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In another thread you made a statement that could only mean that there were two eternal Gods. Was this statement incorrect, or is this what you believe now.
Both Father and Son are eternal beings and both have the name Jehovah which appropriately demonstrates the eternalness of existence.
@t8
you said:
Being born means you have a Father/Mother/Parent(s). If Jesus has always eternally proceeded from God, then he is not born, but is a part of God. Such a notion is not taught in scripture.
I never taught ‘eternally proceeding’ either. I teach that He always has been the eternal offspring part of God and has been begotten (brought forth) from God, NOT continually being begotten from God.
Btw, as a side note, being an eternal Father implies that you have an eternal offspring.
In the next post you said:
How many times have I heard this argument. I have lost count.
All firstborn sons of men are not (as you say) always the literal firstborn. However, you can inherit firstborn status if the literal firstborn doesn’t take up this birth right. So who passed up their birthright so that Jesus could be the firstborn of all creation? No one. He was the literal firstborn of all creation.
I was not making an argument that He was not a literal firstborn. My question which you did not seem to understand was to see if you realize that the term ‘firstborn’ does not tell you how long one existed before being born but just tells you that one was the first to be born who already existed alive for a period of time. You seem to use it as proof that one did not exist before one was born. I believe you know better. Do you? My point is that the Son could have existed eternally before He became the firstborn. Get it??
In the next post you say:
Granted being the keyword in your statement.
God also made him Lord and messiah.
There is one God and there is one who God made both Lord and Christ. God granted him to have this life and the privileged positions that he holds. In turn, Christ grants us many things if we are found worthy to obtain them.
Granting the Son to give eternal life to others does not mean that the Son didn’t always exist. It just means that He got His authority to give eternal life to others from His Father.
In the next post you say:
In another thread you made a statement that could only mean that there were two eternal Gods. Was this statement incorrect, or is this what you believe now.
I said there are two eternal beings, one as the offspring part of the other, both go by the name Jehovah because both have the characteristic of eternal existence. Both are in the position of deity to us. Not just one.
Thanks for trying to get clarification.
you said this:
The Word that came from God who is Jesus did not spend 9 months inside God as a developing being. The Word came exclusively from God at some point before the cosmos came into being. That is all we know. I can’t give you a date. There was no calendar before the cosmos that I am aware of.
Must answer question:
Since you can’t tell me when the word came forth before the cosmos, can you tell me how long the word existed before coming forth before the cosmos? If not, then you cannot tell me that the word did not eternally exist. Do you agree?
I never taught ‘eternally proceeding’ either. I teach that He always has been the eternal offspring part of God and has been begotten (brought forth) from God, NOT continually being begotten from God.
Ahem. If he has always been brought forth for eternaity, then it is ‘eternally proceeding’. The eternal offspring of God you are trying to convince us of is a serious contradiction and oxymoron. You are best to say that he has always existed. But he cannot be eternally be the offspring of God without ‘eternally proceeding’.
Being brought forth, given birth, is a moment. After that, the one who is brought forth can exist forever going forward. Suggesting that he was brought forth of God and then he existed after and also before that is an oxymoron. Brought forth is the wrong language to describe someone who has existed for eternity (always) with God.
Btw, as a side note, being an eternal Father implies that you have an eternal offspring.
Ahem. God became a Father when he begat a son. Before he begat a son, was he a Father?
Did God declare that he was a Father before he begat and created anything? And if so, then to whom did he declare this?
Rather, he is a Father and he is eternal. That doesn’t mean the son is eternal.
If I am 50 years of age and I have a son, that doesn’t make my son 50 years old.
I was not making an argument that He was not a literal firstborn. My question which you did not seem to understand was to see if you realize that the term ‘firstborn’ does not tell you how long one existed before being born but just tells you that one was the first to be born who already existed alive for a period of time. You seem to use it as proof that one did not exist before one was born. I believe you know better. Do you? My point is that the Son could have existed eternally before He became the firstborn. Get it??
I already had it before you made this statement. But you didn’t get my point obviously. First-born has in that term the simple meaning of being first born. This is not the same as eternal or existed always because that and first born are opposites in the context that we are discussing. And saying that first-born is not literately first born and doesn’t apply in the case of Jesus means that he took that status from another which we both agree did not happen.
So you are left with Jesus being the literal first-born. Which still means he was born of which you disagree.
Granting the Son to give eternal life to others does not mean that the Son didn’t always exist. It just means that He got His authority to give eternal life to others from His Father.
God changes not LU. You now paint this picture that Jesus is God and yet changes lots. He was granted this and that. Before that he didn’t have this or that. He was granted eternal life within himself, he was made Lord, he became flesh or came in the flesh.
The second God you speak of seems to change a lot. But the real God does not change. Did the Father become a human being. Was the Father begotten. Clearly the Father has not changed.
For us there is one God the Father. God changes not.
For you there are two Gods. One the unchanging one. And the other a changing one. These two Gods that you propose are called YHWH. Your doctrine is quirky. You are in error.
I said there are two eternal beings, one as the offspring part of the other, both go by the name Jehovah because both have the characteristic of eternal existence. Both are in the position of deity to us. Not just one.
Two eternal beings and one God? That means you do teach to as being merged into one God as you denied earlier.
If the two eternal beings are two Gods then you teach 2 Gods.
Either way you have lost. Your doctrine is not true and thus no matter which way you point it, the outcome cannot be true either.
Since you can’t tell me when the word came forth before the cosmos, can you tell me how long the word existed before coming forth before the cosmos? If not, then you cannot tell me that the word did not eternally exist. Do you agree?
Kathi, the term came forth is enough. It is self explanatory. You trying to make it an eternal coming forth is an oxymoron. You are best to say that he always existed but was growing out the side of God, but he became severed when he came to Earth. I don’t know how you can say it. But coming forth or first begotten are not the terms you are after for your view.
@t8
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING. THAT IS CLEAR IN EVERY RESPONSE YOU GIVE ME. LET ME TRY AGAIN TO MAKE IT CLEAR AND SIMPLE.*I DO believe that Jesus is a literal firstborn of God the Father, and the ONLY born of God the Father, as a true uncreated offspring, not as a created offspring.
*I DO believe that the literal firstborn offspring of God the Father existed eternally before He was born and became the ‘firstborn.’ He was NOT in a state of being eternally begotten, whatever that means, but was at one time pre-begotten, then at one point before the cosmos was created-He was begotten.
*The scripture that claims that God changes not is NOT about what you seem to indicate. His unchangeableness is in regards to being the truth and love. He is always truth and love and will always be truthful and loving in all He does. He does however CHANGE His mind on things from time to time because He is always truthful and loving.
*I DO believe that the scriptures speak of the Father as a theos and of the Son as a theos. You have confessed this yourself. Both of them are for us. Any others that might be mentioned as ‘theos’ are not set apart for us and we are not to even mention their names or do anything in their names. We are however supposed to do things in the name of the Father and the Son.
A must answer question for you t8:
Do you believe that there is a theos in scripture that is God the Father? Do you believe that there is a theos in scripture that is the Lord Jesus Christ?I appreciate your time, t8.
I will paste what I posted in another topic, with a few changes. Please take note of my position. It is solid and asking questions like you do only shows you are not reading my position on this, you do not understand what I am saying, or you are deliberately ignoring it.
I believe that there is a devil and that scripture says that Satan is the Devil. I believe that there is also a devil in scripture that is Judas Iscariot and that there are many devils.
Okay, now apply that correct understanding and Greek construct to God and Jesus.
Yes there is one God the Father. Yes Jesus can also be called ‘theos’. So can others too. But there is one God the Father who is actually THE ONE TRUE GOD. There are others who are legitimately called by the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’, including sons of God, angels, and even Satan as the God of this world.
So how many gods are there? Well for us there is one true God. But we also acknowledge as Paul did that there are indeed many gods and many lords. But for us there is one true God the Father. All others are either false or called ‘theos’ because of their office etc.
So take this back to the Devil. How many devils are there? Many. But there is one who is the actual Devil, that is Satan. There are not two who are actually the Devil and there is not one Devil growing out of the other, (a begotten devil subsisting from the parent devil.
Now here is the thing. I have said this many times and in many ways and it is without question, because I simply state what is in scripture. (unless you question scripture). Yet something tells me that later on, you will try to get me to confess to two Gods or two as one God. But this post is sufficient for you. Up to you what you do with this truth. Believe it or reject it and divert away.
@t8
you said:
But he cannot be eternally be the offspring of God without ‘eternally proceeding’.
Not so…an offspring is the child whether born or yet to be born. In both conditions, the child exists. We know that the Son of God was begotten, therefore we also know that the child existed before being begotten. Even you existed for a period of time before you were begotten (born/proceeding from).
The Son of God was not conceived before the cosmos…He simply existed (the Father possessed Him in the beginning of His way, before His works of old Prov 8:22) and at the right time, the Father begat Him before the cosmos was created.
you also said:
Being brought forth, given birth, is a moment. After that, the one who is brought forth can exist forever going forward. Suggesting that he was brought forth of God and then he existed after and also before that is an oxymoron. Brought forth is the wrong language to describe someone who has existed for eternity (always) with God.
Perhaps you have a different definition of ‘begotten’ than I do. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, the only one that the Father brought forth/begat. No other sons of God were begotten as the ONLY BEGOTTEN was…they were created and at one time did not exist. I don’t believe this is so with the ONLY begotten. To truly beget/bring forth a true son, the son had to have existed beforehand so that he could be brought forth/begotten.
@t8
you said:But for us there is one true God the Father. All others are either false or called ‘theos’ because of their office etc.
Are you saying that Jesus is a theos because He was put in that office/position? If so, who is He theos of? Is He not theos of the church? It would be pointless for the Father to put someone in the position of God if He didn’t put Him in a position to be God to someone/something.
Jesus is not called theos as God is. He was made Lord and Christ by God. If mere men can be called theos by their office, then how much more so the son of God who was made both lord and christ.
Your question of who Jesus is God of is irrelevant. It is your question that is demanded by your doctrine. But we do not hold to your doctrine. For us there is one God the Father.
In the same way I do not ask or answer “who were the Pharisees or Judges the God of?”.
Get it now. If not, then this might help.
I also do not ask who Judas was the Devil of, even though he was called ‘devil’.
If you still cannot get it, then your bias has blinded your understanding and I cannot really help you.
You might be able to help yourself. Take some time and answer these questions for yourself. Your doctrine demands it of you.
Who was Judas the Devil of?
Who were the Judges the God of?
Who were the angels the God of?
Take your time, I will be here for years to come (hopefully).
@t8
you said:Jesus is not called theos as God is.
I completely disagree with your statement. I think maybe you confuse the relationship of the persons with the ultimate innate nature required to be God. I believe they both contain the same innate nature (eternal nature) which makes one theos. It is the Father’s position as a father to a son that makes Him the one that gives all things to His Son which btw, the Son made, and that makes Him Lord (owner/master) of all those things.
It is a sad thing to think that you do not know who Jesus is God of. Perhaps we should ask everyone this question. I wonder how many different answers we would get.
you asked:
You might be able to help yourself. Take some time and answer these questions for yourself. Your doctrine demands it of you.
Who was Judas the Devil of?
Who were the Judges the God of?
Who were the angels the God of?
Show me the contexts so that I can better answer you because these would be situationally dependent and not nature dependent as is the case with the Father and Son.
Thanks!It is very stRange; many claiming to worship God ,but at the same time
ignoring His Word;as if it were nothing. Each drunken with own wine.Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father:
***and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father***;
***and who the Father is, but the Son***,
***and he to whom the Son will reveal him***.
NOT TRUE LORD,FOR WE KNOW YOU,AND THE FATHER.Luke 10:23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately,
***Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see***:Luke 10:24 For I tell you, that
***many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see***,
***and have not seen them***;
and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
BUT WE CAN SEE LORD.Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen:
***that ye may know and believe me***,
***and understand that I am he***:
***before me there was no God formed***,
***neither shall there be after me***.
YES LORD,BUT YOU ARE THREE IN ONE.Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD;
***and beside me there is no saviour***.
WE KNOW THAT LORD,BUT YOU ARE STILL THREE IN ONE.THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.
YOU ARE GOD THE FATHER,GOD THE SON,AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.Isaiah 44:6 ***Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel***,
***and his redeemer the LORD of hosts***;
***I am the first, and I am the last***;
***and beside me there is no God***.
WHAT ABOUT GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRT,LORD?( NOT TWO; NOT THREE;(JUST ONE) (NOR NOT EVEN THREE IN ONE).(GOD DOES NOT CONSIST OF THREE PARTS) (FOR HE IS A SPIRIT) ( HE IS ALL IN ALL)(HE IS EVERYWHERE).MAN WITH NO UNDERSTANDING; CREATED SOME DOGMA THAT THEY CAN UNDERSTAND.
THE TRINITY DOGMA WAS ADOPTED FROM EGYPT,AND BABYLON; AND SO ALSO THE FESTIVITIES.
LET GO OF THE SPIRIT OF BABYLON,AND ADOPT THE SPIRIT OF ZION. WALK IN CHRIST,WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD.Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER TWO GODS LORD?OH YES, MANY SAY; THERE IS GOD THE FATHER;GOD THE SON;AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT;THAT’S HOW I WAS TOLD BY MY MASTERS.
YOU MUST HAVE MADE A MISPRINT GOD! I KNOW GOD;NO ONE IS PERFECT.BUT DONT WORRY;WE HAVE CORRECTED IT FOR YOU.
YOUR OLD TASTEMENT, WE CAN NOT USE ANYMORE IN THIS AGE,BECAUSE WE HAVE GONE AHEAD YOU KNOW GOD!
THOSE OLD PROPHESIES WE CAN NOT USE ANYMORE; WE DONT REALLY NEED IT ANYMORE.THEY HAVE GONE STALE.
THEY ARE JUST PRINTED WORDS WRITTEN BY PROPHETS;ONLY THE GOSPELS ARE YOUR WORDS I SUPPOSE; EXCEPT MAYBE PAULS.THE CONCEPT OF THINKING OF TODAY’S CHRISTIANS,SEASONED BY THE WORLD:
TO KNOW JUST SOME OF THE GOSPELS IS PLENTY OF FUEL, TO GET UP THERE WHERE YOU ARE;GOD.
WE ARE VERY CONFIDENT WITH THAT,CAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TOLD,AND I BELIEVE THAT WITH ALL MY HEART.
NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM US.
ITS EASY LORD;JUST CALL UPON YOUR NAME, AND WE HAVE THE TICKET TO HEAVEN.I HAVE IT NOW,JUST WAITING FOR THE PLANE TO ARRIVE.
I AM FLYING ALREADY RIGHT NOW AS IT IS,THOSE SOFT PILLOWS OF WORDS MAKE ME SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE.
MANY OF THE WICKED WILL CALL UPON YOUR NAME, IN THE DAY OF YOUR APPEARING,AND ALL SHALL BE SAVED.
REMEMBER LORD;YOU DIED FOR US ALL.EVEN THE WICKED.
BUT I AM SAVED NOW,AND I AM ALSO BORN AGAIN NOW. I DONT NEED TO CALL UPON YOUR NAME ANYMORE.THANK YOU OH LORD.
LORD; ONE CAN NOT BE UNBORN AGAIN, CAN HE LORD? CAN ONE BE UNSAVED AGAIN LORD?
TELL ME LORD.WHY IS IT SAID THAT MANY WILL BE UNBORN AGAIN,AND UNSAVED AGAIN IN THE LAST DAYS?
THAT FALLING AWAY THING, MUST HAVE BEEN A ANOTHER MISPRINT LORD!
BUT NOT ME LORD.FOR I HAVE THE TICKET IN MY POCKET; IN THE NAME OF THE TRINITY; YOU THREE IN ONE GOD,
I WILL GET THERE.
WE SHALL ALL BE SAVED.wakeup.
@wakeup
Sorry wakeup but this is a private debate. Thank you for respecting that.
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