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hi Irene
you also have to understand that anyone in power 2,3,4,5,thousand years ago was called lord or king ,prince
every city build add a king ,compared to today it is only a Maire,what is far from lord and king title.Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2010,17:27) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,11:08) Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2010,18:33) Quote HERE IS MY PROBLEM, IF Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, that doesnt add to the Trinitarian bases of God being a Trintiy, nor does it add to the Antitrinitarian,
all it means that Jesus is the First and the Last,Just as many places in scriptures says taht Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation, the first to rise fromt he dead, and what not.
I dont see why Mike or anyone else would debate this as Jesus being God.
Its as simple as that, Jesus is the Alpaha and the Omega expressed in scriptures,Jesus definitely is called the first and the last in other places in Revelation, but in both cases it is connected to his death and resurrection. Jesus is the first and last in a very specific sense, and different from God being the first and last (eternal.)
I agree with you that Jesus simply being called first and last doesn't prove anything. (or being called Alpha and omega, which he isn't.) Two or three people can be called 'lord' and not be the same one. Two people can be called “first and last” but those words can be used in a very different sense (as they are.)
JESUS
“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)
“I am the First [“First,” Alexandrian Manuscript, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.” (REVELATION 1:17,18)I'm not sure others notice how when the scriptures speak of Jesus being the first, they connect his death to this.
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”So, yes, I agree that two being both called “first and last” in different ways doesn't mean they're the same being.
David,You make many good points, better than when I tried to explain that in one way the words can be a title and the other times descriptions of what they do.
Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, ” It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
In this verse I see “the spring of the water of life” and I picture Jesus who is the living water…..
Many times in the OT (especially in Psalms) in the middle of a sentence or paragraph one person is talking and then it changes to another.
Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
This appears to have Jesus talking because later it says, “I Jesus….”
However, this verse just doesn't seem to fit into place. Or if this is God talking, then it is in the midst of another as happened in the OT.
the Professor
hi Dbfif God message is given to Christ then toa angel then to anothers angel then to man then to a group of men and then to the all men on earth ,DID THE WORD OF GOD CHANGED?not to me
IS THE WORD OF GOD LESS IMPORTANTE ?not to me
GOD IS NOT A GOD OF DESORDER BUT ORDER AND WISDOM,
SO HE HAS MAKE SURE THAT HIS WORDS STAY IN THE SPIRIT THE SAME.
2Sa 6:7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
God can protect what is his.we need God to protect us.
WE JUST HAVE TO LOVE TRUTH TO ITS FULL EXEND TO KNOW.Pierre
Pierre,I agree that it doesn't matter that God gave it to JC, etc.
What does matter is that translators have added as someone pointed out to promote a Trinitarian idea….especially with this Alpha and Omega phrase.
Look at the confusion that it is causing and who wins when he can cause dissention and confusion?
If it is a title as someone is saying and that this title can apply to anyone, then it doesn't matter. But, if you try to apply the title to one and only one individual then there is a problem. First and last could apply to both God and Jesus as another explained.
Maybe God allowed this to be tampered with to test our “faith” and “knowledge” of Him?
The Professor
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 25 2010,05:10) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 11 2010,10:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 10 2010,15:24) I agree with Marty. The only one in Rev called the Alpha and Omega is God. And Jesus is clearly identified as someone other than God throughout Rev. peace and love,
mike
Is that so?Revelations 1
8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
9I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
——–This person who said he was The Alpha and The Omega is Jesus Christ himself, as clearly outlined here.
In my bible, those words are also in “Red” which references words of Jesus Christ.
——–
It's funny how people rationalize and choose to see what they want to see, but according to The Only Translated Authority, that matches the original hebrew/greek text “The King James Version”
It is Jesus Christ who is claiming to be The Alpha and Omega…Our Father YHVH is calling himself that too…as well.
either Jesus is lying, or they are one in the same.
Thank you.
My Husband says also that it is Jesus, He had a beginning and is the end , who is to come. Rev. 19:13 -16 also is The Word of God(Who was Jesus) Also in Hebrew and John 1:1-14 Jesus or The Word of God is called God. My understandinmg is that God is a title and many in Ancient times were called God. That takes nothing away from the Almighty Jehovah God…. I still don't understand though that Jesus is called the Almighty. He is called Lord and not LORD like it says in Isaiah.
To me there is something not quit right, so I am going to pray about it……
Peace Irene
hmmm are you starting to understand why some of us claim Jesus is God?honestly asking. no offense
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 26 2010,07:02) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2010,17:27) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,11:08) Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2010,18:33) Quote HERE IS MY PROBLEM, IF Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, that doesnt add to the Trinitarian bases of God being a Trintiy, nor does it add to the Antitrinitarian,
all it means that Jesus is the First and the Last,Just as many places in scriptures says taht Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation, the first to rise fromt he dead, and what not.
I dont see why Mike or anyone else would debate this as Jesus being God.
Its as simple as that, Jesus is the Alpaha and the Omega expressed in scriptures,Jesus definitely is called the first and the last in other places in Revelation, but in both cases it is connected to his death and resurrection. Jesus is the first and last in a very specific sense, and different from God being the first and last (eternal.)
I agree with you that Jesus simply being called first and last doesn't prove anything. (or being called Alpha and omega, which he isn't.) Two or three people can be called 'lord' and not be the same one. Two people can be called “first and last” but those words can be used in a very different sense (as they are.)
JESUS
“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)
“I am the First [“First,” Alexandrian Manuscript, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.” (REVELATION 1:17,18)I'm not sure others notice how when the scriptures speak of Jesus being the first, they connect his death to this.
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”So, yes, I agree that two being both called “first and last” in different ways doesn't mean they're the same being.
David,You make many good points, better than when I tried to explain that in one way the words can be a title and the other times descriptions of what they do.
Rev 21:6 Then He said to me, ” It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
In this verse I see “the spring of the water of life” and I picture Jesus who is the living water…..
Many times in the OT (especially in Psalms) in the middle of a sentence or paragraph one person is talking and then it changes to another.
Rev 22:13 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
This appears to have Jesus talking because later it says, “I Jesus….”
However, this verse just doesn't seem to fit into place. Or if this is God talking, then it is in the midst of another as happened in the OT.
the Professor
hi Dbfif God message is given to Christ then toa angel then to anothers angel then to man then to a group of men and then to the all men on earth ,DID THE WORD OF GOD CHANGED?not to me
IS THE WORD OF GOD LESS IMPORTANTE ?not to me
GOD IS NOT A GOD OF DESORDER BUT ORDER AND WISDOM,
SO HE HAS MAKE SURE THAT HIS WORDS STAY IN THE SPIRIT THE SAME.
2Sa 6:7 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
God can protect what is his.we need God to protect us.
WE JUST HAVE TO LOVE TRUTH TO ITS FULL EXEND TO KNOW.Pierre
Pierre,I agree that it doesn't matter that God gave it to JC, etc.
What does matter is that translators have added as someone pointed out to promote a Trinitarian idea….especially with this Alpha and Omega phrase.
Look at the confusion that it is causing and who wins when he can cause dissention and confusion?
If it is a title as someone is saying and that this title can apply to anyone, then it doesn't matter. But, if you try to apply the title to one and only one individual then there is a problem. First and last could apply to both God and Jesus as another explained.
Maybe God allowed this to be tampered with to test our “faith” and “knowledge” of Him?
The Professor
DBFthink abode it ,the Jews say Christ are looking in the scriptures believing that they will be save by doing so,in a way that it is the knowledge in the scriptures who saves,
and that is the wrong,so say Jesus.the base of salvation is found in scriptures ,but only God gives understanding of truth,it is his.
but the scriptures also tell you who you should be to recieve the understanding.now this is key.
it also does not matter how men have twisted the word of God ,God will make sure that if you are in the right mind he will give all the understanding you need to saved.
Pierre
Pierre,
Mat 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Jhn 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Jhn 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have “words” of eternal life.
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega and God created the alphabet.
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 28 2010,11:24) Pierre, Mat 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Jhn 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Jhn 6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have “words” of eternal life.
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega and God created the alphabet.
The Professor
DBFwhat is a righteous man
Pierre
Pierre,
Righteous is doing “right” or being correct.
A righteous man is one who does the will of God.
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
This is right and being righteous.
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 28 2010,11:43) Pierre, Righteous is doing “right” or being correct.
A righteous man is one who does the will of God.
Jhn 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
This is right and being righteous.
The Professor
DBFyes that s correct but not completed;Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Jn 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Jn 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
Jn 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”Pierre
Pierre,
Jhn 3:34 “For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
Jhn 3:35 “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
So, whether or not Jesus is the A & O or God is the A & O it is still “All in the Family”.
The Professor
Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 28 2010,17:04) Pierre, Jhn 3:34 “For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
Jhn 3:35 “The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.
So, whether or not Jesus is the A & O or God is the A & O it is still “All in the Family”.
The Professor
DBFyou right but the truth is that it could be said for both,God and Christ in there own right.
Pierre
Quote (Baker @ Aug. 25 2010,11:10) My understandinmg is that God is a title and many in Ancient times were called God. That takes nothing away from the Almighty Jehovah God…. I still don't understand though that Jesus is called the Almighty.
Hi Irene,Your understanding is scripturally correct. Jesus is NEVER called the Almighty in any scripture. In fact, Jesus calls the only Almighty “my God” five times in Revelation.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (david @ Aug. 22 2010,10:33) I'm not sure others notice how when the scriptures speak of Jesus being the first, they connect his death to this.
Hi David,You are not alone. Not only have I noticed this, but I have also already explained this to both SF and the Professor.
When Jesus is called the first and the last, it is in referrence to something specific. When Jehovah is called the first and the last, it is in referrence to EVERYTHING. He is the first that ever existed and He will be the last.
This statement in Rev mirrors what He said in Is 43:10. He said no god was formed before Him (I am the first), and none will exist after him (I will be the last).
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2010,11:00) Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2010,10:33) I'm not sure others notice how when the scriptures speak of Jesus being the first, they connect his death to this.
Hi David,You are not alone. Not only have I noticed this, but I have also already explained this to both SF and the Professor.
When Jesus is called the first and the last, it is in referrence to something specific. When Jehovah is called the first and the last, it is in referrence to EVERYTHING. He is the first that ever existed and He will be the last.
This statement in Rev mirrors what He said in Is 43:10. He said no god was formed before Him (I am the first), and none will exist after him (I will be the last).
mike
Mike,
About time you returned,
Wow so are you accepting that Jesus is the first and the last?
because what you just stated, you have never mentioned within our debate.werent these your claims?
Mike said:
“Jesus isn't called the Alpha and Omega ever.”
“I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT AGREE THAT JESUS IS REFERRED TO AS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA ANYWHERE IN REVELATION!”David agrees that Jesus is called the first and the last, which was my very first statment within our debate.
It streched into a alpha and omega debate.Just saying,
Did you change your mind?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,19:03) Mike,
About time you returned,
Wow so are you accepting that Jesus is the first and the last?
because what you just stated, you have never mentioned within our debate.werent these your claims?
Mike said:
“Jesus isn't called the Alpha and Omega ever.”
“I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT AGREE THAT JESUS IS REFERRED TO AS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA ANYWHERE IN REVELATION!”David agrees that Jesus is called the first and the last, which was my very first statment within our debate.
It streched into a alpha and omega debate.Just saying,
Did you change your mind?
Hi Dennison,No, I didn't “change my mind” about this, although as I learn more about the scriptures, I have in the past altered my understanding of them.
It seems to me that David is saying the same thing I told you in our debate………that whenever Jesus is the “first” or the “last”, it is in specific referrence to something. He is not simply “the first and the last” of EVERYTHING IN GENERAL. That title goes to Jehovah alone, along with the “Alpha and the Omega” and the “beginning and the end” and “God Almighty”.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2010,05:55) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,19:03) Mike,
About time you returned,
Wow so are you accepting that Jesus is the first and the last?
because what you just stated, you have never mentioned within our debate.werent these your claims?
Mike said:
“Jesus isn't called the Alpha and Omega ever.”
“I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT AGREE THAT JESUS IS REFERRED TO AS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA ANYWHERE IN REVELATION!”David agrees that Jesus is called the first and the last, which was my very first statment within our debate.
It streched into a alpha and omega debate.Just saying,
Did you change your mind?
Hi Dennison,No, I didn't “change my mind” about this, although as I learn more about the scriptures, I have in the past altered my understanding of them.
It seems to me that David is saying the same thing I told you in our debate………that whenever Jesus is the “first” or the “last”, it is in specific referrence to something. He is not simply “the first and the last” of EVERYTHING IN GENERAL. That title goes to Jehovah alone, along with the “Alpha and the Omega” and the “beginning and the end” and “God Almighty”.
peace and love,
mike
Ok great lets talk about that in our debate =)Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 31 2010,12:49) Ok great lets talk about that in our debate =)
Ok, I finally posted.mike
To All………….Jesus is he First man raised to eternal life and the Last raised to eternal life will be Just like him so in this sense he is the first and the last, Jesus (NEVER EVER) created any thing, only GOD the Father is the Creator (ALONE and BY HIMSELF)>. He gives (HIS) Glory to (NO) Man , Jesus is son of man. He is a son of GOD the same way all true Christians are by way of adoption by GOD the Father through receiving of the Holy Spirit, God ALONE is the CREATOR of (ALL) creation. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 01 2010,18:03) To All………….Jesus is he First man raised to eternal life and the Last raised to eternal life will be Just like him so in this sense he is the first and the last, Jesus (NEVER EVER) created any thing, only GOD the Father is the Creator (ALONE and BY HIMSELF)>. He gives (HIS) Glory to (NO) Man , Jesus is son of man. He is a son of GOD the same way all true Christians are by way of adoption by GOD the Father through receiving of the Holy Spirit, God ALONE is the CREATOR of (ALL) creation. IMO peace and love to you all………………………………….gene
Gene,
Prove that Jesus did not create anything pleaseSF…………I was speaking to the fact about Jesus being the (First) and he (Last) what it meant, That he was the first from mankind to make it into the kingdom of GOD and the Last will be Just like him. And i have already proved Jesus created nothing because GOD said He did and He did it (ALONE and BY HIMSELF). That alone should be proof enough. IMO
peace and love…………………………..gene
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