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Camellia.
God obviously did not want all flesh to die through the war of man against man.
This is the reason why that war shall be cut short.
Only Christ will destroy all the cities of the nations.
That is what His 2ndcoming is for.wakeup.
Camillia,
I don’t believe this is the same group.
Why don’t you believe they are the same group?
I believe they are because one of the twelve tribes is removed and another put in its place. Judas was removed from among the Twelve and another was put in his place. I have other reasons but that is one.
Only Christ will destroy all the cities of the nations.
That is what His 2ndcoming is for.Wakeup, Christ will not only destroy the “cities of the Nations” (as you say). Christ will destroy the whole world. 2nd Peter 3 attests to this, as does Revelations, as does all related scripture in the New Testament.
Why do you add your own interpretation?God obviously did not want all flesh to die through the war of man against man.
This is the reason why that war shall be cut short.You claim that God does not want all flesh to die through a final world war, so the war will be cut short.
However, scripture says Christ will come at a time is least expected (“The Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will”), when people are eating, drinking and marrying. Doesn’t sound like a world war to me. Time will be cut short, because if not then even the elect could be deceived.
Perhaps you are up confusing Jerusalem in 70ad with the present?Camellia.
Have a nice rest.Wakeup, years of posting and reading on forums takes its toll. How many years have you been posting on forums? I have been approximately six years, and I am tired of it now.
Why don’t you believe they are the same group?
I believe they are because one of the twelve tribes is removed and another put in its place. Judas was removed from among the Twelve and another was put in his place. I have other reasons but that is one.
Hi Kerwin.
An Interlude
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
The 144,000
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand,
from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.A Multitude from the Tribulation
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying,
“Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
Now, go forward to Chapter 10:8.
Then the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard again speaking with me, and saying, “Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the land.” So I went to the angel, telling him to give me the little book. And he *said to me, “Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.” I took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. And they *said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”
See how the chronological order has changed to the present (and past) right up until today.somehow.
The next chapter (11) is about the two witnesses. I believe this was past.
This was when Jesus took the throne.Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying,
“We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
The next chapter (12) backtracks again to the woman, Christs birth, and Christ being snatched up to Heaven.
It’s almost as if you could take the pages, place them on top of each other, and see each story retold more than once in a different way.
With that in mind perhaps you are correct that the 144,000 and the second uncountable number are the same people?
Hi Camilla,
When Christ returns, as you’d know, the dead saints will be raised, and, together with those saints who are still alive at the coming, those who will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, together they will be taken up in a one time mass event to meet Christ in the clouds.
Result: ALL the saints in Christ are now gathered.
So what is this then ..
Isaiah 11
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
Within the context of this chapter, this occurs AFTER Christ has returned and gathered His saints to meet Him in the clouds .. since the chapter is dealing with the millennial kingdom period ..
So since His saints are already gathered (Christians) .. how is there another gathering taking place? .. taking place on a very unmelted earth at that?
Notice how this other gathering differs from the Christian one?
This group must make their own way to the kingdom .. notice they are obviously still flesh and blood?
Notice there are still nations? .. notice God is going to dry up the rivers & the tongue of the Egyptian sea so this group can go across on dry land LIKE they did when God brought them out of Egypt?
None of this has happened yet!
These are the “lost tribes” being summoned to the millennial kingdom ..
And since only Christian saints were taken up and changed to meet Christ in the clouds, and this group see’s no “supernatural” transformation taking place to their persons but, instead, must embark on a very human journey back to Israel on their own accord!
How can this be possible if the earth is melted at the 2nd coming?
We must always remember, or at least, be aware, that God generalizes all the time ..
Like Gog and Magog for example .. scripture says God will destroy that army with a devouring fire in revelations .. on face value we can say, “well God is going to burn them with fire and that is that” (like 2nd Peter at face value), but that would be inaccurate, even though that is what revelation bluntly states .. you see .. God is just generalizing .. how do we know? ..
Easy .. because in Ezekiel ch 38, we find out God doesn’t just burn them with a devouring fire.. He first causes a great earthquake .. He causes that army to turn against each other .. then He rains down an overflowing rain .. then hailstones .. then .. fire and brimstone!!
So revelations left out all these details and merely generalized .. and unless one took note, and read it for themselves, they would vehemently disagree and say, “No, no, God just burns them up and that is that!!”
Generalizing .. just like 2nd Peter is doing.
Just something for you to ponder on.
camillia/devo
Ac 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Ac 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Ac 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?
Ac 2:9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Ac 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome
Ac 2:11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”fulfillment of Isaiah 11
Hi Devo,
So God pours out His Spirit on all flesh and draws His faithful OT servants back home and they preach the eternal gospel for 3 and a half years before being killed, and then they are taken up?
Isaiah 11
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
Within the context of this chapter, this occurs AFTER Christ has returned and gathered His saints to meet Him in the clouds .. since the chapter is dealing with the millennial kingdom period ..
Hi Devolution.
Isaiah 11:
The preceding verses (1-10) states:Righteous Reign of the Branch
1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
3 And He will delight in the fear of the Lord,
And He will not judge by what His eyes see,
Nor make a decision by what His ears hear;
4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
5 Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins,
And faithfulness the belt about His waist.
6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7 Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.
10 Then in that day
The nations will resort to the root of Jesse,
Who will stand as a signal for the peoples;
And His resting place will be glorious.This was fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the righteous ruler of those in His kingdom.
Furthermore, Paul clarifies Isaiah 11 as being fulfilled in Christ when he quotes directly from Isaiah, (Romans 15) :12 “There shall come the root of Jesse,
And He who arises to rule over the Gentiles,
In Him shall the Gentiles hope.”
13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.The context of both suggests a coming together through Jesus Christ of both Jew and Gentile, hence the animals also mentioned. Thus, Isaiah is figurative – Paul is explaining. The mystery of God spoken by the prophets was being fulfilled. “The Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel”, (Eph 3:6). There is neither Jew or Gentile for those in Christ, (Rom 10:12, Gal 3:28, 5:6, 6:15). The Wolf (Gentile) now lays with the Lamb among Christians, (Christ and the Jews). “For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.” (Eph 2:14).
Ac 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
Ac 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
Ac 2:7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
Ac 2:8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?
Ac 2:9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Ac 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome
Ac 2:11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”fulfillment of Isaiah 11
Terraricca, Amen.
Good work Devo.
Ha ha. Hi Nick. Your agreement with Devolution is fascinating…..
Don’t you also still believe in “eternal conscious torment”? Or have you changed your view on that…
What did the earliest church believe?
The following post is taken from here:
http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/early-fathers-their-eschatology-71927/Clement
Bishop of Rome, Italy
(Died around 99 A.D.)1 Clement
Chapter XXXIVHe forewarneth us saying, Behold, the Lord, and His reward is before His face, to recompense each man according to his work. He exhorteth us therefore to believe on Him with our whole heart, and to be not idle nor careless unto every good work. Let our boast and our confidence be in Him: let us submit ourselves to His will; let us mark the whole host of His angels, how they stand by and minister unto His will. For the scripture saith, Ten thousands of ten thousands stood by Him, and thousands of thousands ministered unto Him: and they cried aloud, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Sabaoth; all creation is full of His glory.
There are a few interesting pointers here that help us discern Clement’s end-time views. First, this early writer sees the Lord’s Coming as a judgment day for all. He asserts that “His reward is before His face, to recompense each man according to his work.” This is very similar language to the teaching in 2 Clement only the latter expands the portrayal in more detail. Both seem to describe an all-inclusive judgment. In both letters the writer makes no suggestion of separate judgment days as the Premil theory does. In fact a general judgment is one of the main pillars of Amillennialism.
There is no mention of a thousand years following.
2 Clement
Chapter XVISo, then, brethren, having received no small occasion to repent, while we have opportunity, let us turn to God who called us, while yet we have One to receive us. For if we renounce these indulgences and conquer the soul by not fulfilling its wicked desires, we shall be partakers of the mercy of Jesus. Know ye that the day of judgment draweth nigh like a burning oven, and certain of the heavens and all the earth will melt, like lead melting in fire; and then will appear the hidden and manifest deeds of men. Good, then, is alms as repentance from sin; better is fasting than prayer, and alms than both; “charity covereth a multitude of sins,” and prayer out of a good conscience delivereth from death. Blessed is every one that shall be found complete in these; for alms lightens the burden of sin.
We can see how the writer anticipates the wrath of God falling at the Coming of the Lord. For those not rescued at the day of the Lord it will arrive “like a burning oven” whereupon “the earth will melt, like lead melting in fire.” This is total destruction. As 2 Peter 3 graphically depicts: this world will be dissolved when Jesus comes. In the eyes of Clement a general judgment ensues. He contends: “then will appear the hidden and manifest deeds of men.” This is the day when the secrets of all men are fully and finally manifested.
Chapter XVII
For the Lord said, “I come to gather all nations [kindreds] and tongues.” This means the day of His appearing, when He will come and redeem us—each one according to his works. And the unbelievers will see His glory and might, and, when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprised, saying, “Woe to us, because Thou wast, and we knew not and believed not and obeyed not the elders who show us plainly of our salvation.” For “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle unto all flesh.” It is of the great day of judgment He speaks, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ. The righteous, having succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul, whenever they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable, will give glory to their God and say, “There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart.”
II Clement depicts a climactic Coming of Christ here. He views this event as the end. The writer identifies “the day of His appearing” as “the day of judgment” and describes the righteous and wicked both receiving their just end – the righteous are rewarded, the wicked are destroyed. He reinforces his belief with a most-likely reference to Matthew 25:32, saying, “I come to gather all nations [kindreds] and tongues.” He contends (speaking about the righteous) “the day of His appearing” is the day “when He will come and redeem us.” He equally says of this day (speaking of the wicked): “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be a spectacle unto all flesh” (referring to Isaiah 66:24). This is indeed a general day of judgment.
Ignatius
Bishop of Antioch, Syria
(A.D. 98-117)Ignatius to the Magnesians
11.1
These things I address to you, my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father’s glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.
This text is covered in classic Amillennial language. Ignatius places Christ’s coming “at the end of the world,” thus negating the possibility of a thousand year earthly millennium. In addition, the purpose of His coming is expressly “to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works,” not to reign from some earthly temple made by human hands. Here the whole of Adam’s race is depicted as being judged at the Lord’s return. This ancient writer certainly foresaw an all-consummating return of Jesus.
Polycarp
Bishop in Smyrna, Turkey
(Born AD 68, writes about AD 110, martyred about AD 155)Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
Chapter 2. An exhortation to virtueWherefore, girding up your loins, serve the Lord in fear and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness.
Here again is the general judgment.
Barnabus
Alexandria, Egypt
(Written in A.D. 130-131)The Epistle of Barnabas
Chapter XXI – ConclusionIt is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution. I beseech you who are superiors, if you will receive any counsel of my good-will, have among yourselves those to whom you may show kindness: do not forsake them. For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one]. The Lord is near, and His reward.
The Second Coming is climactic according to Barnabus. It is the end of time and the wicked. It is the end of all rebellion. This is Amil/Postmil language concerning the Second Coming.”
Hi Cam,
How quickly men stopped following the light and instead followed men and their traditions.
These you quote have no recorded miracles at their hands have they?
Were they of the Spirit??
Nick
i know you are one of those scriptures ackers ;so here it is ;
Mt 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
Mt 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mt 25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Mt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
Mt 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
Mt 25:36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
Mt 25:37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
Mt 25:38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
Mt 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
Mt 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Mt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mt 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
Mt 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
Mt 25:44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
Mt 25:45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
Mt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”if you can see truth then you should speak it as well ,
Nick
if you do not know that answer ;then i understand why you only quoted one verse ,and believing that, that only one verse tells all ,
silly thinking is it not ?
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