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t8,
I can't fault you for thinking like a man since you are a man. We have to remember that spiritual truths are spiritually appraised. You believe that the Son must be younger than the Father because that is always the case in the physical world but it is always the case in the physical world that the fathers did not eternally exist too. You apply the physical to the spiritual only in part.I would really like for you to see what I see but it is difficult with words. I have a picture that you can go to in order to see a picture of something physical that might help but I would like you to look at it with an attitude of trying to understand, ok?
Please look at this with a spirit of understanding and not a spirit of automatically dismissing the principle:
http://www.google.com/imgres?….rl=http
Look at the one cell with two things in it, that represents a cell with the potential to reproduce.
The next picture of one cell with four things in it represents a cell that is in the first phase of reproducing.
The third and fourth picture of one cell shows the cell in the third and fourth phase of reproducing.
The last picture shows the begettal of the reproduction. It shows a second cell exactly like the first cell. The two cells represent a first cell and a second cell (a father cell and a son cell). The father cell is exactly like the son cell in nature and attributes and identity-both are identified as the same type of cell except that one is father and one is from the father, that one is the son.If the Heavenly Father was always the Heavenly 'Father' then within Him there existed an offspring sort of like there being an offspring within the cell in that second, third, and fourth picture. If the Heavenly Father was not at one time a 'father' then that is sort of like the first cell with only the potential of being a father.
I believe He always was a father and you argue that He isn't. You have admitted that you don't know if He were a father always or not and so it is a possibility that He always was a father and not just a potential father.
I believe that the term 'God' capital 'G' can only refer to a being that existed eternally and an eternal existence is an attribute of the nature of that being. I further believe that a being that is said to have the exact representation of that nature and called God would have to be eternal or they wouldn't have the exact representation of that nature of God. Jesus has the exact representation of the nature of God the Father. Even earthly sons are the exact representation of their father's nature. This is scriptural!
Heb 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
LU, the physical is often a representation of the spiritual.
Physical water represents the Spirit and in particular the River of Life.
Books and scrolls have heavenly equivalents, or should I say that Earth has an equivalent.
Jesus comes back on a horse, or some kind of transport right.A Father and son on earth is part of us understanding the Father and son of God.
It would not be radically different, just much limited when talking about 2 different realms.
The son came from the Father. Jesus said if you do not believe that I came from God then you don't believe Jesus testimony and you instead believe a lie and the Father of lies is the Devil. So what subtle lie does the Devil try to convince Eve and other weak vessels that give him an ear? Is it that Jesus is God, thereby denying subtly that he came from God. And to eternally proceed from God is to not come from God, rather it seems more like conjoined twins where they are joined together and are 2 persons or identities. The sun rays that proceed from God are perhaps more like the Spirit, but not the son who is in bodily form.
Saying that I am thinking physically is not going to change me from believing things that are not even spiritual or contradicts that which is written.
I could say to you that denial of the 60 foot pink fairy is physically minded too.
LU, do you believe that God and the Lamb are 2 different beings as mentioned in the Book of Revelation. Or are they somehow both God according to your doctrine?
t8-
You said:Quote The son came from the Father. Jesus said if you do not believe that I came from God then you don't believe Jesus testimony and you instead believe a lie and the Father of lies is the Devil. So what subtle lie does the Devil try to convince Eve and other weak vessels that give him an ear? Is it that Jesus is God, thereby denying subtly that he came from God. And to eternally proceed from God is to not come from God, rather it seems more like conjoined twins where they are joined together and are 2 persons or identities. The sun rays that proceed from God are perhaps more like the Spirit, but not the son who is in bodily form. I agree with this and my example of cell life shows one cell asexually reproducing to beget another cell exactly like the parent cell. This is not an example of co-joined twins but it is an example of one identical cell coming from another.
Here is that example again:
http://www.google.com/imgres?….rl=httpI have labeled the two cells 'a' and 'b' to help you follow along easier:
The cell (b)
that came from another cell (a)
was within the other cell (a)
before it (b) was separated from the other cell (a)
and was identical to that other cell (a).
Can you agree with this statement?Quote (t8 @ Oct. 11 2012,06:23) LU, do you believe that God and the Lamb are 2 different beings as mentioned in the Book of Revelation. Or are they somehow both God according to your doctrine?
t8-
The Lamb/the Son/the only begotten God is a theos
The God/the Father is a theosTwo perfect beings/presences who are each a theos acting together as one most high authority. One theos comes from the other, both identical yet one coming from the other as a son comes from a father in an asexual reproductive way.
The Son was eternally within the Father before coming from the Father as His only begotten son/offspring on day one of creation. This is my understanding. The Father theos begat the Son theos, in other words. Both identical in attributes/nature.
t8, you seem to understand that the Son comes from the Father but do you understand the Son coming from the Father in an asexually reproductive manner?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,04:53) t8-
You said:Quote The son came from the Father. Jesus said if you do not believe that I came from God then you don't believe Jesus testimony and you instead believe a lie and the Father of lies is the Devil. So what subtle lie does the Devil try to convince Eve and other weak vessels that give him an ear? Is it that Jesus is God, thereby denying subtly that he came from God. And to eternally proceed from God is to not come from God, rather it seems more like conjoined twins where they are joined together and are 2 persons or identities. The sun rays that proceed from God are perhaps more like the Spirit, but not the son who is in bodily form. I agree with this and my example of cell life shows one cell asexually reproducing to beget another cell exactly like the parent cell. This is not an example of co-joined twins but it is an example of one identical cell coming from another.
Here is that example again:
http://www.google.com/imgres?….rl=httpI have labeled the two cells 'a' and 'b' to help you follow along easier:
The cell (b)
that came from another cell (a)
was within the other cell (a)
before it (b) was separated from the other cell (a)
and was identical to that other cell (a).
Can you agree with this statement?
LU, the whole cell biology lesson is a moot point at best because you are really just talking about nature and we know in nature that Jesus was/is divine and theos. (Although he existed in the form of God…).In identity it is a different story because divinity and god nature comes from the one identified as the Father who is the source of all, even the son.
If you are saying that Jesus is YHWH because he is divine or has God's nature, then you are defining YHWH as meaning divine nature. THe follow on effect of accepting this is you also have to add other beings into your understanding of YHWH.
For a start, we can participate in this nature.
We also will have a body like his, (Jesus).
Further, the Father is the father of all spirits, not Jesus.
Finally, Jesus calls us brothers. That word is usually defined as like kind, (kindred).Your doctrine I believe is wrong and errs with a lack of understanding to the difference between identity and nature. Similarly, this is where Trinitarians also err, and even Oneness errs here too.
If anyone actually accepted your doctrine you would also be responsible for them adding redeemed man to YHWH. Because to say Jesus is YHWH and we are going to be like Christ and be his brother, then it is not a big stretch to say redeemed man is also YHWH.
Stumbing blocks are inevitable and they will trip people up, but woe to the people who lay them. Woe is a serious word. Look it up.
Watch out LU, this is how the Devil works and how he causes divisions which he loves because he can do every evil work where there is division. He starts with a weak vessel and his lies go viral from there. The end result is division and even Jesus said, a Kingdon divided against itself cannot stand. Surely the Devil wants this to happen, why do his bidding? What reward are you expecting from this?
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,05:11) t8-
The Lamb/the Son/the only begotten God is a theos
The God/the Father is a theosTwo perfect beings/presences who are each a theos acting together as one most high authority. One theos comes from the other, both identical yet one coming from the other as a son comes from a father in an asexual reproductive way.
The Son was eternally within the Father before coming from the Father as His only begotten son/offspring on day one of creation. This is my understanding. The Father theos begat the Son theos, in other words. Both identical in attributes/nature.
t8, you seem to understand that the Son comes from the Father but do you understand the Son coming from the Father in an asexually reproductive manner?
Again, you are talking about nature which is not the meaning of YHWH. YHWH is a name or term of identification. It is not a qualification or quality.You can't say that The Devil is YHWH because he is called the God of this age. Likewise you cannot say Jesus is YHWH because he existed in the form of God.
You say one thing, and back it up with an unrelated other thing. You are lacking understanding in such matters. You need to go and spend your money on buying that which is of God and let go this investment that comes from your own understanding.
t8
Quote If you are saying that Jesus is YHWH because he is divine or has God's nature, then you are defining YHWH as meaning divine nature I am defining YHWH as meaning eternal nature…always existing. If the Son was always within the Father, then He too is eternal and YHWH as a name suits Him too as well as the Father even if the Father is the one who brought Him forth.
I believe that the Son was always within the Father and the Father is a being with a Son, not without a Son. So, the concept of God is a being with a second being. To not include the Son in the concept of God would be to not acknowledge the second being of God.
The concept of God is not a being without a second being.
Address this:
I believe that the Son was always within the Father till He beget Him before creation.If He wasn't within the Father always in eternity past till He beget Him before creation, then the Father would not have been the Father always in eternity past.
BTW, the devil is not called the God of this age.
Also BTW, what you call my own understanding is also the understanding of the early church and many Christians throughout the ages.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,04:53) I agree with this and my example of cell life shows one cell asexually reproducing to beget another cell exactly like the parent cell. This is not an example of co-joined twins but it is an example of one identical cell coming from another.
You accuse me of being carnal and then go onto teaching how YHWH is like cell biology.And the worse part is that we are going to be like Christ and even have a body like his. Yet somehow for some reason we are not YHWH, but Jesus is.
Let's call your doctrine the 'Mysterious Binity' okay. I don't want to put YHWH's name into a mocking title, so Mysterious Binity it is.
Now talking about cells and DNA, if we are going to be born of God, then surely we too are going to have the same DNA as God (so to speak) because we will be born of him. So are you looking forward to the day that you become YHWH. This is where your teaching will lead. If not by you, then by some unfortunate soul that happens to be convinced of your doctrine. Hopefully such a person never exists. You do not understand the value of a human soul IMO to be so reckless in your teaching.
When Jesus cast out the demons from a man and cast it into a herd of pigs, Jesus hurt or destroyed the economy of that village because that was a lot of pigs. What was Jesus thinking? Perhaps he was demonstrating the value of a human soul. It is worth more than the economy of that village. Where is your appreciation of value of a human soul. When you teach false doctrine you show your contempt for others and your interest only in yourself.
Isaiah 45:3
“And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, YHWH, which call thee by thy name, am the Elohim of Israel.”So you say this is the Father and the being who was named Yeshua when he came as a man.
Acts 3:13
“The Elohim of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the Elohim of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua”.Okay so now Jesus is the son of YHWH and is also YHWH. Don't ask, the Mysterious Binity is beyond our understanding right?
Yet when you cast light on the subject you find that Jesus is the son of YHWH. Is this not what we are suppose to believe. That he is the son. Son of whom? God. And who is God. Is it not YHWH?
Isaiah 42:1
“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.”Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”Who is Yeshua the servant of?
Further, YHWH has an anointed as recorded in Psalm 2:2.
“The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH, and against his anointed.”And if you don't believe that Jesus is YHWH's annointed, then you disagree with Peter as recorded in Acts 4:26:
“The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against YHWH, and against His Messiah.”Deuteronomy 18:15-19
“YHWH thy Elohim will raise up unto thee a Prophet [Yeshua] from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken.. . .I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. . . . And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”The verse above clearly shows that YHWH will raise up a prophet whom we know as Yeshua the son of God. YHWH is not raising up himself to be a prophet Kathy.
And in case you do not believe that the prophet is Jesus because of your bias for the Mysterious Binity, then this will make it clear.
John.12:49
“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.”So it is the Father who is YHWH. If you replace the word YHWH with Father, the scripture remains intact. If you change it to mean the Father and the Son. It is broken.
Isaiah.53:6, 10 ,12
“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.”Obviously this is talking about two. One is YHWH and the other as we know is Yeshua.
The Old Testament shows up your teaching for what it is and you have the same difficulties that the Trinitarians have in justifying their impossible stance. And like them, you cling to anything that sounds like it might support your view, rather than being like the Bereans who were commended by Paul for testing that which he taught with the scriptures. Your doctrine Kathy does not hold up with the Old Testament's view on YHWH and his annointed. And the New Testament also does not agree with you.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,20:04) I believe that the Son was always within the Father till He beget Him before creation. If He wasn't within the Father always in eternity past till He beget Him before creation, then the Father would not have been the Father always in eternity past.
This is irrelevant because are we not also in his mind. Or did God have a new thought when he thought to create you. Funny that. An all knowing God did not know about you till just before you were conceived. Maybe God is not all knowing but is learning new things and having new thoughts along the way.Kathy, most of your arguments you make can also apply to us, and yet as I said before, if these arguments prove that Jesus is YHWH, then what of us? That is a question that you seem to ignore. Might as well go all the way on this and include us.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 12 2012,20:04) Also BTW, what you call my own understanding is also the understanding of the early church and many Christians throughout the ages.
Um no it is not.They originally believed that Jesus was the son of God and the messiah. They believed that he was the Word, Wisdom, even the Messenger of YHWH. It was in the falling away from truth that men made Jesus God, YHWH, and Jesus mother the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven.
Here is a title you can use if you decide to write a book. “Mystery Babylon, the False Mysterious Trinity, and the New & Correct Mysterious Binity” by Kathy.
The Binity slowly infused itself in Christianity. It was replaced by the Trinity. And now we have at least one person who wants to go back to the says of the Binity.
Whereas, a Berean goes back to the truth, not the traditions of man which lack the power of God.
t8-
Let's address your confusion of what I post, one by one:Quote
You accuse me of being carnal and then go onto teaching how YHWH is like cell biology.Don't make it out to be something other than what it was intended to be…an example of one cell coming from another as an offspring of the other, exactly like the other. Jesus said that the kingdom of God was like a mustard seed…would you accuse Him of being carnal too? What I accused you of was being inconsistent and leaning on the physical to represent the heavenly, locking in the heavenly to follow the understanding of the physical, yet only applying that to the son and not the father. An earthly son comes from his father and has a beginning, so does his father, i.e. his father also had a beginning which you overlook. You can't really use the argument that an earthly son comes from his father and has a beginning, therefore the heavenly son comes from his father and has a beginning too. If you continue that logic, then the heavenly father would have a beginning too because so does an earthly father. The earthly is only a type of the heavenly, keep that in mind.
Quote
And the worse part is that we are going to be like Christ and even have a body like his. Yet somehow for some reason we are not YHWH, but Jesus is.We won't have a body like the one Christ had before He became flesh. We did not eternally exist in a true way within the Father, we existed in an imagined way, in His mind.
You believe that Christ pre-existed, would that make us Christ when we become 'like' Him, according to your logic?
Quote
Let's call your doctrine the 'Mysterious Binity' okay. I don't want to put YHWH's name into a mocking title, so Mysterious Binity it is.No, that's not okay. The unity of God is not about a number but about a unity. Don't make it about a number. Call it the 'unity of God' doctrine if you need a name.
Quote Now talking about cells and DNA, if we are going to be born of God, then surely we too are going to have the same DNA as God (so to speak) because we will be born of him. Actually we are adopted by God by our spirits being regenerated. We will not have the same DNA as God (so to speak) but the only begotten God will. Adopted kids do not carry the same DNA as their adoptive parents. Biology 101
Quote So are you looking forward to the day that you become YHWH. This is where your teaching will lead. If not by you, then by some unfortunate soul that happens to be convinced of your doctrine. Hopefully such a person never exists. You do not understand the value of a human soul IMO to be so reckless in your teaching. You have a misconception and then you build on top of that misconception, therefore the building of thought falls flat. Again, we are adopted, unlike Christ…not the same makeup and cannot become eternal when our original nature had a beginning. You are rather reckless in your Biblical knowledge as to the fact that His children aside from Christ are adopted.
Quote When Jesus cast out the demons from a man and cast it into a herd of pigs, Jesus hurt or destroyed the economy of that village because that was a lot of pigs. What was Jesus thinking? Perhaps he was demonstrating the value of a human soul. It is worth more than the economy of that village. Where is your appreciation of value of a human soul. When you teach false doctrine you show your contempt for others and your interest only in yourself. You haven't proven that I am teaching false doctrine, you have proven that you do not understand the difference between the only begotten son and the adopted sons. If you teach that all sons are the same, Jesus and the rest of us, it is you who is teaching false doctrine, sir.
Quote
Isaiah 45:3
“And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, YHWH, which call thee by thy name, am the Elohim of Israel.”So you say this is the Father and the being who was named Yeshua when he came as a man.
No, I say that one is YHWH the God of gods and the other is YHWH the Lord of lords. In some contexts it is both of them as YHWH.
Quote Acts 3:13
“The Elohim of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the Elohim of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua”.Okay so now Jesus is the son of YHWH and is also YHWH. Don't ask, the Mysterious Binity is beyond our understanding right?
Well, for clarity, Jesus/Yeshua is the Son of YHWH the God of gods and is YHWH the Lord of lords.
Quote Isaiah 42:1
“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.”Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.”Who is Yeshua the servant of?
Yeshua who is YHWH the Lord of lords is the servant of YHWH the God of gods. The Son always has a heart of a servant to the Father, He is a perfect Son, afterall. Solomon was considered a servant to his father David.
Quote Further, YHWH has an anointed as recorded in Psalm 2:2.
“The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against YHWH, and against his anointed.”And if you don't believe that Jesus is YHWH's anointed, then you disagree with Peter as recorded in Acts 4:26:
“The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against YHWH, and against His Messiah.”Again, Yeshua is YHWH the Lord of lords and is anointed to be the Messiah by YHWH the God of gods.
Quote
So it is the Father who is YHWH. If you replace the word YHWH with Father, the scripture remains intact. If you change it to mean the Father and the Son. It is broken.Again, the Father is YHWH the God of gods and the Son is YHWH the Lord of lords. Context will tell you which one is spoken about, one or the other or both as a unity.
Time is gone…till later.
kathi
Quote Again, the Father is YHWH the God of gods and the Son is YHWH the Lord of lords. Context will tell you which one is spoken about, one or the other or both as a unity. WHAT IS “YHWH” STANDS FOR
I MEAN IN YOUR DESCRIPTION .Pierre,
If you want to ask me something, you are going to have to do that in another thread. This one is a closed discussion. Thanks!Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 16 2012,08:41) Don't make it out to be something other than what it was intended to be…an example of one cell coming from another as an offspring of the other, exactly like the other.
Sorry but you say I am carnal and you use the basic physical cell to describe something about God and his son. If you cannot see the irony, then what more can I say apart from this.I was describing to you about how a son has a source, (human father), you then accused me of carnal thinking or being fleshly minded. Even though Jesus also said repeatedly that he came from God.
Yet somehow, cell biology is exempt and makes you spiritual, but looking at the father and son relationship makes me carnal. Okay got it.
Doi you not know that these things are a pattern of the heavenly. If you cannot accept that, then quite the cell biology lesson because you are being carnal by your own standards and God also judges us according to our own measurements. Hence why we shouldn't judge because that judgement becomes a measure against us.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 16 2012,08:41) We won't have a body like the one Christ had before He became flesh. We did not eternally exist in a true way within the Father, we existed in an imagined way, in His mind.
You are wrong.I have said that we will have a body like his.
That is all I said. Simple as that.
Don't complicate things with additions that are not only unnecessary but are also not true.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 16 2012,08:41) Yeshua who is YHWH the Lord of lords is the servant of YHWH the God of gods. The Son always has a heart of a servant to the Father, He is a perfect Son, afterall. Solomon was considered a servant to his father David.
Wake up Kathi.If it says that Jesus is the son or servant of YHWH then that is a true saying. It doesn't mean that he is the son of the OTHER YHWH. We see no such language in the old or new testaments. The Mysterious Binity now includes the OTHER YHWH. How sad and probably offensive too.
YHWH is one elohim.
The fact that you cannot accept that Jesus is the servant of YHWH, and change it to Jesus is the servant of the OTHER YHWH shows that you need to invent more lies to support the previous lie.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 16 2012,08:41) Actually we are adopted by God by our spirits being regenerated. We will not have the same DNA as God (so to speak) but the only begotten God will. Adopted kids do not carry the same DNA as their adoptive parents. Biology 101
And here we go again with the not carnal biology lesson. So long as you don't point to the father son relationship and keep it to the level of cells, then it is spiritual right?However, you still got it wrong anyway. Yes we are adopted or grafted in. But we can participate in divine nature and we are born from above or born of the spirit. And we know that God is spirit.
We will also become like the angels who are the sons of God who came directly from God and not the result of procreation. We too are called sons of God and we are born of him directly.
Have you not heard of the new birth or being born again. Have you not heard that our bodies will be transformed into a body like Christs.
The only old part that remains is our soul. It is our souls that are adopted or saved, because the new spirit comes from God and the body is prepared by him.
Biology 101. A body has DNA. Which usually has a corresponding nature. A spiritual body is given to us. Can't say if it has DNA as such, but needless to say, it is a new body with new nature, and we are called the sons of God too.
Kathi. The more you struggle to save face the more you will sink down into quicksand.
Do you not know that God will give us all things. And if you disagree, then why are we called the sons of God and the children of God. Did it occur to you that we will be his OFFSPRING.
You have failed to prove that Jesus is YHWH. When you are shown that Jesus is clearly the servant of YHWH, you say that he is the servant of the OTHER YHWH.
How silly Kathi. When are you going to stop acting in this way? Admit you have no proof and are acting like a child.
My advice, stop teaching that which you have devised in your own mind. Your judgement will only be harsher. If you don't believe me, then know that it is written that teachers are judged all the more, so we should be very careful about what we teach. You seem to show no remorse or regard here. You are therefore rushing headlong into this harsher judgement by your own decision.
NOTE: I demand an answer to this please.
Which is more accurate to your way of thinking.
1) Jesus is the servant of YHWH.
2) Jesus is the servant of the other YHWH.
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