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A debate for WJ and myself, which can be opened up upon any one person declining or ending the debate. Otherwise it is T8 & WJ only.
=======================================WJ, your doctrine of the triune God should mean that you and other Trinitarians call God “THEM” and “THEY”. The reason of course is that when we say “HIM” we refer to a person, not the nature or substance. e.g., when people refer to me as HIM, they are not talking about my flesh nature, but are referring to me as a person.
Now you say God is 3 persons 1 substance, so if you pray or refer to God, you are talking about 3 persons which means that in proper English, you should be praying to THEM, and when you mention GOD, instead of saying HIM, you should say “THEM”.
So how come you do not have enough faith in your own doctrine? Because you and most Trinitarians refer to God as HIM, and HIS which is in line with what we believe, which is there is one God the Father, and we rightly refer to him as him and not them.
So I would like to ask why you do not refer to God as they/them when you should according to your doctrine and the English language. Knowing that you will come up with excuses to try and explain your way out of this dilemma, I would further like to debate any excuses you provide for not following your own doctrine in this matter.
So let’s get started.
Why do you not call God, THEM or THEY as your doctrine dictates?WJ, feel free to admit defeat with this debate.
Or feel free to say you will give a reply, when you have some time on your hands.Quote (t8 @ Mar. 01 2011,03:07) WJ, feel free to admit defeat with this debate.
Or feel free to say you will give a reply, when you have some time on your hands.
t8Did you have a time line?
No admitting defeat, I will answer when I feel like it unless you have to have an answer in a certain time frame.
I am busy at work at the moment and haven't recently had as much time to post.
My work comes in spurts sometimes so I have to go with the flow.
WJ
Take your time WJ.
I asked 2 questions and you have now answered which option you will choose. You didn't need to ask if I have a timeline. We all do. You only needed to say which option it was.
Thanks.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2011,04:13) Rules:
A debate for WJ and myself, which can be opened up upon any one person declining or ending the debate. Otherwise it is T8 & WJ only.
=======================================WJ, your doctrine of the triune God should mean that you and other Trinitarians call God “THEM” and “THEY”. The reason of course is that when we say “HIM” we refer to a person, not the nature or substance. e.g., when people refer to me as HIM, they are not talking about my flesh nature, but are referring to me as a person.
Hi t8First of all Trinitarians believe the Father, is a person and Jesus is a person but are of the same kind “God”.
Once again if I say him how do I know that “him or he” is a human or a dog? Unless I “identify” the nature of the one I am referring to then I could be talking to anyone.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2011,04:13) Now you say God is 3 persons 1 substance, so if you pray or refer to God, you are talking about 3 persons which means that in proper English, you should be praying to THEM, and when you mention GOD, instead of saying HIM, you should say “THEM”.
Well let’s see how your logic works for you.WHEN YOU GO TO GOD DO YOU GO TO HIM WITHOUT GOING TO JESUS OR WITHOUT THE HOLY SPIRIT?
SO WHY DON’T YOU SAY I AM GOING “TO THEM” TO FELLOWSHIP WITH THEM SINCE OUR FELLOWSHIP IS WITH THE FATHER, SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2011,04:13) So how come you do not have enough faith in your own doctrine? Because you and most Trinitarians refer to God as HIM, and HIS which is in line with what we believe, which is there is one God the Father, and we rightly refer to him as him and not them.
And here is the hypocrisy of your accusation and claim…WHEN GOD SPEAKS TO YOU DO YOU SAY “THEY” SPOKE TO ME, IF NOT WHY NOT?
DOES GOD SPEAK TO YOU WITHOUT JESUS OR THE HOLY SPIRIT?
REMEMBER T8 YOU SAY THAT ALL THINGS COME THROUGH JESUS SO HOW IS IT YOU DO NOT INCLUDE JESUS WHEN YOU SAY GOD SPOKE TO YOU?
IF SO HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE IF IT IS THE FATHER, JESUS OR THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKING?
DO YOU SAY THE FATHER SPOKE TO ME WITHOUT THE SON OR HOLY SPIRIT TODAY?
WHEN YOU SAY THE LORD (Remember Jesus is our one Lord, right?) SHOWED ME THIS OR THAT, WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? IS IT THE FATHER, JESUS OR THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT SHOWED YOU THIS OR THAT AND IF THEY ARE IN HARMONY AND DO NOTHING WITHOUT THE OTHER (WHICH THEY DO) THEN WHY DON’T YOU SAY “THEY SHOWED ME THIS OR THAT?”
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2011,04:13) So I would like to ask why you do not refer to God as they/them when you should according to your doctrine and the English language. Knowing that you will come up with excuses to try and explain your way out of this dilemma, I would further like to debate any excuses you provide for not following your own doctrine in this matter.
Ha Ha The dilemma is with you unless you can tell me the difference in the three when God works or speaks or acts on your behalf.Why don’t you say “THEY told me this or that” or “THEY led me here and there” or “I trust in “THEM” and their word”?
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 20 2011,04:13) So let's get started.
Why do you not call God, THEM or THEY as your doctrine dictates?
Are you sure you want to start since your doctrine also includes a Trinity and since you cannot tell the difference in the three by their nature or when they speak to you? Since all things come through Jesus by the Spirit, why do you not say they or them? Could it be that in real life you give little credit to the Son and the Holy Spirit?Please answer these questions t8 and then you will see what kind of straw man was blown down!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,08:38) Hi t8 First of all Trinitarians believe the Father, is a person and Jesus is a person but are of the same kind “God”.
Once again if I say him how do I know that “him or he” is a human or a dog? Unless I “identify” the nature of the one I am referring to then I could be talking to anyone.
WJ.Let's use your sentence and replace the persons to remove any emotional baggage.
First of all Trinitarians believe Adam, is a person and Eve is a person but are of the same kind “Man”.
OK, that works.
Once again if I say him how do I know that “him or he” is a human or a dog? Unless I “identify” the nature of the one I am referring to then I could be talking to anyone.
Easy, when you say Adam you are referring to a specific human. When you say adam you are referring to mankind.
However lets give an example of your point. Imagine you know a 'Fido'. It could be a person, dog, or whatever. But if you had a dog called Fido, then the context would be your dog, unless there was a competing Fido, say a person you knew. In that case you would need to identify which one by making reference to the kind. E.g., Fido the dog, or Fido the human.
Now, when we see God in scripture, most of the time it is talking about the Father. E.g., “to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.”
You see the Father is the default God in scripture unless otherwise specified.
For the fewer other times when theos/elohim is being used to identifying another, then it gives a context. E.g., it identifies Satan/men/angels/idols specifically.
So to sum up, if you have a person in your life called Sam, then when people mention Sam it will usually be the one you know, and if it is not, then people will identify that Sam first to avoid confusion. E.g., a guy called Sam at work…
Scripture is like that too.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 12 2011,01:46) Thanks for your reply WJ. I will address each point or each point worthy of a reply in due time.
You are welcome t8.Worthy of reply? Ha Ha! Does that mean you will not answer the questions after that huge lecture about those on this board not answering questions?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,08:38) WHEN GOD SPEAKS TO YOU DO YOU SAY “THEY” SPOKE TO ME, IF NOT WHY NOT? DOES GOD SPEAK TO YOU WITHOUT JESUS OR THE HOLY SPIRIT?
REMEMBER T8 YOU SAY THAT ALL THINGS COME THROUGH JESUS SO HOW IS IT YOU DO NOT INCLUDE JESUS WHEN YOU SAY GOD SPOKE TO YOU?
IF SO HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE IF IT IS THE FATHER, JESUS OR THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKING?
DO YOU SAY THE FATHER SPOKE TO ME WITHOUT THE SON OR HOLY SPIRIT TODAY?
Revelation 1:1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,I have had visions in the past and how these were delivered I do not know. E.g., if the final messenger was an angel, I have no detail regarding that. But I know when God gives a vision, dream, etc.
When I pray to God, I do so in Jesus name.
I know once when I cried out to God, that Jesus came to me and I felt ashamed of my condition. I didn't see him, but I was like a dead man on the floor.
The point here WJ, is that God sends messengers all the time. The eternal God doesn't shake my hand in person because he doesn't have a hand and I am a creature and he is an eternal Spirit. I am quite aware of the impossibility of seeing God with my eyes and touching him with my hands. God is invisible and if I see anyone, it will be Christ, the image of God or an angel.
So it is with God WJ, and there is a list of command.
In the physical realm WJ, you might hear a president or minister enact a law, and if you violated that law, it would likely be officials who administer that law that you would deal with. I doubt that the president himself would chastise you for the law that you broke.
So yes WJ, I obviously am aware of a chain of command. But I am aware that it is God who I should be addressing and not the official that he may have sent. If there is dialog, there is obviously the room for a mediator, but the mediator is enabling communication between the 2 parties, God and man in this case.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2011,09:53) Worthy of reply? Ha Ha! Does that mean you will not answer the questions after that huge lecture about those on this board not answering questions?
Usually wouldn't say such a thing WJ, but for you I think it is necessary.To clarify, there might be points you make that are a waste of time for me to answer and also for you. Of course if I do not give an answer to something and you feel I should then you can say so.
I am actually just giving leeway rather than making the promise of addressing every point. If I did that, then you might resort to getting legal when you realise you are losing the debate.
I don't want a repeat of what happened when you and Isaiah got legal with me for not answering every question immediately that Isaiah asked in another debate. Remember that? I took my time answering because I felt that each question was going to take a long post to answer and didn't want to put all that information in one post. Then you and Isaiah accused me of this and that. The behaviour was truly shameful and I am just being wise by making such a statement now. It is called foresight.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,08:38) Ha Ha The dilemma is with you unless you can tell me the difference in the three when God works or speaks or acts on your behalf. Why don’t you say “THEY told me this or that” or “THEY led me here and there” or “I trust in “THEM” and their word”?
Quite simple WJ. There is one mediator between God and man.It is God who we are being connected to. It is the fear of man that needs to talk to others including saints, Mary, etc. If we have strong faith, we know we can come boldly before the throne of God and talk to God.
Someone called Jesus good once, and he replied that there was only one who was good. You see WJ, talking to God is a privilege because we can talk with the one who all good originates. Jesus and Michael's angels do God's will.
And I can talk to God. I don't have to talk to Michael for example and ask him to pass a message on.
What I believe is in line with God being a HIM.
But you believe in THEM. You are confused in this matter and trying to pass that confusion on to me is not working.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 12 2011,08:38) Are you sure you want to start since your doctrine also includes a Trinity and since you cannot tell the difference in the three by their nature or when they speak to you? Since all things come through Jesus by the Spirit, why do you not say they or them? Could it be that in real life you give little credit to the Son and the Holy Spirit?
I am not confused in this matter. I do not pray to a substance and when I converse with you WJ, it is not your substance that I am communicating with. No it is you the person, the one who is identified as being uniquely you.I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. It is the Father whom I communicate with. Jesus taught me that in scripture.
Matthew 6:9
9 “This, then, is how you should pray:“‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name…
But you somehow have taken poetic license and have decided that it is OK, to pray to a Trinity.
Jesus Christ did not teach that. That is a foreign teaching.
WJ, where is your faith in your own understanding. You try to paint the picture of being right, yet you fail the last step. You do not address your God as THEM, THEY.
So deep down you must know it is wrong. Otherwise you should do it as a demonstration of your own teaching.
This seems to be a case of you saying “do what I say, don't do as I do.”
BUMP for WJ.
He complained in the Hot Seat forum that I was being hypocritical for not answering all his questions.
I said that I am very happy to answer any of his questions and that he should highlight any I may have missed answering.
While he brought this up, I thought he should be reminded of this debate that is awaiting his response.
Feel free to concede, reply, or say you need more time WJ.Hi t8
Like I said, I wasn't the one crying about others not answering questions. I merely have pointed out that you guys accuse others for not doing what you do not do yourselves.
WJ
WJ, you complained in the Hot Seat forum that I was being hypocritical on this.
That is the point I was making.
But I wasn't being hypocritical on this. The exact opposite.I think you owe me an apology. But I will leave that up to your conscience as to whether you give me one.
Quote (t8 @ April 01 2011,17:33) Back to the topic. Why do you not call God, THEM or THEY as your doctrine dictates?
Why do you not say they spoke to you or they did this or that in your life?You see how your straw man burns to the ground?
WJ
Quote (t8 @ April 01 2011,17:32) WJ, you complained in the Hot Seat forum that I was being hypocritical on this. That is the point I was making.
But I wasn't being hypocritical on this. The exact opposite.I think you owe me an apology. But I will leave that up to your conscience as to whether you give me one.
Sorry you can't see what I am talking about t8.WJ
WJ, this debate is centred around this question.
Why do you not call God, THEM or THEY as your doctrine dictates?
You have failed to provide an answer, so is it time for me to turn the debate off or allow others to participate and proclaim that you lost?
So far you are on the losing end here, because you have avoided the question and as KJ rightly said in another topic:
The whole thing is stupid! If someone doesn't answer a question the whole internet world can see it if it is running and hiding.
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