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To all,
Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Also, to MrsIM, towshab did not convince me of anything. I was already on that journey before I encountered him somewhere else. It really hit me full force when debating on the “preexistence” thread here one day.
I'm sorry to say this but when towshab was here there was not a single person on here who did a very good job refuting him. David tried but I think it was a matter of “winning” with David. The rest of you just told him he was the antichrist and that he did not understand because he did not have the Spirit. Even I had to frown at those reactions.
The fact of the matter is, a few people listed prophecies and he picked them apart, one by one and no one came back and refuted any of what he said about those lists. Seriously, if your foundation is so strong, then why can't you stand up and show him his error?
You all know as well as I if you have not changed the rules, towshab would still be here and this board would have tumbleweeds blowing through it. So please think before any of you accuse me of not having a strong foundation.
Does having a strong foundation mean we are to ignore scripture?
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.Hi KJ,
If people find for themselves conflicts between old and new then it is always the NT that gets ditched.Luke 5:39
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.Nothing has changed.
I would plead with you to be more patient than the Jews and let God knit them together for you.Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 18 2007,10:13) To all, Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Also, to MrsIM, towshab did not convince me of anything. I was already on that journey before I encountered him somewhere else. It really hit me full force when debating on the “preexistence” thread here one day.
I'm sorry to say this but when towshab was here there was not a single person on here who did a very good job refuting him. David tried but I think it was a matter of “winning” with David. The rest of you just told him he was the antichrist and that he did not understand because he did not have the Spirit. Even I had to frown at those reactions.
The fact of the matter is, a few people listed prophecies and he picked them apart, one by one and no one came back and refuted any of what he said about those lists. Seriously, if your foundation is so strong, then why can't you stand up and show him his error?
You all know as well as I if you have not changed the rules, towshab would still be here and this board would have tumbleweeds blowing through it. So please think before any of you accuse me of not having a strong foundation.
kejonn What is the purpose of making this statement. I am with ken on this one. From the very beginning I told everybody that I did'nt like what Tow was saying and that it was wrong. Why would I want to talk to Antichrist. You have never explained to us what hit you. At least I don't remember. And if you are going to say that you belief like Tow I have no intrest in talking to you about God either. We can talk about the weather if you wish, but nothing else. I take what 2 John says very serious.
Peace and Lovre Mrs.Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 18 2007,10:13) To all, Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Also, to MrsIM, towshab did not convince me of anything. I was already on that journey before I encountered him somewhere else. It really hit me full force when debating on the “preexistence” thread here one day.
I'm sorry to say this but when towshab was here there was not a single person on here who did a very good job refuting him. David tried but I think it was a matter of “winning” with David. The rest of you just told him he was the antichrist and that he did not understand because he did not have the Spirit. Even I had to frown at those reactions.
The fact of the matter is, a few people listed prophecies and he picked them apart, one by one and no one came back and refuted any of what he said about those lists. Seriously, if your foundation is so strong, then why can't you stand up and show him his error?
You all know as well as I if you have not changed the rules, towshab would still be here and this board would have tumbleweeds blowing through it. So please think before any of you accuse me of not having a strong foundation.
Kejonn.I couldn't be bothered even talking with him to be honest. Fear had nothing to do with it and it was pointless because if he rejects the gospel and the greater revelation, then he was just a Pharisee, in that they had the scriptures but didn't recognise the one. I also knew that what ever time was going to be invested would be wasted and he wasn't my focus.
We don't need to chase after rabbits all the time. God showed me in a dream how people will come and draw men away from the calling by getting men to chase after themselves and their causes.
But in the dream I didn't follow after the distraction even though the distractions were intended to keep our focus off the calling.
Similarly Stu is the same to me. You could invest a lot of your time into him, and he probably still wouldn't believe. The point of him coming here doesn't appear to be a motive to learn truth, but to show off his knowledge and blow away little ignorant people like us. I think this is how they see it at least.
You just can't do everything and be all things to all people.
If a person was genuine, then I would spend time with that person. That would be time well spent.
Mrs,
That is why I don't post here much myself. This board is becoming like many Christian boards: intolerant. Except that this board seems to have more unitarian-leaning Christians than the typical Christian board.
I can remember some time back when I too was intolerant towards a poster who was a universalist. I regret such behavior. Some want to say tolerance is not a good think but we also seem to forget how most of us are without a place to worship because of the intolerance of trinitarians. Yet that does not stop us from being intolerant when another shows his view is different from ours.
I just pray that you all will learn that the only one with all truth is God. Until we go home, we are all still learning.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 17 2007,22:06) Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 18 2007,10:13) To all, Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Also, to MrsIM, towshab did not convince me of anything. I was already on that journey before I encountered him somewhere else. It really hit me full force when debating on the “preexistence” thread here one day.
I'm sorry to say this but when towshab was here there was not a single person on here who did a very good job refuting him. David tried but I think it was a matter of “winning” with David. The rest of you just told him he was the antichrist and that he did not understand because he did not have the Spirit. Even I had to frown at those reactions.
The fact of the matter is, a few people listed prophecies and he picked them apart, one by one and no one came back and refuted any of what he said about those lists. Seriously, if your foundation is so strong, then why can't you stand up and show him his error?
You all know as well as I if you have not changed the rules, towshab would still be here and this board would have tumbleweeds blowing through it. So please think before any of you accuse me of not having a strong foundation.
Kejonn.I couldn't be bothered even talking with him to be honest. Fear had nothing to do with it and it was pointless because if he rejects the gospel and the greater revelation, then he was just a Pharisee, in that they had the scriptures but didn't recognise the one. I also knew that what ever time was going to be invested would be wasted and he wasn't my focus.
We don't need to chase after rabbits all the time. God showed me in a dream how people will come and draw men away from the calling by getting men to chase after themselves and their causes.
But in the dream I didn't follow after the distraction even though the distractions were intended to keep our focus off the calling.
Similarly Stu is the same to me. You could invest a lot of your time into him, and he probably still wouldn't believe. The point of him coming here doesn't appear to be a motive to learn truth, but to show off his knowledge and blow away little ignorant people like us. I think this is how they see it at least.
You just can't do everything and be all things to all people.
If a person was genuine, then I would spend time with that person. That would be time well spent.
Ah, but you will argue the trinity and preexistence until you are blue in the face. Still, you have not convinced WJ.I seem to recall that when asked why you continue to debate the trinity, the reason was for others who might come. Well, how does that differ for a seeker who comes and sees that the Christians here do not have answers when someone says their savior was not real? You argue the trinity and other things that have less bearing on a person's salvation, yet say you will avoid others who come on here and make many posts debating whether or not Yeshua was Messiah. That one seems to be of a greater importance than proving the trinity is false, wouldn't you say? Yet all others can do here is firmly place their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes while the words are still there unanswered for seekers to read.
Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 18 2007,15:11) Mrs, That is why I don't post here much myself. This board is becoming like many Christian boards: intolerant. Except that this board seems to have more unitarian-leaning Christians than the typical Christian board.
I can remember some time back when I too was intolerant towards a poster who was a universalist. I regret such behavior. Some want to say tolerance is not a good think but we also seem to forget how most of us are without a place to worship because of the intolerance of trinitarians. Yet that does not stop us from being intolerant when another shows his view is different from ours.
I just pray that you all will learn that the only one with all truth is God. Until we go home, we are all still learning.
kejonn You seem to have a self righteousness surrounding you that when I first met you you did not have. What ever happened to you. If you don't like it here why even post here, then. Goodbye.
P.S. I think we all need prayers not just a few. As far as truth is concerned I have known for 22 years now that only God's Holy Spirit can show you what is true or false.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 18 2007,10:13) To all, Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Also, to MrsIM, towshab did not convince me of anything. I was already on that journey before I encountered him somewhere else. It really hit me full force when debating on the “preexistence” thread here one day.
I'm sorry to say this but when towshab was here there was not a single person on here who did a very good job refuting him. David tried but I think it was a matter of “winning” with David. The rest of you just told him he was the antichrist and that he did not understand because he did not have the Spirit. Even I had to frown at those reactions.
The fact of the matter is, a few people listed prophecies and he picked them apart, one by one and no one came back and refuted any of what he said about those lists. Seriously, if your foundation is so strong, then why can't you stand up and show him his error?
You all know as well as I if you have not changed the rules, towshab would still be here and this board would have tumbleweeds blowing through it. So please think before any of you accuse me of not having a strong foundation.
kejonnI did.
On Isaiah 53.
He simply kept saying the same thing.
He never answered me on how the Lord could make (the nation Israel) his soul an offering for sin.
Isa 53:10
He kept insisting the 52nd and 53nd chapter was the nation of Israel, which defys 100s of scholars and commentators.
He cannot prove by the Torah or Tanakh that Yeshua is or was not the Messiah no more than we could prove he is.
Yet he insisted he could. Only the Spirit of God can reveal it.
He actually thinks that know one had shaken this board like he had.
How do you have serious dialogue with someone who has totally closed his eyes to Yeshua the Messiah.
If you are a Christian then you know that if you dont confess Jesus as Lord you are not saved therefore void of the Spirit.
So why should any Christian listen to a man about biblical prophesy who has not the Spirit?
So if you think that he has the Spirit. Then let him stay on your sight and teach his lies about the NT scriptures.
He has not proven anything to me and others here except he is void of faith in Yeshua and the the NT scriptures.
I disagree with you. I think David beat him in debate and ran him off. If he wanted to stay he could have. There would have been a place for him to continue his mission to attack Christianity.
But he would have rather stayed in the middle of the forums where Christians are discussing scriptures they believe in.
kejonn You say…
Quote
Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.Ridiculed?
Thats all he and Stu were here for, to ridicule the faith of inocent believers in Yeshua.Do you defend that?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,00:03) Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 18 2007,10:13) To all, Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Also, to MrsIM, towshab did not convince me of anything. I was already on that journey before I encountered him somewhere else. It really hit me full force when debating on the “preexistence” thread here one day.
I'm sorry to say this but when towshab was here there was not a single person on here who did a very good job refuting him. David tried but I think it was a matter of “winning” with David. The rest of you just told him he was the antichrist and that he did not understand because he did not have the Spirit. Even I had to frown at those reactions.
The fact of the matter is, a few people listed prophecies and he picked them apart, one by one and no one came back and refuted any of what he said about those lists. Seriously, if your foundation is so strong, then why can't you stand up and show him his error?
You all know as well as I if you have not changed the rules, towshab would still be here and this board would have tumbleweeds blowing through it. So please think before any of you accuse me of not having a strong foundation.
kejonnI did.
On Isaiah 53.
He simply kept saying the same thing.
He never answered me on how the Lord could make (the nation Israel) his soul an offering for sin.
Isa 53:10
Hi WJ, since this section of the board is not for Christians I can post here.
Yes, I answered you. That verse does not speak of the servant being an offering for sin but the servant making an offering for their own sin. Judaica Press
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
There are some Christian translations that get it right (or very close)
==================================
(ESV) Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.(YLT) And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed — he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
==================================Taken in the context of the rest of Torah and Tanakh, you would see that G-d does not take human sacrifices and that no one can die for another's sins. Thus Is 53:10 speaks of Israel making offering for its sins.
Quote He kept insisting the 52nd and 53nd chapter was the nation of Israel, which defys 100s of scholars and commentators. Each one of them Christian and biased into seeing Jesus leap from the pages of every obscure verse in the Tanakh. Shame he is obviously absent in all of the real messianic passages.
Quote He cannot prove by the Torah or Tanakh that Yeshua is or was not the Messiah no more than we could prove he is. Actually, already have many times over. You can find the threads I started in the “Believer's Place” forum. I'm not allowed in there any more so I can't do any more with them.
What I find sad is that you say you cannot prove he is from Torah or Tanakh. That is quite telling. The real King Messiah won't need to be so obscure, all will know. You've made a very weak case for Jesus in that one statement. Very weak indeed.
Quote Yet he insisted he could. Only the Spirit of God can reveal it. Hahahahaha, when the real King Messiah comes all will know. He will fulfill real prophecies and people will not need the spirit to know who he is!
Quote He actually thinks that know one had shaken this board like he had. How do you have serious dialogue with someone who has totally closed his eyes to Yeshua the Messiah.
If you are a Christian then you know that if you dont confess Jesus as Lord you are not saved therefore void of the Spirit.
So why should any Christian listen to a man about biblical prophesy who has not the Spirit?
So if you think that he has the Spirit. Then let him stay on your sight and teach his lies about the NT scriptures.
He has not proven anything to me and others here except he is void of faith in Yeshua and the the NT scriptures.
I disagree with you. I think David beat him in debate and ran him off. If he wanted to stay he could have. There would have been a place for him to continue his mission to attack Christianity.
Open the board back up to me and I will gladly come back and refute any supposed evidence anyone brings. Yet you all ran scared and voted to change the board up to keep me and Stu out. No matter, I will start some new threads later today in the boards that are open to me. You can try and refute me there.
I will enjoy the exchange. Kejonn's board is rather slow at the time and it will be a good exercise for your bible knowledge for me to be here. You need that.
Quote But he would have rather stayed in the middle of the forums where Christians are discussing scriptures they believe in. Sorry, but until the board was changed it was not just for Christians.
Quote kejonn You say… Quote
Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.Ridiculed?
Thats all he and Stu were here for, to ridicule the faith of inocent believers in Yeshua.Do you defend that?
Innocent believers? I am here because Christianity is false. It takes away from the true G-d of all flesh, YHVH. It has people worshiping an idol. Jesus is that idol.Hi Tow,
Indeed many do worship idols but Jesus the Christ came to bring true worshipers to the Father God. Ignore the gross excesses of false christianity which has no fear of God and uses and abuses His sacred teachings. The way is narrow and few choose it.Quote (kejonn @ Dec. 18 2007,10:13) To all, Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Also, to MrsIM, towshab did not convince me of anything. I was already on that journey before I encountered him somewhere else. It really hit me full force when debating on the “preexistence” thread here one day.
I'm sorry to say this but when towshab was here there was not a single person on here who did a very good job refuting him. David tried but I think it was a matter of “winning” with David. The rest of you just told him he was the antichrist and that he did not understand because he did not have the Spirit. Even I had to frown at those reactions.
The fact of the matter is, a few people listed prophecies and he picked them apart, one by one and no one came back and refuted any of what he said about those lists. Seriously, if your foundation is so strong, then why can't you stand up and show him his error?
You all know as well as I if you have not changed the rules, towshab would still be here and this board would have tumbleweeds blowing through it. So please think before any of you accuse me of not having a strong foundation.
Hi KJ:I know that God is a reality and that Jesus is God's Son and His Christ because the Spirit of God testifies within me testifies to that reality. If you or anyone does not know this, it is because the Spirit of God does not dwell within.
This is what the spripture states:
Quote 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God
Quote 1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.Quote Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, F28 condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally F29 minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal F30 mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Form the OT Isaiah 53 and Psalm 110 is sufficient to refute asnyone's claim that Jesus is not the Messiah.
But Hey, a man is free to choose what he believes. I believe what God has shown me and I call Him Father.
I want God's very best for every individual, and my commision is to share the gospel which is good news with whomever will hear, but if someone, chooses not to hear, than my obligation to that person is fulfilled, but I will continue to pray that God will open your eyes and heart to the truth.
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2007,14:29) Hi Tow,
Indeed many do worship idols but Jesus the Christ came to bring true worshipers to the Father God. Ignore the gross excesses of false christianity which has no fear of God and uses and abuses His sacred teachings. The way is narrow and few choose it.
How can I ignore it when it is the prevalent form? How can Jews ignore it when so many try to convert them?Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 19 2007,00:16) [/quote] Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 18 2007,00:03) kejonn,Dec. wrote:To all,
Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Also, to MrsIM, towshab did not convince me of anything. I was already on that journey before I encountered him somewhere else. It really hit me full force when debating on the “preexistence” thread here one day.
I'm sorry to say this but when towshab was here there was not a single person on here who did a very good job refuting him. David tried but I think it was a matter of “winning” with David. The rest of you just told him he was the antichrist and that he did not understand because he did not have the Spirit. Even I had to frown at those reactions.
The fact of the matter is, a few people listed prophecies and he picked them apart, one by one and no one came back and refuted any of what he said about those lists. Seriously, if your foundation is so strong, then why can't you stand up and show him his error?
You all know as well as I if you have not changed the rules, towshab would still be here and this board would have tumbleweeds blowing through it. So please think before any of you accuse me of not having a strong foundation.
kejonn
I did.
On Isaiah 53.
He simply kept saying the same thing.
He never answered me on how the Lord could make (the nation Israel) his soul an offering for sin.
Isa 53:10
Tow
Quote Hi WJ, since this section of the board is not for Christians I can post here. Correct, you are not a Christian, in fact you are not even a Jew.
So is this gonna be more ridicule of the Christian Faith? Quote Yes, I answered you. That verse does not speak of the servant being an offering for sin but the servant making an offering for their own sin. Judaica Press
Did you answer? If it was what you just said then that is not an answer for it goes outside of the text….
KJV
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
King James Version 1611, 1769NKJV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas NelsonNLT – Isa 53:10 – But it was the Lord's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord's plan will prosper in his hands.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable TrustNIV
Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, And though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible SocietyNASB – Isa 53:10 – But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting {Him} to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
American Standard Version 1901 InfoDarby – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath subjected him to suffering. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see a seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 InfoWebster – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Noah Webster Version 1833 InfoHNV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 InfoThe majority of the translations stack up against your source, and since you are not a Hebrew scholar, I will go with the majority. You have once again proven nothing with your twist on the text.
Towshab,Dec. 19 2007,00:16
Quote And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. There are some Christian translations that get it right (or very close)
==================================
(ESV) Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(YLT) And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed — he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
==================================
Again, a couple of straglers is no proof that what you say is true.
Quote Taken in the context of the rest of Torah and Tanakh, you would see that G-d does not take human sacrifices and that no one can die for another's sins. Thus Is 53:10 speaks of Israel making offering for its sins. And so is your opinion. Is there a scripture in the Torah that says that a sinless man cannot die for anothers sins?
Did not YHWH require Isaac, Abrahams first born Son as a sacrifice, but because Abraham did not even hold back his only Son, the Lord provided the sacrifice.
What a beautiful picture of the Father offering his Only Begotten Son.
God so loved the that he gave his only begotten Son… Jn 3:16
Heb brings this parralell out beautifully…
Heb 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hbr 9:23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hbr 9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Hbr 9:25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
Hbr 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Hbr 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
Hbr 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.This ties in beautifully with Isa 53:10. So now the burden of proof is on you to prove it wrong. Thing is you can't.
I believe it, you don’t. Its that simple. You can’t prove or disprove faith!
Quote He kept insisting the 52nd and 53nd chapter was the nation of Israel, which defys 100s of scholars and commentators. Quote [Each one of them Christian and biased into seeing Jesus leap from the pages of every obscure verse in the Tanakh. Shame he is obviously absent in all of the real messianic passages. Of course it has to be that way for you, or your faith will sink in the sand.
The thing is Tow, what makes you think your sources are so correct?
Let me speak your words back to you concerning your sources from my view…
Each one of them are Non believing Jews or Anti-Christ and biased into not seeing Jesus leaping from the pages of every Messianic Prophesy in the Tanakh. Shame, he is obviously present in all of the real Messianic passages.
You are just blowing in the wind by insisting that you have “The Truth” and all Christianity is false.
Quote He cannot prove by the Torah or Tanakh that Yeshua is or was not the Messiah no more than we could prove he is. Quote Actually, already have many times over. You can find the threads I started in the “Believer's Place” forum. I'm not allowed in there any more so I can't do any more with them. Yea right!
You have proven to yourself maybe. You have pulled blinders over your eyes to believe that you have proven that Yeshua is not the Messiah by the Tanakh or Torah.Quote What I find sad is that you say you cannot prove he is from Torah or Tanakh. That is quite telling. The real King Messiah won't need to be so obscure, all will know. You've made a very weak case for Jesus in that one statement. Very weak indeed.
Its quite sad for you to think that you could walk up to someone and prove he has not come by the Tanakh or the Torah.
And as far as proving he has come, could you prove by the Tanakh or the Torah that YHWH exist or is real?
Stu would disagree if you say yes. But, it is true that when he comes the second time he will come not as a lamb but as a King and Judge.
Quote Yet he insisted he could. Only the Spirit of God can reveal it. Quote Hahahahaha, when the real King Messiah comes all will know. He will fulfill real prophecies and people will not need the spirit to know who he is! Partly true, however we will always need Gods Spirit. Shame, you should come to know him before he comes again!
Quote He actually thinks that know one had shaken this board like he had. How do you have serious dialogue with someone who has totally closed his eyes to Yeshua the Messiah.
If you are a Christian then you know that if you dont confess Jesus as Lord you are not saved therefore void of the Spirit.
So why should any Christian listen to a man about biblical
prophesy who has not the Spirit?So if you think that he has the Spirit. Then let him stay on your sight and teach his lies about the NT scriptures.
He has not proven anything to me and others here except he is void of faith in Yeshua and the the NT scriptures.
I disagree with you. I think David beat him in debate and ran him off. If he wanted to stay he could have. There would have been a place for him to continue his mission to attack Christianity.
Quote Open the board back up to me and I will gladly come back and refute any supposed evidence anyone brings. Yet you all ran scared and voted to change the board up to keep me and Stu out. No matter, I will start some new threads later today in the boards that are open to me. You can try and refute me there. I didn't try to keep you out. I simply thought it was a good Idea to seperate Christians trying to have dialogue without the interuption of antagonist and atheist.
Scared?
Dont flatter yourself!!!Quote I will enjoy the exchange. Kejonn's board is rather slow at the time and it will be a good exercise for your bible knowledge for me to be here. You need that. We sure dont need your Bible knowledge! But you might be right that somehow in your evil intent to destroy the Faith of others through your ridcule, patronizing, and condescending Spirit, God might have a purpose for you here.
Paul asked the Lord three times to remove the thorn in his flesh, the messenger of satan, but the Lord said “My Grace is sufficient for thee”.
Quote But he would have rather stayed in the middle of the forums where Christians are discussing scriptures they believe in. Quote Sorry, but until the board was changed it was not just for Christians. True. So now agnostics and atheist cannot Hijack the sight.
Quote kejonn You say… Quote Yes, I recreated my site for 2 reasons (1) to restore this site to what it was (although it cannot be fully) and (2) to offer a place where people with beliefs outside of the mainstream can share their thoughts without getting ridiculed.
Ridiculed?
Thats all he and Stu were here for, to ridicule the faith of inocent believers in Yeshua.Do you defend that?
Quote Innocent believers? I am here because Christianity is false. It takes away from the true G-d of all flesh, YHVH. It has people worshiping an idol. Jesus is that idol.
Yes of course, you think you are a prophet and you are here on a mission for YHWH. Get real! YHWH dosnt need your help.
As you said “He is the God of all flesh”, that includes Christians!!!
Hi t8
Quote God showed me in a dream how people will come and draw men away from the calling by getting men to chase after themselves and their causes.
But t8, god only tells you boring things in dreams. Why can’t you seek a Theory of Divine Creation from him? Is god trying to hide something from you? I call your bluff. Your god is in your head and nowhere else. Christians are full of bluster that scientists answer the ‘how’ questions and religions answer the ‘why’ questions, but Genesis explains neither how nor why.Quote Similarly Stu is the same to me. You could invest a lot of your time into him, and he probably still wouldn't believe.
You have, and I still don’t. I leave open the possibility of your god, yet you do not convince me. Even more problematical is that you do not leave open the possibility that your god is not there, so your view is hypocritical.Quote The point of him coming here doesn't appear to be a motive to learn truth, but to show off his knowledge and blow away little ignorant people like us. I think this is how they see it at least.
Are you defensive about me not being impressed by your pretty feeble defence of your faith? Do you take pride in your ignorance of science? A victimhood mentality does not make for an attractive philosophy.Quote If a person was genuine, then I would spend time with that person. That would be time well spent.
You mean if a person was ready for you to convert him then you would be happy to claim credit for it.Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,00:05) Tow Quote Hi WJ, since this section of the board is not for Christians I can post here. Correct, you are not a Christian, in fact you are not even a Jew.
So is this gonna be more ridicule of the Christian Faith? Sure, why not. It is full of conflicts, contradictions and ambiguities so it makes for an easy target.
Quote Quote Yes, I answered you. That verse does not speak of the servant being an offering for sin but the servant making an offering for their own sin. Judaica Press
Did you answer? If it was what you just said then that is not an answer for it goes outside of the text….
KJV
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
King James Version 1611, 1769NKJV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas NelsonNLT – Isa 53:10 – But it was the Lord's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord's plan will prosper in his hands.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable TrustNIV
Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, And though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible SocietyNASB – Isa 53:10 – But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting {Him} to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
American Standard Version 1901 InfoDarby – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath subjected him to suffering. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see a seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 InfoWebster – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Noah Webster Version 1833 InfoHNV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 InfoThe majority of the translations stack up against your source, and since you are not a Hebrew scholar, I will go with the majority. You have once again proven nothing with your twist on the text.
Since most observant Jews raise their children from an early age to read and write Hebrew, I would dare say that your many biased Christian translations are incorrect. Who is more of a Hebrew scholar, one who picks up the language in college, or one who has studied since the age of 5? Sorry, throw your OT out. It is full of Christian bias and has been proven to be so. The KJV and NIV are the worst offenders because they often change things up to suit Christian theology.Even the 1917 JPS, based heavily on the KJV, has it better:
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
Sorry, but Christians should stick with Greek. Hebrew/Aramaic is not their language.
Also, I'd like to point out a very grave error Christians make in Is 53:10: did Jesus offer his body or soul on the cross? I thought that Jesus' blood was the sacrifice; blood has nothing to do with soul. Yet offering is what redeems a soul. Therefore, your translation is found even through the muck the Christians made of it. It is still about the servant seeking restitution for his soul.
Case closed.
Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 21 2007,03:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,00:05) Tow Quote Hi WJ, since this section of the board is not for Christians I can post here. Correct, you are not a Christian, in fact you are not even a Jew.
So is this gonna be more ridicule of the Christian Faith? Sure, why not. It is full of conflicts, contradictions and ambiguities so it makes for an easy target.
Quote Quote Yes, I answered you. That verse does not speak of the servant being an offering for sin but the servant making an offering for their own sin. Judaica Press
Did you answer? If it was what you just said then that is not an answer for it goes outside of the text….
KJV
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
King James Version 1611, 1769NKJV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas NelsonNLT – Isa 53:10 – But it was the Lord's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord's plan will prosper in his hands.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable TrustNIV
Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, And though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible SocietyNASB – Isa 53:10 – But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting {Him} to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
American Standard Version 1901 InfoDarby – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath subjected him to suffering. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see a seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 InfoWebster – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Noah Webster Version 1833 InfoHNV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 InfoThe majority of the translations stack up against your source, and since you are not a Hebrew scholar, I will go with the majority. You have once again proven nothing with your twist on the text.
Since most observant Jews raise their children from an early age to read and write Hebrew, I would dare say that your many biased Christian translations are incorrect. Who is more of a Hebrew scholar, one who picks up the language in college, or one who has studied since the age of 5? Sorry, throw your OT out. It is full of Christian bias and has been proven to be so. The KJV and NIV are the worst offenders because they often change things up to suit Christian theology.Even the 1917 JPS, based heavily on the KJV, has it better:
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
Sorry, but Christians should stick with Greek. Hebrew/Aramaic is not their language.
Also, I'd like to point out a very grave error Christians make in Is 53:10: did Jesus offer his body or soul on the cross? I thought that Jesus' blood was the sacrifice; blood has nothing to do with soul. Yet offering is what redeems a soul. Therefore, your translation is found even through the muck the Christians made of it. It is still about the servant seeking restitution for his soul.
Case closed.
Hi Tow,
There are no contradictions in the sacred writings but just a lot of ignorance about them.Quote (Towshab @ Dec. 21 2007,03:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 19 2007,00:05) Tow Quote Hi WJ, since this section of the board is not for Christians I can post here. Correct, you are not a Christian, in fact you are not even a Jew.
So is this gonna be more ridicule of the Christian Faith? Sure, why not. It is full of conflicts, contradictions and ambiguities so it makes for an easy target.
Quote Quote Yes, I answered you. That verse does not speak of the servant being an offering for sin but the servant making an offering for their own sin. Judaica Press
Did you answer? If it was what you just said then that is not an answer for it goes outside of the text….
KJV
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
King James Version 1611, 1769NKJV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas NelsonNLT – Isa 53:10 – But it was the Lord's good plan to crush him and fill him with grief. Yet when his life is made an offering for sin, he will have a multitude of children, many heirs. He will enjoy a long life, and the Lord's plan will prosper in his hands.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable TrustNIV
Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, And though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible SocietyNASB – Isa 53:10 – But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting {Him} to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman FoundationRSV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand;
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.ASV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
American Standard Version 1901 InfoDarby – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath subjected him to suffering. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see a seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 InfoWebster – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Noah Webster Version 1833 InfoHNV – Isa 53:10 – Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 InfoThe majority of the translations stack up against your source, and since you are not a Hebrew scholar, I will go with the majority. You have once again proven nothing with your twist on the text.
Since most observant Jews raise their children from an early age to read and write Hebrew, I would dare say that your many biased Christian translations are incorrect. Who is more of a Hebrew scholar, one who picks up the language in college, or one who has studied since the age of 5? Sorry, throw your OT out. It is full of Christian bias and has been proven to be so. The KJV and NIV are the worst offenders because they often change things up to suit Christian theology.Even the 1917 JPS, based heavily on the KJV, has it better:
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
Sorry, but Christians should stick with Greek. Hebrew/Aramaic is not their language.
Also, I'd like to point out a very grave error Christians make in Is 53:10: did Jesus offer his body or soul on the cross? I thought that Jesus' blood was the sacrifice; blood has nothing to do with soul. Yet offering is what redeems a soul. Therefore, your translation is found even through the muck the Christians made of it. It is still about the servant seeking restitution for his soul.
Case closed.
TowYou say…
Quote
Since most observant Jews raise their children from an early age to read and write Hebrew, I would dare say that your many biased Christian translations are incorrect.Quote Case closed. Correct. Case closed! I am done with this fruitless dialogue with you.
Whats the use? If the discussion is about scriptures namely the Torah and the Tanakh and the GT, and everytime it dosnt agree with you you cry foul play by the translators then what a waste of time. There is no basis for this conversation!
How do you expect to prove anything scripturally if the text is corrupt as you say?
In fact it looks like you just pick and choose what you want and then just leave the rest alone, like the fact that YHWH told the Jews to conquer lands and kill their woman and children and even keep their young virgins for themselves, yet you imply that it was the Jews own doings and not YHWH.
As far as Yeshua offering hi
s soul for sin. The primary part of the man is the spirit and soul of a man, the body is the temple that he lives in. Yeshua gave all, Spirit Soul and Body to redeem the whole man. He went into the lower parts of the earth in hell to redeem us.Pss 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.Another fulfillment of Prophesy.
So goodbye friend. I bail out because you are not playing by the rules!
I do hope that you will come to know Yeshua as the Messiah!
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