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I can only applaud your interest in the world, and notwithstanding your stated indifference to science would suggest that if Mr Niles had taken your approach he would never have written what he apparently did.
I'll keep the explanation brief, since this is not your thing. The typing monkeys canard is a wrong analogy because it implies that the whole set of genes, coded in DNA, are random combinations each one tried in turn and discarded before moving on to trying the next whole set of random combination genes.
Natural selection keeps anything that works, it does not go back to scratch each new generation / attempt at a viable living thing. The monkey typing is all or nothing, natural selection is cumulative change that retains what was useful last time. That makes all the difference in the world.
Richard Dawkins wrote about his Methinks Tis Like A Weasel algorithm in The Blind Watchmaker, which demonstrates the difference between random typing and cumulative change:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_program
Note that this is not an explanation of natural selection itself, because that does not have a target “in mind”. All it does is show you the power of cumulation rather than new random trials.
If you were ever to consider reading a book on this subject then The Blind Watchmaker would be the starting point. Grit your teeth and allow the anti-creationist sentiments to pass by and what you are left with is a brilliant essay on how evolution really works. Even if you only read Chapter 2 in which he discusses the astonishing facts of bat sonar it is worth the bus ride to the library!
Stuart
Stuart,
i do agree that natural selection is a good thing, the origin of the subject seems to be the controversy. as you reflect the imaginary friend as being untrue, i am the same regarding the big bang theory.
i have come to find, that i must be very careful in my rulings, not to cross over to bias or bigotry. ones that accuse another of believing in the wrong, are just as guilty.
how can i tell you that you are wrong Stuart, to believe with all you have is not easily broken. to stand fast in the idea or ideas is very admirable. for some toss and turn with ideas. perhaps some do this because they have not chosen the basics of life. i do not know.
one cannot deny science and the findings, however i do believe science does not always have humanity's well-being as the forefront, with the same being said with religions.
natural selection is very understandable. it is quite amazing, that one can adapt to the environment with physical attributes, alas, it does not do much for our spiritual, that is the most saddening.
to remove one thing from ourselves i would choose fear. what would you choose Stuart?
the more i learn, the more i become to understand you. i do not blame you for what you feel in regards to religious ideas, i do not think that wanting to understand our origins is a negative whatsoever.
perhaps one day Stuart, we will think the same, me with what you have given, and you with what i can give.
of course your mention of bats will have the blind watchmaker in my hands, however, with the understanding of anti creationists you have given, i no longer grit my teeth, thank you.
do take care of yourself Stuart. be safe
Natural Selection is great. It helps preserve a species by favouring traits that are suitable for the environment.
This shows that within the gene pool of a species lies many traits that are there as a backup should they be needed.
Otherwise the environment would destroy many more species when it changes than it does.
If a butterfly species has a range of colours in their gene pool and the environment becomes darker due to pollution, then that trait will allow that species to remain relatively camouflaged as the darker colour butterflies will blend better into their new environment and hence the species has a better chance of surviving as a whole.Similarly, if you want robust software, you need to code in traits that allow for all the differing environments that your software will be subject to. If not, then under certain conditions, it will crash.
Quote Natural selection keeps anything that works
Hi Stuart,Of course natural selection keeps what works,
it would be an 'UNnatural selection' to pick what doesn't work.
If your choice was between two TV's, but only one works, which “SELECTION” would you make? …Naturally!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Mar. 09 2011,07:56) Natural Selection is great. It helps preserve a species by favouring traits that are suitable for the environment.
This shows that within the gene pool of a species lies many traits that are there as a backup should they be needed.
Otherwise the environment would destroy many more species when it changes than it does.
If a butterfly species has a range of colours in their gene pool and the environment becomes darker due to pollution, then that trait will allow that species to remain relatively camouflaged as the darker colour butterflies will blend better into their new environment and hence the species has a better chance of surviving as a whole.Similarly, if you want robust software, you need to code in traits that allow for all the differing environments that your software will be subject to. If not, then under certain conditions, it will crash.
So why do we need new editions of the Windows operating system every few years?This is another failed analogy t8 because it does not account for the fact that there is no design apparent in nature, and there is no evidence of ongoing meddling by a programmer.
Add it to the long list of your false analogies.
Stuart
Stuart, this Galileo fellow, is a bit interesting, the only thing he did not renounce was that he wasnt a good catholic, he would not suceed to that, perhaps his teaching came from the cathar at an early age, his work does not reflect the faith.
The reason I am writing I would like your understanding of what was before the beginning.
Quote (princess @ May 07 2011,10:51) Stuart, this Galileo fellow, is a bit interesting, the only thing he did not renounce was that he wasnt a good catholic, he would not suceed to that, perhaps his teaching came from the cathar at an early age, his work does not reflect the faith. The reason I am writing I would like your understanding of what was before the beginning.
If you mean the beginning of the universe, then I'm afraid we are already limited by our use of language. The words “before” and “after”, and also “cause” and “effect” only have meaning to us if time is passing. So how can there be anything “before” time existed?You might find this less than satisfactory, but it is nevertheless at the heart of the answer to your question.
The evidence goes back to 0.00000000000013 seconds after the big bang: the history of the universe is more or less explained from that point. There are big questions about dark matter and dark energy, but if we stick to the matter and energy we know, the story from energy then hydrogen to stars, planets and life is known. To go back further into that tiny fraction of a second of the beginning of the universe requires higher-energy experiments like those being done in the Large Hadron Collider. But take the evidence we do have back to that first point. There is no matter and no energy, because both come from the gravitational energy of the expansion of the universe, which began with an initial point.
So perhaps your question is why did that point arise, and explode? No one really knows. I am happy not to know, and to assume in the meantime that space-time just behaves like that spontaneously. No “cause” is needed. Apparently the religious tend to jam their god in there as a extra middleman and say that the universe was caused by an Imaginary Friend, and that being was “uncaused”. It works just as well without the god. The god is an optional extra for those who appear to require it for no good reason at all.
As to what a god is, well apparently it is my teapot, which christians allege created everything. No idea what they are on about there!
Stuart
You were mistaken Stuart, the answer was very clear and precise, thank you. The comparison can be placed with lightening, can get so close, but not completely.
The number is small, has a great impact though does it not.Why would you not want to know? Do you have your own thoughts on the subject, it does not include fear does it Stuart.
Is your teapot ancient, modern, or new?
Does your teapot work like the others do, or is there something slightly different. Does it come with a book, instructions. Do you place your money in it, do you have a shrine/altar for it. How did you come about knowing this was the god you want. Is it the original or a recreation of the original, or did it stem from another teapot, or created by other teapots.
Please, excuse my ignorance of not taking you serious on your god, not very polite of me.
Your teapot is the most important to you, I will listen to what you would like to share.much love Stuart.
Quote (princess @ May 07 2011,23:19) You were mistaken Stuart, the answer was very clear and precise, thank you. The comparison can be placed with lightening, can get so close, but not completely.
The number is small, has a great impact though does it not.Why would you not want to know? Do you have your own thoughts on the subject, it does not include fear does it Stuart.
Is your teapot ancient, modern, or new?
It's not that I do not WANT to know, you would be thinking of fundamentalist christians in that, it is that I am comfortable with not knowing. I do not have to invent an Imaginary Friend as a place-holder for my ignorance. Of course I will be as interested as anyone in future knowledge about origins.I don't think the tiny fraction of a second about which we do not have evidence is very significant at all. It is not about wondering what happened before, because you can reasonably infer that by following the evidence backwards and we know how things progressed from that single point, it is more about determining details about the nature of matter, for example the suspected Higgs Boson and other things like it.
Not sure about your reference to fear. How does that relate?
Stuart
Quote (princess @ May 07 2011,23:26) Does your teapot work like the others do, or is there something slightly different. Does it come with a book, instructions. Do you place your money in it, do you have a shrine/altar for it. How did you come about knowing this was the god you want. Is it the original or a recreation of the original, or did it stem from another teapot, or created by other teapots. Please, excuse my ignorance of not taking you serious on your god, not very polite of me.
Your teapot is the most important to you, I will listen to what you would like to share.much love Stuart.
The teapot is in orbit around the sun and it too far away to be seen by any telescope, so I cannot give you these details I'm afraid. You will have to face the fact that there are some things we just don't know about the teapot.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 08 2011,11:40) Quote (princess @ May 07 2011,23:19) You were mistaken Stuart, the answer was very clear and precise, thank you. The comparison can be placed with lightening, can get so close, but not completely.
The number is small, has a great impact though does it not.Why would you not want to know? Do you have your own thoughts on the subject, it does not include fear does it Stuart.
Is your teapot ancient, modern, or new?
It's not that I do not WANT to know, you would be thinking of fundamentalist christians in that, it is that I am comfortable with not knowing. I do not have to invent an Imaginary Friend as a place-holder for my ignorance. Of course I will be as interested as anyone in future knowledge about origins.I don't think the tiny fraction of a second about which we do not have evidence is very significant at all. It is not about wondering what happened before, because you can reasonably infer that by following the evidence backwards and we know how things progressed from that single point, it is more about determining details about the nature of matter, for example the suspected Higgs Boson and other things like it.
Not sure about your reference to fear. How does that relate?
Stuart
I disagree Stuart, that fraction of a second defines the line with god and science.Would it not be wonderful to be given the 'what happened before' information.
So we can compare the what happen before with the common cold in regards to science.
One end of the spectrum to the other. So much inbetween these two points.
Some people will stay in a comfy zone with what they know, for the fear of finding out that what they have believed for so long would be destroyed, and some just cannot have this it would tear their world apart, just keeping things in check.
Quote (princess @ May 09 2011,00:11) Quote (Stu @ May 08 2011,11:40) Quote (princess @ May 07 2011,23:19) You were mistaken Stuart, the answer was very clear and precise, thank you. The comparison can be placed with lightening, can get so close, but not completely.
The number is small, has a great impact though does it not.Why would you not want to know? Do you have your own thoughts on the subject, it does not include fear does it Stuart.
Is your teapot ancient, modern, or new?
It's not that I do not WANT to know, you would be thinking of fundamentalist christians in that, it is that I am comfortable with not knowing. I do not have to invent an Imaginary Friend as a place-holder for my ignorance. Of course I will be as interested as anyone in future knowledge about origins.I don't think the tiny fraction of a second about which we do not have evidence is very significant at all. It is not about wondering what happened before, because you can reasonably infer that by following the evidence backwards and we know how things progressed from that single point, it is more about determining details about the nature of matter, for example the suspected Higgs Boson and other things like it.
Not sure about your reference to fear. How does that relate?
Stuart
I disagree Stuart, that fraction of a second defines the line with god and science.Would it not be wonderful to be given the 'what happened before' information.
So we can compare the what happen before with the common cold in regards to science.
One end of the spectrum to the other. So much inbetween these two points.
Some people will stay in a comfy zone with what they know, for the fear of finding out that what they have believed for so long would be destroyed, and some just cannot have this it would tear their world apart, just keeping things in check.
It seems you need holes like the first 0.0000000000001 second after the big bang to hide your god in. This highlights one fundamental difference between science and religious faith: mystery is a challenge for a scientist to explain but mystery is the necessary condition to be protected by the religious person in order to maintain the god delusion. The religious person must at some level insist on obscuring things to maintain the mystery. I don't think it would be wonderful for your religion to know about that initial split second. Where would you hide your god then?I agree that living in a world of uncertainty could be terrifying; or at least unsettling. But it is the uncertainty that gives meaning to what you know. I would be delighted for Darwin to actually be proved wrong. That would mean we had discovered new depths of understanding about how the universe works. I don't think it is likely that Darwin will ever be overturned in that way, actually the new discoveries will be refinements to that which is known, not revolutions. Maybe biologists will only have day trips away from their comfort zones rather than moving house entirely.
Stuart
Stuart,
This is off subject, as I read over the forum, most post 'only so and so can post here', it seems we have accomplished this feat without having to demand it. Very nice, indeed.
Dear friend, I wear skirts I do not need to hide behind one. Each of us know that something caused the big bang. The difference lays in what we each believe, should I condem you for your belief, throw books and passages at you. Tell you that you will burn forever.
See Stuart, you have heard this all before, as have I. I believe that one should do everything with a pure heart, ask nothing in return, show no favortism, and love as many as your heart can hold. we all come to understandings in our lives, how we choose to react to these is what is important, however the road is not easy on this one, desires and wants can lead to areas we do not need to go, however we go there anyhow.
Familiar concepts with most religions are, everyone takes care of everyone, love each other, be honest with each other, don't take from another, rest, share what you have, don't hurt another.
In studing such matters the repeatativeness reflected is what I am trying to attain. Perfection is not my goal, just peace and comfort knowing my place in the universe.
Much love to you Stuart.
princessQuote (princess @ May 13 2011,10:26) Stuart, This is off subject, as I read over the forum, most post 'only so and so can post here', it seems we have accomplished this feat without having to demand it. Very nice, indeed.
Dear friend, I wear skirts I do not need to hide behind one. Each of us know that something caused the big bang. The difference lays in what we each believe, should I condem you for your belief, throw books and passages at you. Tell you that you will burn forever.
See Stuart, you have heard this all before, as have I. I believe that one should do everything with a pure heart, ask nothing in return, show no favortism, and love as many as your heart can hold. we all come to understandings in our lives, how we choose to react to these is what is important, however the road is not easy on this one, desires and wants can lead to areas we do not need to go, however we go there anyhow.
Familiar concepts with most religions are, everyone takes care of everyone, love each other, be honest with each other, don't take from another, rest, share what you have, don't hurt another.
In studing such matters the repeatativeness reflected is what I am trying to attain. Perfection is not my goal, just peace and comfort knowing my place in the universe.
Much love to you Stuart.
princess
And what is your place in the universe? What is it really? Is it to be a serf in a celestial conspiracy theory invented by ignorant men with a canny skill in exploiting the susceptibility of the human brain for addiction to such foul-tasting yet strangely compelling confections?Isn't that an impoverished existence when it is completely and finally incompatible with the observations we hold in common? Where is the honesty in a spirituality that is not content of even consistent with the apparent facts of our situation? Why does this astonishing lilly of human existence need all this choking gilding of human fictional fantasy stories of Imaginary Friends?
…I often type Imaginary Fiends by Freudian accident…
By the way, I do not acknowledge that the universe has to have any “cause”. As I explained to you, the word cause is entirely meaningless in that situation of an exploding singularity that accompanied the beginning of time. Do't know about you but for many christians it is a point of mindless doctrine that their Creator is allowed to be uncaused but the universe isn't. Don't you think that is cheating somewhat?
Stuart
…I often type Imaginary Fiends by Freudian accident…ha ha.
……..Creator is allowed to be uncaused but the universe isn't,
then that would be saying that the creator had a creator would it not, or am I misunderstanding. I have seen you and t8 speak of it, the something, nothing conversation.couldn't be, one to exist the other would. fair play I agree.
Separation, no unity, is it possible that unity of humanity can be acheived, you consider man to be knumskulls, with relying on the intelligence to believe as you do. Can one person be the same as another without knowing each other.
My friend for you to push aside spirituality and replace it with humanity is a fault you should overcome.
I am quite sure that we are to stand out, different amoung the rest. Strange as it may seem, blessed and highly favored. To secure oneself into a catagory is prison itself, to say I will only stand here and not move is not good. Why should your spirituality not be the same as your physical, should the two not be seperated, to sperate such would bring much wasted time and knowledge.
Birds do not sing when some people are around, take notice you could be one of them. Today sitting on the porch, the earth sounds where the same as the sky sounds, different pitches, still the same. perhaps the earth and sky are starting to mimik each other, for this to be the case something is going to break.
many are speaking of the end times, comparing them to the christian timeline, tis is the only ancient text that does not give specific time/date, other ancient calendars consider the 2012 as something of a disaster, without continuing on, can science explain why they stopped, and felt the need not to go on. on the other hand the ancients where ancient, not with modern times. accounting for their knowledge of the night sky, any normal bloke would think with a little more zest.
Going to go shopping Stuart.
take care
princessQuote (princess @ May 14 2011,10:03) …I often type Imaginary Fiends by Freudian accident…ha ha. ……..Creator is allowed to be uncaused but the universe isn't,
then that would be saying that the creator had a creator would it not, or am I misunderstanding. I have seen you and t8 speak of it, the something, nothing conversation.couldn't be, one to exist the other would. fair play I agree.
Separation, no unity, is it possible that unity of humanity can be acheived, you consider man to be knumskulls, with relying on the intelligence to believe as you do. Can one person be the same as another without knowing each other.
My friend for you to push aside spirituality and replace it with humanity is a fault you should overcome.
I am quite sure that we are to stand out, different amoung the rest. Strange as it may seem, blessed and highly favored. To secure oneself into a catagory is prison itself, to say I will only stand here and not move is not good. Why should your spirituality not be the same as your physical, should the two not be seperated, to sperate such would bring much wasted time and knowledge.
Birds do not sing when some people are around, take notice you could be one of them. Today sitting on the porch, the earth sounds where the same as the sky sounds, different pitches, still the same. perhaps the earth and sky are starting to mimik each other, for this to be the case something is going to break.
many are speaking of the end times, comparing them to the christian timeline, tis is the only ancient text that does not give specific time/date, other ancient calendars consider the 2012 as something of a disaster, without continuing on, can science explain why they stopped, and felt the need not to go on. on the other hand the ancients where ancient, not with modern times. accounting for their knowledge of the night sky, any normal bloke would think with a little more zest.
Going to go shopping Stuart.
take care
princess
It is the case that the chain of cause terminates somewhere or else doesn't and goes to what is called an infinite regress. So why not just stop the regress at the beginning of the universe and call it uncaused? The insertion of a god at that point in the chain is an irrelevant complication: it explains nothing at all and just means even more explanation is required, for example an answer to the question “What is a god?”! Since you can invent anything to be your god then I can't see how it follows that you can claim the god did anything specific on which we could all agree regarding the origins of the universe.I don't regard humanity as numbskulls, although of course there are some of those, but as humans with brains that have inherent flaws that naturally lead them to think ridiculous things. None of us think like computers or Mr. Spock type characters, and I'm not suggesting that is a bad thing, but there are idea viruses (memes) that can exploit those weaknesses of thinking and cause the person to commit to things that are absurd. This is the basis of christian belief: it has cynically exploited the fact that the sillier the belief you can induce the more committed and devout a cult member you will have.
My somewhat arrogant claim is that, far from pushing aside spirituality, I have a spirituality that is honest and you don't. You appear to make belief in silly things without evidence into a virtue, I think it is just repeated bluff. Honestly what is to be gained from placing yourself in a made-up conspiracy theory, invented by people infected by a meme, which is quite nasty in what it proposes? Will you gain eternal life? What kind of a cheque is that for a religion to write? You would not enter a financial agreement on that basis. Why would you want eternal life? Doesn't that completely rob any life of its meaning? Maybe you get a system of life on earth that is a better way of living. I would disagree strongly. Christianity is fundamentally immoral, we have established that already!
I couldn't agree with you more regarding categories: I am uneasy about the term atheist, it is a true description of how I live my life but it defines me in terms of other people's delusions. So forgetting the A word or the C word or any other category, I thing spirituality should be an integral part of life, perhaps an overarching theme that informs how you interact with others and with the universe. I might appear somewhat unpleasant in what I write at times but the nature of the forum is already that we understand religion and politics are the two subjects to avoid in polite company. I therefore assume that this is not polite company but is a group of people interested in discussing ideas without making it personal. We discuss the ball not the man, I hope!
End times claims are an outward symptom of the inward virus. Name a year in the last 2000 when a christian did not claim it would be the last.
Good luck with the shopping.
Stuart
infinite regress so to have no beginning there would be no need for a cause. implosion would not be part, due to the infinite, however, explosion can occur without having cause. did i miss something. shopping can make one exhausted.
its all about me me, so this is what that is called, i have experienced such in life, i tend to think i have a few memes. truly networking the information on such one page to the next to the next, whose take to do you agree with. surprising darwin is who you quote the most.
excuse me Stuart, we are polite to each other, does this take our relationship to a new level, not ready for such things.
lets see technology in one corner astrology to the other, this is the ultimate fight club.
dont be coy about being called a theist, defines you, can an atheist answer what is god, using their exsistence to prove otherwise. what a life one must lead, such wasted time and knowledge to define a matter that should not be of a concern to them. spiritual no.
what you call luck would reference my blessed and highly favored catagory. i had the most enjoyable time, the younger princess are somewhat difficult to talk to, they have their own way, understanding this can be quite challenging at times.
time for spa Stuart.
take care
princess
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