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Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 04 2007,02:32) Quote (charity @ Dec. 03 2007,02:17) Ken I like your plane avator Who LET THE DOGS OUT!
Ah! Yes there's that “Christian love” NOW that's the way to post.Always saying what you don't mean AND MEANING WHAT YOU DON'T SAY.
That's what makes things “right”, isn't it? Instead of consulting the scriptures that were presented all attack the messenger rather than the message.
If you just speak plainly as the scriptures do then you are “offending” those who reject the meat of the scripture. So one should speak in a coded message so as not to “openly” say what they mean
Jesus said that heaven is made up of those who are like little children. Do children speak in a coated message? Is a child's mind cluttered up with deceiving ways on how to get their message across?Tell it like it is and you are insulting and lacking in LOVE. But HIDE you true message and you are full of love. I call that kind of love something else
Thanks for the example charity!
KenrchI have to agree with you here.
1 Cor 14:8
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 03 2007,17:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 03 2007,17:04) Hi Stu,
If scripture offends you then join the crowd.
It offends us all till we align with it.
God only gives us a short time to respond.
Mercy comes to an end
To be honest Nick, scripture bores me. On purely aesthetic grounds I find it mind-numbing to read and completely inadequate at describing the human condition. Perhaps mind-numbing is the effect the early christians were tying to achieve. Have you tried English-translated Koran? That's even worse! As for the truth of any of it, well the best standards for deciding truth we have in every other area of our lives such as the scientific method or cross-examination of testimony are cast aside in favour of rigid adherence to what you are told in writing.A few paragraphs of the writing of Shakespeare and someone like the physicist Richard Feynman show more insight into what it means to be homo sapiens than I find in the all of the turgid and blinkered world of the christian testament.
By the way, not that I care, but is that 'mercy comes to an end' bit scriptural?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Did you think we were centre stage in life?
?? MAN ??
Did you think it was all about US?If you want soothsayers and human glory then certainly men such as Shakespeare will offer you such lying comforts but they are illusions.
Sorry but it is about the glory of God and the restoration of heaven and earth and the teaching of the other glorious heavenly beings.
We are puny ignorant undeserving wretches who God has mercifully chosen to save from destruction because God wants to use us to teach a lesson to the mighty rebellious angels.
Being incapable of righteousness by ourselves he sent His Son as an anointed man to show us the way to please Him, in his strength and grace. He shamed the mighty ones by His son's success and we can be joined with the Son and placed above angels and given authority in His kingdom.
He made it easy to grasp thus salvation in Christ aware of our weakness and the shortness of our life. For your service here now you can be expected to earn mockery and perhaps death in following the Master and defending the truths of God.
But many see the rewards of pleasing God now with joy and inner peace, and the immortal life with Him after death, as worth dying for having perceived the vanity of human glory.
Stuart…
dear stuart,you have shown me so much, thankyou.
healthy thinking, freedom, reaching all shores, liberty
charity
to cible
Okay…well I AM CONVINCED THAT, YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO SPEACK CLEARLY, AND NOT RIDDLES.
Say as I mean, but first I must be sure who is my friend?
Perhaps some one that is who they say they are?
Some one that frauds his way into my presence, tricking his way, to find out the entire, he desire to know?
In all fairness, I have the right to know whom I wish to share the personal things of my Life with.
And I have the right to investergate? this sell outSanta calus, pirates,faries,Marys, using what ever words I wish to use, and to come against me demanding I be clear with you? sinister
who ever you are, In the poster, beloved, acusser, dreamerMotives
The Motives are what makes a mans action right or wrong
this is… where judgement and justice done, if possible?
charity
Hi Nick
Quote Did you think we were centre stage in life? ?? MAN ?? Did you think it was all about US?
I’m glad you ask this question. We certainly are not the centre of the universe, rather the universe is pretty indifferent to our existence here, or even downright antagonistic. You need a belief like christianity to see yourself as the focus of the universe, a special creation in a specially created environment. What egocentrism!Quote If you want soothsayers and human glory then certainly men such as Shakespeare will offer you such lying comforts but they are illusions.
We I just said they describe the human condition with insight. I’m not sure where you get soothsaying and glory from. The English language is full of quotes from both Shakespeare and the bible. You would think a divine-inspired book would show some brilliance, but Shakespeare’s genius out-writes them all. He wrote with humour and irony, in a manner that makes you pay attention. By comparison, the bible is dull and humourless and should be sold with caffeine tablets.Quote Sorry but it is about the glory of God and the restoration of heaven and earth and the teaching of the other glorious heavenly beings.
This is without foundation in reality. Worse, it is used by zealots to tell others what to do, and usually there is no reason to back it up, other than ‘it is written’.Quote We are puny ignorant undeserving wretches who God has mercifully chosen to save from destruction because God wants to use us to teach a lesson to the mighty rebellious angels.
I think this says more about you than the rest of your fellow humans. What unfortunate history would someone have to have endured to truly believe this? Someone who has had a traumatic time that included suffering an injustice? I concluded a while ago that a big attraction of christianity is that it promises justice in a world where sometimes justice is pretty thin on the ground. Of course it promises justice after death, and I can’t think of another area of human endeavour where such a promise would be taken seriously. People really do believe strange things.Quote Being incapable of righteousness by ourselves he sent His Son as an anointed man to show us the way to please Him, in his strength and grace. He shamed the mighty ones by His son's success and we can be joined with the Son and placed above angels and given authority in His kingdom.
Well if righteousness is paramount for you, you should go for it. I find more joy in helping others (and myself) to find happiness and wonder in the world.Quote He made it easy to grasp thus salvation in Christ aware of our weakness and the shortness of our life. For your service here now you can be expected to earn mockery and perhaps death in following the Master and defending the truths of God. But many see the rewards of pleasing God now with joy and inner peace, and the immortal life with Him after death, as worth dying for having perceived the vanity of human glory.
…or it could all just be pointless hot air motivated by the political ambitions of a few out to deceive, including the gospel writers. Seriously it could…Do you have the critical capacity to tell the difference?
Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 04 2007,03:48) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 04 2007,02:32) Quote (charity @ Dec. 03 2007,02:17) Ken I like your plane avator Who LET THE DOGS OUT!
Ah! Yes there's that “Christian love” NOW that's the way to post.Always saying what you don't mean AND MEANING WHAT YOU DON'T SAY.
That's what makes things “right”, isn't it? Instead of consulting the scriptures that were presented all attack the messenger rather than the message.
If you just speak plainly as the scriptures do then you are “offending” those who reject the meat of the scripture. So one should speak in a coded message so as not to “openly” say what they mean
Jesus said that heaven is made up of those who are like little children. Do children speak in a coated message? Is a child's mind cluttered up with deceiving ways on how to get their message across?Tell it like it is and you are insulting and lacking in LOVE. But HIDE you true message and you are full of love. I call that kind of love something else
Thanks for the example charity!
KenrchI have to agree with you here.
1 Cor 14:8
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
Well thanks WJ! BTW Where is Is1:18? And CB?Quote (Stu @ Dec. 04 2007,16:55) I’m glad you ask this question. We certainly are not the centre of the universe, rather the universe is pretty indifferent to our existence here, or even downright antagonistic. You need a belief like christianity to see yourself as the focus of the universe, a special creation in a specially created environment. What egocentrism!
Likewise you need atheism.You cannot escape the fact that you have a belief too.
But not all beliefs are right.
So how can the universe be indifferent to our existence from an atheist point of view? In fact you must believe that we are the universe itself or part of it.
Don't you mean the rest of the universe?
Stand on the rock, feet planted on earth, let us not be driven hence forth into a kingdom elswhere, eslwhere shall arive on its day.
Life is given gifted, for to care for the gardens, and is stolen exchanged for only promise of things.the fathers lived with only promise, the children are the inherities, of A Land spoiled, and made desolate, and shall they look back in the end of, and see the Man that would not open the doors of hell.
Quote (charity @ Dec. 04 2007,07:42) to cible Okay…well I AM CONVINCED THAT, YOU WOULD LIKE ME TO SPEACK CLEARLY, AND NOT RIDDLES.
Say as I mean, but first I must be sure who is my friend?
Perhaps some one that is who they say they are?
Some one that frauds his way into my presence, tricking his way, to find out the entire, he desire to know?
In all fairness, I have the right to know whom I wish to share the personal things of my Life with.
And I have the right to investergate? this sell outSanta calus, pirates,faries,Marys, using what ever words I wish to use, and to come against me demanding I be clear with you? sinister
who ever you are, In the poster, beloved, acusser, dreamer
Charity Don't you belief by now you should know who beliefs in God or not? Also those that do belief in God should be considered your Brothers and Sisters in Christ and surely a friend. I am surprised how little faith you have in us.Peace and Love Irene
Hi Stu,
Actually christianity is not about egocentrism but death of self.God has a will and it will be done and the question is whether or not we align with it.
If we are found useful in the plan of the Almighty One then we will be rewarded.
If we never find His will we may still find His mercy because He is love.Jesus said unless a grain falls to the ground and dies it remains as a single grain..”
Paul said “it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”
We must decrease and He is us must increase.Stu.
You do not believe because you cannot understand.
You need to be born from above to even grasp spiritual things.
Until that happens, it won't make sense to you.Until you hunger for the truth enough, you shall never receive what is required to see.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2007,17:46) Stu. You do not believe because you cannot understand.
You need to be born from above to even grasp spiritual things.
Until that happens, it won't make sense to you.Until you hunger for the truth enough, you shall never receive what is required to see.
t8 how do you learn things yourself with a mind that is shut tight? I am open to what you write, but I find it totally unconvincing. You dismiss what most of the planet considers to be reality, giving no reason except quoting your christian club rules. Sorry but the way you portray it, your belief really sounds like a little kids' secret club that adults never could possibly understand.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 07 2007,14:20) Hi Stu,
Actually christianity is not about egocentrism but death of self.God has a will and it will be done and the question is whether or not we align with it.
If we are found useful in the plan of the Almighty One then we will be rewarded.
If we never find His will we may still find His mercy because He is love.Jesus said unless a grain falls to the ground and dies it remains as a single grain..”
Paul said “it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”
We must decrease and He is us must increase.
Why does this kind of writing remind me of the scripts of the decidedly B-grade Hammer Horrors I used to watch on TV when I was a kid? 'Him increasing in us' is the kind of line they would have given to one of Dracula's victims. The only difference here is that some people can't seem to tell the difference between fantasy and reality.I think 'death of self' is an excellent reason to condemn the whole christian concept then, despite the almost invisible kernel of 'do unto others' still hidden in there somewhere.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
I agree that following Jesus is decidely illogical but how resilient is logic in the face of death?
But I am old enough to cling to the light God sent in scripture that shines beyond human life.
It is worth it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2007,05:33) Hi Stu,
I agree that following Jesus is decidely illogical but how resilient is logic in the face of death?
But I am old enough to cling to the light God sent in scripture that shines beyond human life.
It is worth it.
Hi NickTo be fair to you, if you set your worldview to the christian frame of reference, then following Jesus is actually quite logical.
However this is the flip side of Pascal's (ridiculous) Wager. What if you are wrong? What if the compromises you have made in your life, that have excluded possibilities because they are unscriptural, is all for nothing? What if putting other people second for the sake of doctrine (as others here certainly do) has just resulted in damaged or ended or never-attempted relationships, and the 'promised' sequence that follows the often narrow life and death of a believer, does not exist?
For me, death means the end. It means the atoms that make up my body and the biochemical pathways that constitute my thoughts and humanity will simply go back into circulation and the only part left of me as a whole will be a trace in others' memories. To be at peace with that prospect is to have a certain future, and I suggest to you that in the total absence of any evidence or as you say logical argument to the contrary, that is what will happen to us all.
Life is too short and valuable to waste on castles in the air.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2007,22:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2007,05:33) Hi Stu,
I agree that following Jesus is decidely illogical but how resilient is logic in the face of death?
But I am old enough to cling to the light God sent in scripture that shines beyond human life.
It is worth it.
Hi NickTo be fair to you, if you set your worldview to the christian frame of reference, then following Jesus is actually quite logical.
However this is the flip side of Pascal's (ridiculous) Wager. What if you are wrong? What if the compromises you have made in your life, that have excluded possibilities because they are unscriptural, is all for nothing? What if putting other people second for the sake of doctrine (as others here certainly do) has just resulted in damaged or ended or never-attempted relationships, and the 'promised' sequence that follows the often narrow life and death of a believer, does not exist?
For me, death means the end. It means the atoms that make up my body and the biochemical pathways that constitute my thoughts and humanity will simply go back into circulation and the only part left of me as a whole will be a trace in others' memories. To be at peace with that prospect is to have a certain future, and I suggest to you that in the total absence of any evidence or as you say logical argument to the contrary, that is what will happen to us all.
Life is too short and valuable to waste on castles in the air.
Stuart
I agree with everything you said Stu, about the consequences of being wrong. Except, the idea of putting people second for the idea of doctrine. I admit this is often what “actually” happens, this is what turns people away from Christianity as it is repulsive.What Christianity really is (and I know all organizations claim their understandings that each conflict, but specificaly just using the teachings of Jesus) is to believe Christ and follow his example. His doctrine is for us to put love first. To God and to each other. This gets alot of lip service and little practical application by “churchianity”.
The things the world hates Christianity for are often things Jesus himself taught against;
Christians are not to be involved in politics. We are not of this world. We have our own King and are just sojourners passing through.
Christians are not to kill or make war.
Christians are to give to those in need even selling their own items to do so or giving the shirt off their back. Most Christians today are greedy engineers fueling the fire in the engine of capitalism.
The list goes on and on. However, this is exactly what Christ said would happen and that many would follow him and yet he will say he never knew them.
Hi Morningstar
Quote What Christianity really is (and I know all organizations claim their understandings that each conflict, but specificaly just using the teachings of Jesus) is to believe Christ and follow his example. His doctrine is for us to put love first. To God and to each other. This gets alot of lip service and little practical application by “churchianity”.
Did Jesus say it or Paul invent it, the command to hate ones family in order to follow Jesus?Quote The things the world hates Christianity for are often things Jesus himself taught against;
Christians are not to be involved in politics. We are not of this world. We have our own King and are just sojourners passing through.
That is why christian fundamentalists cannot be trusted. Their loyalties do not reside with their fellow humans. To claim your own king is a kind of treason. I would add it is a delusion.Have you come across this site before? (I don’t endorse it myself):
http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/about.php
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 09 2007,17:34) Hi Stu,
Why do you hate the God you do not believe in?
Hi NickI think it is important for people to have the maximum information about the things they hold dear so the decisions they make about their lives are done in as full an awareness as possible. Lots of christians don't know that creationism (or its evolved version, intelligent design) has no basis whatsoever in science. They think that there is some well-known deficiency that makes evolution by natural selection wrong. Those who perpetrate this view deserve to be called the liars that they are. Lots of believers are unaware of the lack of consistency that must arise in a literal scriptural interpretation, and some don't realise how different the OT and NT gods are or how murderous and generally dispicable the OT one is in particular.
I don't believe any of it is true. I think the OT god in particular is the most detestable fictional character in all history.
See the thread on 'why all the killing?' for more.
Stuart
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