ~
I have a few thoughts or questions on this false doctrine of ‘trinity’. If you are one who is deceived into believing this false teaching, I hope you will sincerely take stock of these questions, and seek for the answers.
First, consider this. This doctrine says that there are three distinct persons in one Godhead. The first thing you should do is to make a search of Scripture and see if this is actually stated anywhere in Scripture. Then the teaching says that The Father is the first person in this Godhead. So then show me where the Word of God says this.
Then it says that God the Son, meaning Jesus, is the second person in this Godhead. First, that term, God the Son, is never found in Scripture. This eliminates that as truth. But where does the Word state that Jesus is the second person in this Godhead? For that matter, where does the Word even mention ‘persons’ in the Godhead?
Now take close thought to this next one. This is what God impressed on me today to show you. They say the Holy Ghost is the third person in the Godhead. So, first, where does the Word even indicate that the Holy Ghost is a ‘person’? The idea of God being three men is nowhere supported in Scripture. It could not possibly fit any Scripture about God.
For one proof of this, see that Jesus stated in John 17, that His Father was in him, and he was in his Father. So if they are two different MEN, there is no way the Father, a man, could be inside Jesus, another man. Then of course there is the dilemma of Jesus being in the Father, as the Father is in him. Can you get any understanding on how this could be, considering them both to be distinct men? I say there is no way.
But now back to the idea that the Holy Ghost is also another different man. How in this world can any person who has ever read any Scripture possibly think the Holy Ghost is a man? If so, then how is it that the Holy Ghost, being a man, is inside so many different people?
But the real question is this: they say the Holy Ghost is the third person in this Godhead. So I ask you, if the Holy Ghost existed before Jesus, then how could he be counted as the third? After all, it does say that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and caused the conception of Jesus. So then, this proves that the Holy Ghost existed before Jesus. So then why would not the Holy Ghost be second to the Father, instead of Jesus? See, it is not sensible. If the Holy Ghost brought about the conception of Jesus, then how could Jesus be counted before the Holy Ghost?
What tells anyone that the Holy Ghost is third? I want someone to show me that in Scripture. And if you cannot find it anywhere in Scripture, perhaps you should consider that this truly is A DOCTRINE OF SATAN. There is no Scripture basis for any of the words used to describe or teach the trinity. No Apostle or writer of Scripture said any of the words used to teach this false doctrine. This doctrine says God was incarnate into Jesus. I ask you, where does the word ever say this? It does not. So it is lies of man.
If this teaching is correct, I ask you, why did not one Apostle ever utter the words which men use to prove their lie?
Now another thing you should consider is this: If you think a member of the Godhead, a God, existed first in Heaven, then left Heaven, descended to earth, and got into Mary’s womb, to become a human being, Please explain, with Scripture, to me, how did this occur? Which ‘god’ left heaven and got inside Mary’s womb? How did that take place? How did the Holy Ghost carry this other ‘member’ of the Godhead, down and put him into Mary’s womb? After all, it says that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, causing her to conceive this ‘second person’ of the Godhead in her womb? Does the Word actually tell us that this happened? If so, please give me the place it is mentioned. I truly wish to read that. (Now if you believe this trinity doctrine, you must see that there has to be answers to these questions, for something had to happened to bring that ‘second person’ of God down and place him into Mary’s womb, as a tiny cell.)
Many people claim that Jehovah was the one who left Heaven and got inside Mary, to become a man. If this is true, please show me that. If that is true, then are you saying that Jehovah was no longer in existence as God? Was there another man still in Heaven, called the Father? So then you are saying that Jehovah was not the Father? So what is the Father’s name? How did this great Jehovah descend into Mary and become a helpless baby? When did Jehovah become in existence again? Or did he?
If Jehovah is the person or man, who got into Mary’s womb, why did not the angel tell them to name him Jehovah? Did Jehovah cease to be? If Jehovah were a man in heaven, how did this man become another man inside Mary? How did he leave his greatness and become a tiny cell in Mary? Does the Word of God teach any such stuff? If so, please show it to me in plain words. It must be recorded at least twice in Scripture to be established as truth. So if you believe and teach this false stuff, please show me a verse which says any of this.
Surely you know that God did not leave it up to man to teach his own thoughts about what God is, who he is, and how Jesus came to be. Did God die on the cross? If so, then he was mortal and not immortal. This also means he could not have been eternal. The very fact that Jesus died, proves he was not eternal. Eternal beings had no beginning and no ending. Jesus ended as he lay in the grave. So was God DEAD? If Jesus were God, then God was dead. At least on ‘part?’ of God was dead. Was it the second or third part of God which died?
See, if this trinity doctrine is true, all of these answers must be clearly taught in plain Scripture. The Apostles had to have taught it.
1Cor 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
See this tells us not to think of men above that which is WRITTEN. So if Jesus were a man, then we are not to think a thing about him which is not written. You know, that is my message, “If it is not written, it is lies.”
History tells us that the man who worked to formulate this trinity doctrine, became so confused, that he confessed that he could no longer think of it rationally. This is the very reason why. The truth is not in confusion, as this and the Jesus-only doctrine are. Neither doctrine fits any Scripture. It is all lies of carnal-minded men, who changed the Word of God, and made up lies. What are you believing? Upon what do you trust your eternal life, or soul? Think seriously about this.
By: Jo Smith…. 10/15, 2006
Quote The first thing you should do is to make a search of Scripture and see if this is actually stated anywhere in Scripture. Debate me on Sola Scriptura. You'll have to start there.
To all the rest of you. There is a reason I almost left the forum shortly after beginning. Not because I couldn't debate you. I think you all know now that I can.
But because we are arguing from two different premises.
So from now on, if you want to talk with me….we'll be talking about your presuppositions about Scripture.
Get me off this crazy thing!
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 19 2009,18:26) I scarcely need to mention everyone here. I bet if you took a poll and asked everyone here, “Do you confess the Father and the Son…and do you believe that Jesus is the Christ?” Everyone here would say they did. Lame.
If you asked every Trinitarian if they think God is one, and a HE, HIM, they would say yes, because that is what scripture undoubtedly says. Reality is they believe 3 to be God. They believe in THEM, THOSE. Yet what Trinitarian would dare start a prayer saying “Dear God persons in Heaven”. Yet that is what they teach.So do why do they not have enough faith in their own doctrine and pray to THEM, the God persons?
Lamest.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 20 2009,19:13) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 19 2009,18:26) I scarcely need to mention everyone here. I bet if you took a poll and asked everyone here, “Do you confess the Father and the Son…and do you believe that Jesus is the Christ?” Everyone here would say they did. Lame.
If you asked every Trinitarian if they think God is one, and a HE, HIM, they would say yes, because that is what scripture undoubtedly says. Reality is they believe 3 to be God. They believe in THEM, THOSE. Yet what Trinitarian would dare start a prayer saying “Dear God persons in Heaven”. Yet that is what they teach.So do why do they not have enough faith in their own doctrine and pray to THEM, the God persons?
Lamest.
You've been fighting a losing battle for some time as I can tell by looking at the Trinitarians here who continually refute you at every turn.Give up.
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