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Quote (kerwin @ June 26 2012,17:38) T8; I am mystified by your argument which is that those that are called messengers may be humans instead of denizens of the realms of Spirit as it does not lead to proving Jesus has ever been anything other than a human being.
We are taught that the World to Come is not subject to beings from the realm of Spirit, Hebrews 2:5. We are also taught that Jesus has been a Messenger of God to humanity only in these last days, Hebrews 1:2.
The form of God is love, 1 John 4:16.
Kerwin, the bible is full of mysteries.
And the nature of a mystery is by its very definition, not clear to all.Couple that with the fact that I do not say that Jesus is the Angel of the LORD, but could be, as many others also think is possible.
Jesus existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, died, rose again, and is seated at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
To all;
Hebrews 1:2
King James Version (KJV)1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1) This Scripture teaches that God spoke through the profits in previous times.
2) It also teaches us that only in these last days has he spoken through his Son.
We are taught that the Angel of God spoke to the people in previous times and therefore cannot be the Son, who has spoken to believers in these last days.
We are taught the World to come is not subject to to angels and so it is not subjected to the Angel of the Lord; though it is subjected to the Son.
Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2012,17:17) To all; Hebrews 1:2
King James Version (KJV)1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1) This Scripture teaches that God spoke through the profits in previous times.
2) It also teaches us that only in these last days has he spoken through his Son.
We are taught that the Angel of God spoke to the people in previous times and therefore cannot be the Son, who has spoken believers in these last days.
We are taught the World to come is not subject to to angels and so it is not subjected to the Angel of the Lord; though it is subjected to the Son.
Kyou should read ALL of the Hebrew letter and understand what Paul is saying ,
so you can answer those questions you are asking
Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2012,10:17) To all; We are taught that the Angel of God spoke to the people in previous times
and therefore cannot be the Son, who has spoken believers in these last days.We are taught the World to come is not subject to to angels and so
it is not subjected to the Angel of the Lord; though it is subjected to the Son.
Hi Kerwin,It seems some of us are having trouble making the distinctions you have made.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ June 28 2012,18:45) Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2012,10:17) To all; We are taught that the Angel of God spoke to the people in previous times
and therefore cannot be the Son, who has spoken believers in these last days.We are taught the World to come is not subject to to angels and so
it is not subjected to the Angel of the Lord; though it is subjected to the Son.
Hi Kerwin,It seems some of us are having trouble making the distinctions you have made.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org
edj and Kit seems that you guys can not understand scriptures ,ONLY VERSES AND THEN ONLY ONE AT THE TIME ,
you both should read the whole letter to the HEBREW and meditate on it
Quote (Ed J @ June 28 2012,18:49) Kerwin was not asking any questions, Pierre.
edjI know but I did and still waiting
T;
Those few passages teach us certain things but the rest of Hebrews still teach us more and reinforce those things we already know.
Chapter 1 is clearly making the point that the Son is not an angel for to which angel did God state “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?”. Instead he commanded the angels to pay homage to the Son, Hebrews 1:5-6.
Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2012,21:45) T; Those few passages teach us certain things but the rest of Hebrews still teach us more and reinforce those things we already know.
Chapter 1 is clearly making the point that the Son is not an angel for to which angel did God state “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?”. Instead he commanded the angels to pay homage to the Son, Hebrews 1:5-6.
Kwhen? why ?, were ?? and what angels ?
answer me those questions
For the private discussion between T8 and Nick, it would be easier for Nick to understand if the discussion was happening in Greek. Well, it wouldn't be easier to understand, (unless he speaks greek) but all his comments would seem rather silly if we were to translate them into Greek.
He would be saying: “No, angel does not mean angel.” He would be saying this over and over and over again. “Angel does not mean angel.” Or, he would be saying: “messenger does not mean messenger.” And: Messenger is not messenger. Or “An angel is not an angel.”
Let's put that whole discussion into a Greek translator, and perhaps Nick will understand the humor of his statements better.
I also wonder if it means anything to anyone that angel and messenger are the same word. Like, perhaps spirit angels/messengers (angels) are primarily known as being angels/messengers (messengers), and hence, that is why spirit angels/messengers are called angels/messengers (messengers/angels).
The greek would really make that more clear.
david
Quote (david @ June 28 2012,16:10) For the private discussion between T8 and Nick, it would be easier for Nick to understand if the discussion was happening in Greek. Well, it wouldn't be easier to understand, (unless he speaks greek) but all his comments would seem rather silly if we were to translate them into Greek. He would be saying: “No, angel does not mean angel.” He would be saying this over and over and over again. “Angel does not mean angel.” Or, he would be saying: “messenger does not mean messenger.” And: Messenger is not messenger. Or “An angel is not an angel.”
Let's put that whole discussion into a Greek translator, and perhaps Nick will understand the humor of his statements better.
I also wonder if it means anything to anyone that angel and messenger are the same word. Like, perhaps spirit angels/messengers (angels) are primarily known as being angels/messengers (messengers), and hence, that is why spirit angels/messengers are called angels/messengers (messengers/angels).
The greek would really make that more clear.
david
Hi AllAn angel is a messenger.
An angel is also a servant of the Lord,
An angel fights for the Lord, so is part of God's army,
and an angel is a protector of whomever the lord sends him to protect.
An angel is also a witness of the Most high and our Lord Jesus, also a witness against Satan and wicked men, and a witness to good men
An angel is a policeman of the spirit world
and an angel is a creature
An angel is so much more than a just messenger,A postman is a messenger
also a newsreader
the prophets are messengers
so are the followers
We don't need the Greek meaning to understand what an angel is, we just need to know God, and we will understand.
The bible is available in all languages, for everyone,
not just for the Greeks
We all speak the same language when it comes to spiritual, there is no barrier
For God shares his word to allGod bless everyone
T;
Jehovah states that he commanded the angels to pay homage to Jesus Christ as soon as he came into the world, Hebrews 1:6. I have heard of no angel he did not so instruct. I know the angels paid him homage when he was first revealed to the world, Luke 2:13-14. That was done at Bethlehem.
Jehovah prophesied that he would acknowledge his Son when setting the king on his holy hill, Psalms 2:6-7. The why is mentioned in Philippians 2:6-10.
There really isn't that much to understand here.
It is obvious that the word malak/angel/messenger is applied to heavenly messengers and men too.
It is also obvious that the word angel at times refers exclusively to heavenly beings in particular.
That is why context is important. There is no one rule here.Similarly, the words theos & elohim are exclusively used of the Father most of the time. But is also used of angels, men, Satan, idols, and demons or false gods.
I bet that most understand this deep down, but due to intellectual pride, some are going beyond this and trying to apply rules that don't work. Hence why Nick could not admit that the world malak/angel/messenger can apply to men. And why Ed J is trying hard to to turn all applications of this word to men as being an adjective like angelic.
I think that some are just trying to protect predefined doctrines and that is the real reason for not accepting how scripture treats the word angel. We should not silence or change scripture. Rather we should change or be silent if we differ with scripture.
Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,01:29) T; Jehovah states that he commanded the angels to pay homage to Jesus Christ as soon as he came into the world, Hebrews 1:6. I have heard of no angel he did not so instruct. I know the angels paid him homage when he was first revealed to the world, Luke 2:13-14. That was done at Bethlehem.
Jehovah prophesied that he would acknowledge his Son when setting the king on his holy hill, Psalms 2:6-7. The why is mentioned in Philippians 2:6-10.
K43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.XXL version
Quote (kerwin @ June 27 2012,21:45) T; Those few passages teach us certain things but the rest of Hebrews still teach us more and reinforce those things we already know.
Chapter 1 is clearly making the point that the Son is not an angel for to which angel did God state “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?”. Instead he commanded the angels to pay homage to the Son, Hebrews 1:5-6.
Hi Kerwin,Read the passages you mentioned in Young's Literal Translation. Then tell me how your understanding changed when you read the correct translation of the word “aggelos”.
Quote (kerwin @ June 28 2012,10:17) To all; Hebrews 1:2
King James Version (KJV)1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
1) This Scripture teaches that God spoke through the profits in previous times.
2) It also teaches us that only in these last days has he spoken through his Son.
We are taught that the Angel of God spoke to the people in previous times and therefore cannot be the Son, who has spoken to believers in these last days.
We are taught the World to come is not subject to to angels and so it is not subjected to the Angel of the Lord; though it is subjected to the Son.
Kerwin.The prophets were messengers;giving the message to israel.
Angels also gave messages to daniel: he was the messenger.
Jesus gave the message to the apostles;he is THE messenger.The saints passed on the message to the flock;they are messengers.
we are passing the message to our brethren;we are messengers.wakeup.
To all;
You all know it is written that the the World to come is not subject to Messengers. If you state Messengers means both man and angelic beings then you state it is not subject to Jesus Christ. You know that is not true. That leaves you with two possibilities which are:
1} The earth is subject to humanity and the creatures from the realm of spirit are called angels
2} The earth is subject to the creatures from the realm of spirit and humanity is called angels.
Elsewhere it is written that humanity is created a little lower than the Messengers. In that passage it can be seen that:
1} Jesus was created a human
2} The Messengers spoken of are not part of humanity.It is also written that instead of taking on the nature of Messengers he took on himself the seed of Abraham. This teaches us that:
1} the Messengers spoken of are not the seed of Abraham
2} Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham
3} Jesus Christ does not have the nature of the Messengers spoken of.Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2012,05:16) Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2012,01:29) T; Jehovah states that he commanded the angels to pay homage to Jesus Christ as soon as he came into the world, Hebrews 1:6. I have heard of no angel he did not so instruct. I know the angels paid him homage when he was first revealed to the world, Luke 2:13-14. That was done at Bethlehem.
Jehovah prophesied that he would acknowledge his Son when setting the king on his holy hill, Psalms 2:6-7. The why is mentioned in Philippians 2:6-10.
K43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.XXL version
T,That is Deuteronomy 32.43 in the Greek but seems to be lacking in the Hebrew language manuscripts. Some believe Psalm 97.7 is a parallel passage.
Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2012,09:45) To all; You all know it is written that the the World to come is not subject to Messengers. If you state Messengers means both man and angelic beings then you state it is not subject to Jesus Christ. You know that is not true. That leaves you with two possibilities which are:
1} The earth is subject to humanity and the creatures from the realm of spirit are called angels
2} The earth is subject to the creatures from the realm of spirit and humanity is called angels.
Elsewhere it is written that humanity is created a little lower than the Messengers. In that passage it can be seen that:
1} Jesus was created a human
2} The Messengers spoken of are not part of humanity.It is also written that instead of taking on the nature of Messengers he took on himself the seed of Abraham. This teaches us that:
1} the Messengers spoken of are not the seed of Abraham
2} Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham
3} Jesus Christ does not have the nature of the Messengers spoken of.
Kerwin.What are the apostles? Have they not given us the message?
Are they not men?Example; the book of revelation:came from God,he gave it to Jesus, and Jesus gave it o the angel, and the angel gave it to John, and john gave it to the churches,and the churches give it to the world. From Jesus –to — the churches and the individual are all messengers.
Jesus/angels/men/ all are messengers.wakeup.
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