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Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2013,16:20) Okay after that sermon, I have a question for you. Regarding YHWH, is HE ALONE the Most High God?
Yes
No
Don't know.
Yes.Now look at this verse and tell me if echad is one singular or compound?
1 Chronicles 17:21 And who is like your people (singular) Israel, the one (echad) nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people (singular), making for yourself a name for great and awesome things, in driving out nations (plural) before your people (singular) whom you redeemed from Egypt?
*Is there ONE (echad) nation made up of many members? Is it possible to be one singular thing that is made up of more than one member, t8? No one single person makes up their own nation.
So, the one YHWH Most High God can be made up of more than one member and be called one in a singular sense just like a nation can be one in a singular sense yet have more than one member.
Look at this and tell me that Abram would be violating the first commandment if He worshiped the Word of the YHVH/LORD that appeared to Him in a vision and he called YHVH/LORD.
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. 4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
Did you notice that the Word of the LORD CAME to him in a VISION, t8? Did you also notice that the Word of the LORD 'brought him forth and had him look at heaven and the stars. That means Abe SAW the Word of the LORD, not just heard. Did you notice that scripture referred to the one that Abraham SAW and was showing him these things as the Word of the LORD AND the LORD and Abram called Him LORD GOD?
*Was Abram blaspheming when He called the Word of the LORD, “LORD GOD?” Or would he be breaking the commandment if it had already been given?
Please answer the two questions with the * or you can answer them one at a time if you are feeling legalistic today.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2013,16:32) http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-31.htm 2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ–He who is blessed throughout the Ages, knows that I am speaking the truth.The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
I agree with Paul. It is the Father, and I am speaking the truth.
OR….just maybe they are BOTH blessed, did you ever think of that?Rev 5:13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
I'll agree with every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea…it is the Father AND the Son and I am speaking the truth!
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:12) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2013,16:32) http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-31.htm 2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ–He who is blessed throughout the Ages, knows that I am speaking the truth.The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
I agree with Paul. It is the Father, and I am speaking the truth.
OR….just maybe they are BOTH blessed, did you ever think of that?Rev 5:13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
I'll agree with every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea…it is the Father AND the Son and I am speaking the truth!
You missed the point. Yes we can be blessed too. But Paul uses that saying of the Father everywhere else from what I can see. Just pointing out a pattern that you are making an exception to.Kathi did I not say to you in my post that 'echad' could be used as an absolute one or a compound one. So why preach to me something I already know. Are you paranoid with your view that you need to reassert it again and again.
My question was simple:
“Regarding YHWH, is HE ALONE the Most High God”?
And you replied 'Yes'.
Thank you for your answer BTW.
Now to easily pick your answer apart when comparing it to your doctrine.
First thing. Your God is not a HE rather a THEM. A HE and a HE is THEM.
Second, HE was alone and you say yes, but in other posts you clearly say that God was WITH God. Thus God was not alone according to your view.So you just answered the question so as to appear right, but when your answers are compared, they contradict. You do not really believe that God was alone do you. Yes is not a true answer from you. You should have said 'No'.
You are confused. This is the fruit of Babylon.
Quote jb2u,
That was the original Nicene Creed that I posted. Also, don't believe what t8 says about my beliefs. I do not believe in a binity. He gives others the wrong impression of me constantly and seems like he has a spirit of the accuser of the brethren. Beware.Also, you cannot escape the truth that God was with God in the beginning and that is speaking of the Son of God.
You take the God with God as meaning that God was with God forever in the past or for always. That makes 2 Gods who existed forever, not one God who is alone the Most High God. Yet you answer “yes” to “Regarding YHWH, is HE ALONE the Most High God”?.
That is a huge fail Kathi and if that doesn't make you check your own doctrine for error, then your pride will continue to lead you away from the path.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2013,15:59) Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 09 2013,12:12) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2013,16:32) http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-31.htm 2 Corinthians 11:31
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ–He who is blessed throughout the Ages, knows that I am speaking the truth.The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
I agree with Paul. It is the Father, and I am speaking the truth.
OR….just maybe they are BOTH blessed, did you ever think of that?Rev 5:13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
I'll agree with every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea…it is the Father AND the Son and I am speaking the truth!
You missed the point. Yes we can be blessed too. But Paul uses that saying of the Father everywhere else from what I can see. Just pointing out a pattern that you are making an exception to.
If the ending is some type of liturgical saying, it is always referring who has just been talked about. In this case, Jesus. And you can see elsewhere in scripture that He and the Father are both blessed forever, and you can also see that Jesus has authority over all. So you have failed to show that the verse in Romans cannot refer to Jesus. Sorry
You should bless Jesus as God over all blessed forever too with Paul and all creatures in heaven, on earth and under the earth.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2013,16:12) Quote jb2u,
That was the original Nicene Creed that I posted. Also, don't believe what t8 says about my beliefs. I do not believe in a binity. He gives others the wrong impression of me constantly and seems like he has a spirit of the accuser of the brethren. Beware.Also, you cannot escape the truth that God was with God in the beginning and that is speaking of the Son of God.
You take the God with God as meaning that God was with God forever in the past or for always. That makes 2 Gods who existed forever, not one God who is alone the Most High God. Yet you answer “yes” to “Regarding YHWH, is HE ALONE the Most High God”?.
That is a huge fail Kathi and if that doesn't make you check your own doctrine for error, then your pride will continue to lead you away from the path.
t8,
You don't get that there were two who are one. YHVH is both God of gods and Lord of lords. For us there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Lord of lords. The two are one. And they are ALONE YHVH.Btw, you will never be one as the roots of Jesse, you will only be one as the offspring of Jesse. Jesus is both the Root and the Shoot.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 13 2013,16:00) Kathi did I not say to you in my post that 'echad' could be used as an absolute one or a compound one. So why preach to me something I already know. Are you paranoid with your view that you need to reassert it again and again. My question was simple:
“Regarding YHWH, is HE ALONE the Most High God”?
And you replied 'Yes'.
Thank you for your answer BTW.
Now to easily pick your answer apart when comparing it to your doctrine.
First thing. Your God is not a HE rather a THEM. A HE and a HE is THEM.
Second, HE was alone and you say yes, but in other posts you clearly say that God was WITH God. Thus God was not alone according to your view.So you just answered the question so as to appear right, but when your answers are compared, they contradict. You do not really believe that God was alone do you. Yes is not a true answer from you. You should have said 'No'.
You are confused. This is the fruit of Babylon.
The two are one. Echad as an absolute one can have more than one member. I showed you that with the phrase echad nation.Please answer this bolded question:
Is it possible to be one singular thing that is made up of more than one member, t8?
Example: echad nation
1 Chronicles 17:21 And who is like your people (singular) Israel, the one (echad) nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people (singular), making for yourself a name for great and awesome things, in driving out nations (plural) before your people (singular) whom you redeemed from Egypt?
I have answered your last question at least twice. There is an absolute echad and a compound one.
I could be cynical and say that I am one person. Yet my body is made up of millions of organisms, so I am a compound person. It is easy to stretch toward God being absolute one, or one in unity when using the imagination alone.
But the real test is scripture. Does the Lord thy God mean one absolute God as the Jews believe, or one God multiple members as Trinitarians and other number versions of God persons that people ascribe to.
And how important is this? Very important. Because at least one of us is teaching men to break the first commandment. So one of us is paving their eternity with a position toward least in the Kingdom of God. That is the best case scenario. Such a person risks their own soul too.
I say that God is absolutely one God who is the Father. (absolute)
You say that God is one God who is the Father and Son. (compound).So my question is this:
Do you agree that one of us is breaking the first commandment and teaching others to as well?
My second question is this:
Do you believe that those who teach not that the Father and Jesus are YHWH are breaking the first commandment?I require an answer to the first question. Then after some reasonable time, I require the second. I only post this second question because I know I will forget to ask you this unless I ask you now.
Quote I say that God is absolutely one God who is the Father. (absolute)
You say that God is one God who is the Father and Son. (compound).So my question is this:
Do you agree that one of us is breaking the first commandment and teaching others to as well?
I think that Jesus addresses this question with this passage:
28And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Whose Son Is the Christ?35And as Jesus taught in the temple, he said, “How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet.’37David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?” And the great throng heard him gladly.
Beware of the Scribes38And in his teaching he said, “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces 39and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”
So, I would guess, because of your arrogant way that you put yourself above everybody else here, you would get this said about you:
“Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces 39and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40who devour widows’ houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”
This is something you can't seem to answer correctly:
37David himself calls him Lord. So how is he his son?”
If you were a man that portrayed a humble character and didn't post around here all high and mighty, you might get told that you are not far from the kingdom of God (but you still have much to learn).
This isn't meant to discourage you but to encourage you on towards more of a humble nature which is pleasing to the LORD.
1) Do you agree that one of us is breaking the first commandment and teaching others to as well?
2) Do you believe that those who teach not that the Father and Jesus are YHWH are breaking the first commandment?Yes or no is sufficient.
Hi t8,
Let's look at the first commandment and see if one of us is breaking it:Exodus 20
2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.3“You shall have no other gods before me.
What does that mean to have no other gods before me? Does that mean that you can have other gods, just make sure the Lord your God that brought the people out of Egypt is understood as the greatest? Or does it mean that you are not to worship any other gods? Let's look at a supporting passage:
Exodus 34:
11“Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 12Take care, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you go, lest it become a snare in your midst. 13You shall tear down their altars and break their pillars and cut down their Asherim 14(for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), 15lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they whore after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and you are invited, you eat of his sacrifice, 16and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters whore after their gods and make your sons whore after their gods.17“You shall not make for yourself any gods of cast metal.
Exodus 20:
4“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.Ok, now let's see if you break any of the above.
You believe that the LORD (YHVH) your God is only the Father. You also believe that Jesus is another god…a lessor god as the Son of God.
I believe that the LORD my God is the Father, Son with their Holy Spirit.We are to worship no other god. You worship the Father as the LORD your God and you worship another god, a lessor god as the Son of God. So, that seems to violate the commandment right there.
I worship the LORD who is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the eternal unity. I don't worship any other gods.
You make a new covenant with the LORD your God through another god as the mediator of that new covenant.
I make a new covenant with the LORD my God who is God of gods and Lord of lords, through the Lord of lords.You eat of the sacrifice of another god, the mediator of the new covenant of the LORD when you take communion.
I eat of the sacrifice of the Lord of lords, the mediator of the new covenant with the LORD, the God of gods and the Lord of lords when I take communion.We are not to bow down or worship another god.
You bow down and worship the LORD and another god, a lessor god as the Son of God.
I bow down and worship the LORD as the God of gods and the Lord of lords.So, yes on your question #1 and #2, what you teach, t8, since you have God and another lessor god, you are in violation of the first commandments. I don't believe what I teach is in violation of the first commandments.
Okay, I have taken this from another topic. It is Kathi's indirect admission to how John 1:1c should be read. It agrees with what I have said all along.
Quote (Lightenup @ Mar. 22 2013,18:02) t8,
The Hebrew word ha-adam has the article 'ha' and refers to one person no matter what their proper name is. If the proper name is meant 'Adam' there is no 'ha' with it. That is what the article is saying. It is also saying that adam without the article refers to mankind in general. So 'the adam' can refer to Seth, or Noah, or Moses.
True because THE Adam is identifying a particular man, whereas adam is not. Is that not what I have been saying all along now you have finally come around to my view.When I was talking about Adam the man, was I not giving an example and was the example wrong. No it was not.
I was using Adam and Eve in particular to show how the definite article works. When talking about Adam the man we say THE Adam and when talking about mankind, we don't use the definite article. If you say it works equally as well for Seth or anyone else then thank you for that, because that supports what I have said, that it is a particular man and Seth and Noah are particular men. But it changes not my view that the definite article preceding adam or theos identifies rather than qualifies. However, I never thought to use that to identify Seth or Noah. So thanks for that. But it makes sense because it is just saying THE Man rather than mankind which I have taught all along.
So if the Word was THE God, then it identifies the Word as God himself. But the text is not doing that even according to what you have just posted.
So let's take your words:
“It is also saying that adam without the article refers to mankind in general”And now apply this understanding to John 1:1
“It is also saying that theos without the article refers to 'theoskind' in general”.theoskind, godkind surely is talking about nature just as mankind is. That is why 'divine' works well.
So yay, we made progress. How long did that take to admit that. You could have known this to be the case years ago if you weren't so obstinate.
My guess is now that you have admitted that the lack of article means that John 1:1c, doesn't support your view anymore, will you do an about turn for prides sake? I would like to be proven wrong on this, but my heart tells me otherwise.
I suppose if t8 is willing to break the first commandments then he would have no problem with lying about others and breaking his own rules that he himself established on HN.
The Greek word 'theos' does not have the definition 'theoskind' as an option, with or without an article but the Hebrew word 'adam' does have the option of 'mankind.'
Strong's #2316
theos: God, a god
Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Short Definition: God, a god
Definition: (a) God, (b) a god, generally.Strong's H120
adam: man, mankind
Original Word: אָדָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: adam
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-dawm')
Short Definition: manPlenty of scholars disagree. Even many Trinitarian scholars agree that the 'theos' without the article in John 1:1c is qualitative.
You have this habit of denying anything that goes against your theology. Whereas, at least I accept that there are other views and that many verses can be altered depending on placing of the commas and brackets.
So for me it is about taking clear scripture to derive doctrine and then seeing if variable scriptures also line up. And they do. If you believe that the only true God is the Father, then everything lines up. If you believe that God is a multi-person entity, then much of scripture doesn't make sense.
You are in denial and deny many scriptures whereas I can accept all scripture.
We are told that we should examine our life and doctrine closely because it is of utmost importance.
Number 2316
Transliteration:
theos {theh'-os}
Word Origin:
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity
TDNT:
3:65,322
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward 4214 2, misc 5Total: 1343
Definition:
a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
the Godhead, trinity
God the Father, the first person in the trinity
Christ, the second person of the trinity
Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
spoken of the only and true God
refers to the things of God
his counsels, interests, things due to him
whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
God's representative or viceregent
of magistrates and judgesQuote (Lightenup @ Mar. 19 2013,16:43) Ok, now let's see if you break any of the above. You believe that the LORD (YHVH) your God is only the Father. You also believe that Jesus is another god…a lessor god as the Son of God.
I believe that the LORD my God is the Father, Son with their Holy Spirit.We are to worship no other god. You worship the Father as the LORD your God and you worship another god, a lessor god as the Son of God. So, that seems to violate the commandment right there.
Nice spin, but you can trash your whole post here because I worship Jesus as the son of God and the Lamb of God. Not because you say that I say he is a lesser god.I honour him as he is and in his right place.
The fact that he is divine, a son, the firstborn, the Logos, and Wisdom, the image of the invisible God, and that only he can see the invisible God only adds to the honour I have for him.
Whereas you break the first commandment by denying the ONLY TRUE GOD. Further, you deny the son because you teach that he is the God that he is the son of.
Similarly I could say that my son is actually me, and then by that definition I deny my son even if by my mouth I say I have a son.
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