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t8
Do you now think that YOU too were the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning? I don’t think so. Only the living Word (Jesus) was the eternal life which WAS WITH the Father. Sorry to disappoint you.Read it again:
1 John 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.The eternal life that IS IN believers is not something that can be seen…that life is a continuous state of being given by a person who is THE Eternal Life that was from the beginning. A continuous state of being cannot be ‘seen.’ However, the ONE who was THE Eternal Life from the beginning WAS SEEN. Nice try though. 😉
Do you now think that YOU too were the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning? I don’t think so. Only the living Word (Jesus) was the eternal life which WAS WITH the Father. Sorry to disappoint you.
You’re barking up the wrong tree. The beginning is a starting point and no matter when you obtain eternal life, it doesn’t make you God or eternally generated in the Trinity sense.
You claim to believe this but clearly you do not.
“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
Read what Jesus said. He mentions two.
1) the only true God
2) himself (Jesus Christ) whom the true God has sent
NOTE: Jesus is not 1) he is 2), therefore he is not the only true God. Clear, simple, and in harmony with the rest of scripture.
Clearly you do not believe his words LU. You deny these words of eternal life. You earlier admitted rightly that I indeed do believe this, but clearly you do not. Just saying you do and then preaching your doctrine is like me saying I love someone and then betraying them. Words can be cheap LU, but your words of agreement with these words of Jesus is cheap talk. You only make the appearance of agreement. Clearly from your doctrine you do not believe these words of eternal life. At least be honest with yourself if you cannot be honest with me.
Please select which one is your understanding-
a) Jesus was not God with the God in the beginning.
b) Jesus was God who was with the God in the beginning.I believe that Jesus existed in the form of God, emptied himself, partook of flesh, died, rose from the grave, taken up to be at the right hand of God in the glory that he had with him before the world began.
I would say that a) is closest to my view. I also took into consideration that a) has the first instance of God capitalised, thus implying THE God which Jesus is not.
@t8
you said:
You’re barking up the wrong tree. The beginning is a starting point and no matter when you obtain eternal life, it doesn’t make you God or eternally generated in the Trinity sense.
Correct, someone who obtains eternal life could not be God and must be a creature, no matter when they obtained it. Let me ask you this:
Who is identified as THE Eternal Life in 1 John 1?@t8
you said:Clearly you do not believe his words LU. You deny these words of eternal life.
Actually, I said that I agree with the words. You just misunderstand that Jesus is an always existent offspring part of the one true God who the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to call Him not only Son, but also God, Jehovah, the Eternal Life and Lord of all.
@t8
Word of Melito of Sardis:We are not those who pay homage to stones, that are without sensation; but of the only God, who is before all and over all, and, moreover, we are worshippers of His Christ, who is veritably God the Word existing before all time.
“Touche'” Melito…Melito of Sardis, btw, was martyrd in 177 AD.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/melito.html@t8
Check the last post on the page before this for a question that I would like you to answer. Thanks.Just letting you know that I will still post, but will be slow.
I have pretty much moved on from this whole topic of the Trinity, Binity, etc. Myself and others here have challenged these theologies and found them to be error. We have heard all the arguments and answered them. There is not much interest left and clearly the Trinity and Binity proponents have failed to prove their doctrines are scriptural.
Personally I am now investigating Bible prophecy, a subject I have remained open to for years. I am looking at challenging the many eschatological theories out there. I am excited about this subject right now because I believe this is where God wants me to be in this season.
But as I said, I will still get around to your questions in time.
Thanks for your patience and I thought I had actually answered your questions already. But will take a look.
@t8
You are welcome. Here is the question that I asked on the previous page:Who is identified as THE Eternal Life in 1 John 1?
1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— 3that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4And we are writing these things so that oura joy may be complete.Also, I would appreciate your feedback on what Melito of Sardis said here:
We are not those who pay homage to stones, that are without sensation; but of the only God, who is before all and over all, and, moreover, we are worshippers of His Christ, who is veritably God the Word existing before all time.
Can you say this, t8?
Have fun with prophecy, btw.Who is identified as THE Eternal Life in 1 John 1?
A quick glance of the verse looks like it is speaking of Yeshua before the foundation of the world.
As usual, I would need to dig in and take a look at the verse though.
God gives eternal life, so if he begat another to have eternal life, then he could well be described in those terms.
Eternal life is an interesting concept. We inherit eternal life, but that does not negate that we began life at some point.
God is the only one in existence who has always existed. All life, spirit, and light comes from him originally. Even the son owes his life to God.
@t8
you said:God is the only one in existence who has always existed. All life, spirit, and light comes from him originally. Even the son owes his life to God.
The Father owes His existence to the Son, the Son owes His existence to the Father.
A father without an offspring is not yet a true father. You believe that God always existed but you do not believe that God ‘the FATHER’ always existed, I do. If the Son always existed, He would be called the eternal life that was with the Father from the beginning. As a matter of fact, He is in 1 John 1. He is also called the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end also.
Also, you did not give your thoughts on what this early Christian church father/martyr said. Here it is again:
We are not those who pay homage to stones, that are without sensation; but of the only God, who is before all and over all, and, moreover, we are worshippers of His Christ, who is veritably God the Word existing before all time.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/melito.html
Can YOU say that, t8? I can.
Hebrews 1:5
…having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”…God does not owe his existence to the son. That is self-explanatory. No father’s existence is required by a son. Sure the title ‘father’ becomes enacted with a son, but the Father himself as God is in need of no one for his own existence. This is why he is God. He is the source of all, even his son. If you have a source or a Father, then you are not God. Simple.
This is why we worship God as God because there is no one above him or equal to him. And yes there are many like him, but they are not God, rather images of the invisible God. And this is why we worship/honour the son as the son and the lamb. You have even been told in plain clear language that Jesus is the image of God. You have no excuse.
I can see it now. While the host of heaven proclaim:
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
You pipe up in the background and yell, “Salvation belongs to the Father of God and the Son of God” for God is two persons to you.
Of course this will never happen because those in Heaven speak and proclaim the truth. No evil, lie, error, or false doctrine will be found here.
@t8
“YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
As we have gone over and over, a begettel of a son does not imply the beginning of an existence of a son. A begettal can simply mean ‘to bring forth’ as in birth. Even you existed as a living being before you were begotten from your mother.And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
Is it possible that this father/son relationship is regarding Jesus as He took on flesh and not regarding the original condition of sonship before the cosmos especially since it uses the phrase ‘and again…’? The Heavenly Father is a father to the Son of God AND the Son of man but remember, the Son of man did not exist as ‘the Son of man’ before the cosmos except as a plan for redemption. The Son of God did, however, exist before the cosmos. The Son was a Son in a unique way before the cosmos and then He became a son in another way according to the flesh.you said:
This is why he is God. He is the source of all, even his son. If you have a source or a Father, then you are not God. Simple.
A must answer question for you before I can respond to the rest of your post, t8:
Do you believe the wisdom of God to have a source? In other words, do you believe that God, at one point, did not have wisdom or did the wisdom of God always exist?
As we have gone over and over, a begettel of a son does not imply the beginning of an existence of a son. A begettal can simply mean ‘to bring forth’ as in birth. Even you existed as a living being before you were begotten from your mother.
That is not why I quoted this. But while you are here, it doesn’t say that the son has always been. Far from it.
I quoted it becausey ou were going on about God always being a Father. I simply pointed to a scripture where God says:
“YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
So the point is yes, God became a Father.
Here is your point again that I compared with that scripture.
A father without an offspring is not yet a true father. You believe that God always existed but you do not believe that God ‘the FATHER’ always existed,
Do you believe the wisdom of God to have a source? In other words, do you believe that God, at one point, did not have wisdom or did the wisdom of God always exist?
Wisdom, logos, life, love, charity, mercy, truth, and light are attributes of God. Sometimes they are spoken of in a feminine sense when referring to God’s own attributes.
So when the God of the living begat Wisdom, he became the workMAN at God’s side.
When you understand that, then you can understand the Logos that was with God did not lessen logos that was part of God. As one fire lights another and does not lessen the original fire.
God begats from himself. After all, he is spirit and he is the Father of spirits. He is light, and is the Father of lights.
@t8
you said:
So the point is yes, God became a Father.
He “became” a father to the Son of Man who had a beginning in Mary. He always was a father to the divine Son before the cosmos.
@t8
you said:Wisdom, logos, life, love, charity, mercy, truth, and light are attributes of God. Sometimes they are spoken of in a feminine sense when referring to God’s own attributes.
So when the God of the living begat Wisdom, he became the workMAN at God’s side.
First off, your conclusion about the reason things like wisdom and life are feminine is wrong. Words in the Hebrew are either feminine or masculine, not neuter and their pronouns will reflect that unless the translator changes them because the context is more specific. So, I wouldn’t base your theory on the gender of the pronouns. It is a very weak foundation.
Second of all, at least you can see that there was something in existence eternally that was begotten/brought forth who we call the Son. The ‘wisdom’ that was begotten, eternally existed. You think that the Son was a non-living “attribute” part of God at one time and I think that He was an always existent living “offspring” part of God the Father, and still is, although now begotten. The offspring is much more than a mere attribute. The offspring actually has the same attributes and is not one of the many attributes. The Son is the wisdom and power of God, the truth, the eternal life, etc.
God the Father and the theos who is known as the Son BOTH have the same attributes of a divine, eternal God. Can you show me otherwise?
Notice that wisdom is an attribute like the others mentioned here.
“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
and I find knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil.
Pride and arrogance and the way of evil
and perverted speech I hate.A change in tune. Wisdom is brought forth, something you say that Jesus was and is.
“The Lord possessed[b] me at the beginning of his work,[c]
the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established[d] the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his[e] delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man.In the latter wisdom is the workMAN.
In English we often use the feminine to describe things such as a car for example.
“She can really move” for example. If I said, “He can really move”, even if you are looking at the car, you would think I was talking about a person.
People say that Jesus is not Wisdom because it is described as feminine. My point was to simply say that after being brought forth, Wisdom is the workMAN at God’s side.
If Jesus is Wisdom, then he was brought forth and previous to that, wisdom resided in God as an attribute of God. But just as important is that when wisdom was brought forth, it did not take away from the wisdom that God has. The same line of thinking was espoused by a number of early church fathers with respect to logos. One fire starting another fire.
Anyway, I am not sure that we resolved an earlier question of mine.
You said you agree that you believe John 17:3
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”
I have to call this one out. You do not believe that the Father is the only true God. You believe that he along with Jesus is.
But this one true God spoken of here sent his son.
You clearly do not believe this important scripture and truth that is eternal life.
You should be concerned about this rather than being more concerned about losing this discussion/debate.
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