- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Elohim in the eyes of the Jew:
Isaiah 45
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.18 For thus says the Lord,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it empty,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.20 “Assemble yourselves and come;
draw near together,
you survivors of the nations!
They have no knowledge
who carry about their wooden idols,
and keep on praying to a god
that cannot save.
21 Declare and present your case;
let them take counsel together!
Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the Lord?
And there is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none besides me.22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn;
from my mouth has gone out in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear allegiance.’Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2013,08:38) We know that Jesus, God's firstborn, and also myriads of angels were with God when He created the earth, and ultimately mankind. He could have been speaking ONLY to the firstborn, through whom He then created the adam. Or He could have been speaking to the entire divine counsel of angels.
To whom do YOU think God was speaking?
Mike,God was speaking to and through the host of heaven he had previously created.
Quote (2besee @ April 29 2013,09:05) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2013,08:24) Let us look at: Genesis 1:26
King James Version (KJV)26 And God(elohim) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
It is the elohim, which is a plural word by nature, that stated “us”. Elsewhere it is written that man is a little lower than the elohim.
Who is in the unity of the elohim at the time man is made?
Mike and Kerwin,
“Said God, make man image, likeness, rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle all the earth…..”
There is no “let us” or “our” in the Hebrew.
2besee,Thank you. I had not heard that claim before.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2013,15:38) We know that Jesus, God's firstborn, and also myriads of angels were with God when He created the earth, and ultimately mankind. He could have been speaking ONLY to the firstborn, through whom He then created the adam. Or He could have been speaking to the entire divine counsel of angels.
To whom do YOU think God was speaking?
In my opinion Mike, God was speaking as a command, not to anyone in particular. His word was the command, and as I have shown you “us” and “our” is not in the Hebrew text.
Also, remember what Irenaeus said in the 2nd century?
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iii.iii.html
“5. For this is a peculiarity of the pre-eminence of God, not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence. His own Word is both suitable and sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him (God): “All things were made by Him (God), and without Him was nothing made.” Now, among the “all things” our world must be embraced. It too, therefore, was made by His Word, as Scripture tells us in the book of Genesis that He made all things connected with our world by His Word. David also expresses the same truth [when he says] “For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” Whom, therefore, shall we believe as to the creation of the world—these heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on the subject, or the disciples of the Lord, and Moses, who was both a faithful servant of God and a prophet? He at first narrated the formation of the world in these words: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” and all other things in succession; but neither gods nor angels [had any share in the work].
Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying,] “There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all things, and in us all.” I have indeed proved already that there is only one God; but I shall further demonstrate this from the apostles themselves, and from the discourses of the Lord. For what sort of conduct would it be, were we to forsake the utterances of the prophets, of the Lord, and of the apostles, that we might give heed to these persons, who speak not a word of sense?”
(The two additions in italics in the 2nd row were my own)
Quote (kerwin @ April 28 2013,09:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2013,00:28) Quote (jammin @ April 26 2013,18:25) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2013,09:15) Quote (jammin @ April 25 2013,21:12) that is just your excuse. i already answered lots of your questions but you ignore my questions. ill repeat boy
do you agree that being also means nature? yes or no?>
I agree with the following uses of the word “being” that YOU YOURSELF wrote:Quote (jammin @ April 23 2013,23:02) second, Christ is the exact likeness of God's being Quote (jammin @ April 23 2013,23:02) therefore in gen 1.26, God is not talking to his angles but to the being with the same image and likeness. In which one of your two quotes does the word “being” mean “nature”?
the dictionary tells us that being also means nature.
There. I've made my question bigger, just in case you didn't see it the first time.
Mike,Adam was the being that was created with the same image and likeness as the Elohim.
Genesis 1:26
King James Version (KJV)26 And God(elohim) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
What is wrong with that boy? The first one is nature. The second is person. The son is a person with the same nature just like his fatherQuote (kerwin @ April 29 2013,22:30) 2besee, Thank you. I had not heard that claim before.
Kerwin, you are welcome.
Forgot to put the link for the main text:
http://biblos.com/genesis/1-26.htm
Where you see “our image” and “to our likeness” click on the strong's number to the left of the words.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 28 2013,04:18) Quote (jammin @ April 26 2013,13:42) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 26 2013,00:57) Jammin………..I gave you verses and Scriptures but you just ignored them , So what are the SEVEN SPIRITs of GOD that go out into “ALL” the EARTH, if those Sprit are not in all of God's CREATION> Then what do they do? Your problem is like most, you have no idea what a SPIRIT, REALLY, “IS” Boy. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene
your verse is irrelevant,give me version that says in gen 1.26 that God is talking to the 7 spirits.
ill give you 1000yrs to find one
jammin………..Give me one that says he is talking about Jesus, in Genesis as the “us” and I'll give you 2000 yrs to find it boy
or show me the word “trinity” in any scripture and I give you another 4000 yes, to find it boy , or better yet show me one scripture that says, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all one and the same, or one scripture that say Jesus is a GOD of any kind, boy, I'll just lump them all together and give you say 10,000 yrs how's that boy.
Peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
You dnt have to wait thousand yrs boy bec i can read that to you .i just need mike to give me version that God is talking to angels. Also i need your version that God is talking to seven spirits. You may ask help boyJammin………I never said it is written that God was talking to his Seven Spirit that are befor his trhone , that was MY OPINION, So let get that straight. So produce one scripture showin he was talking about Jesus them > you have never prioduced it boy or for that matter any of the scriptures i have ask for where are they Boy?
peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2013,01:25) Jammin………I never said it is written that God was talking to his Seven Spirit that are befor his trhone , that was MY OPINION, So let get that straight. So produce one scripture showin he was talking about Jesus them > you have never prioduced it boy or for that matter any of the scriptures i have ask for where are they Boy? peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
thanks for accepting that it is your opinion.now we know that you are a teacher of opinion LOL
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2013,01:25) Jammin………I never said it is written that God was talking to his Seven Spirit that are befor his trhone , that was MY OPINION, So let get that straight. So produce one scripture showin he was talking about Jesus them > you have never prioduced it boy or for that matter any of the scriptures i have ask for where are they Boy? peace and love to you and yours……………………………gene
dont worry. dont be excited. i can read that to you,let mike find version first that God is talking to his angels in gen 1.26
Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2013,03:28) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2013,08:38)
To whom do YOU think God was speaking?
Mike,God was speaking to and through the host of heaven he had previously created.
Agreed, Kerwin.Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2013,03:30) Quote (2besee @ April 29 2013,09:05)
Mike and Kerwin,“Said God, make man image, likeness, rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle all the earth…..”
There is no “let us” or “our” in the Hebrew.
2besee,Thank you. I had not heard that claim before.
Hebrew is not written the way English is, 2B. The plural VERB is what tells us God said, Let US make man.I'm not a Hebrew expert, but I think you'll need to look deeper into this before claiming that the words “us” and “our” aren't there. We don't necessarily have to SEE those words in the English transliteration in order for them to “be there” in the Hebrew.
Quote (jammin @ April 29 2013,15:53) let mike find version first that God is talking to his angels in gen 1.26
I've already listed one for you, jammin. Don't you remember? Here it is again:Genesis 1:26 NET ©
Then God said, “Let us make 1 humankind 2 in our image, after our likeness…………..Footnote #1:
In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels.There ya go! And these notes are from 25 TRINITARIAN scholars, jammin. I agree with them.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2013,12:52) Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2013,03:30) Quote (2besee @ April 29 2013,09:05)
Mike and Kerwin,“Said God, make man image, likeness, rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the cattle all the earth…..”
There is no “let us” or “our” in the Hebrew.
2besee,Thank you. I had not heard that claim before.
Hebrew is not written the way English is, 2B. The plural VERB is what tells us God said, Let US make man.I'm not a Hebrew expert, but I think you'll need to look deeper into this before claiming that the words “us” and “our” aren't there. We don't necessarily have to SEE those words in the English transliteration in order for them to “be there” in the Hebrew.
Mike,
The words “us” and “our” are NOT there, not in the Hebrew nor in the Hebrew understanding. Jesus did not correct the Hebrews understanding that God (Elohim) is one did He? No! He reconfirmed that there is BUT ONE GOD, the Father.
Reread what Irenaes said.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iii.iii.html
“5. For this is a peculiarity of the pre-eminence of God, not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence. His own Word is both suitable and sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him : “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” Now, among the “all things” our world must be embraced. It too, therefore, was made by His Word, as Scripture tells us in the book of Genesis that He made all things connected with our world by His Word. David also expresses the same truth [when he says] “For He spake, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” Whom, therefore, shall we believe as to the creation of the world—these heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on the subject, or the disciples of the Lord, and Moses, who was both a faithful servant of God and a prophet? He at first narrated the formation of the world in these words: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” and all other things in succession; but neither gods nor angels [had any share in the work].
Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying,] “There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all things, and in us all.” I have indeed proved already that there is only one God; but I shall further demonstrate this from the apostles themselves, and from the discourses of the Lord. For what sort of conduct would it be, were we to forsake the utterances of the prophets, of the Lord, and of the apostles, that we might give heed to these persons, who speak not a word of sense?”
That is all that I have to say.
Quote Ireneaus “even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him : “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.”
That is John 1, and Ireneaus understood the one through whom all things were made to be God the Father through his own spoken word and his own spirit.
Just as Hermas also believed the Son to be God's own Spirit, the Holy Spirit of the one God rather than some other little god.
Just saying that Ireneaues understood it the same way as Hermas, and they were BEFORE Origen.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2013,11:02) Quote (jammin @ April 29 2013,15:53) let mike find version first that God is talking to his angels in gen 1.26
I've already listed one for you, jammin. Don't you remember? Here it is again:Genesis 1:26 NET ©
Then God said, “Let us make 1 humankind 2 in our image, after our likeness…………..Footnote #1:
In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels.There ya go! And these notes are from 25 TRINITARIAN scholars, jammin. I agree with them.
dont you see the upper part of that footnote??
that is one of the arguments boy.
there is no angles written in verse 26 of gen 1.make your version boy LOL
Quote (2besee @ April 29 2013,19:33) Mike, The words “us” and “our” are NOT there, not in the Hebrew nor in the Hebrew understanding. Jesus did not correct the Hebrews understanding that God (Elohim) is one did He?
2B,I suggest you ask a Hebrew scholar about it. Did you know that a certain “vav” in Hebrew translates to the English word “and”? And if that “vav” is placed in a different spot, it means “but”.
But you will never see that “vav” in an English transliteration like the one at Biblos.com. It doesn't really translate into an English word, and can mean many different things.
This is just the tip of the iceberg, 2B. So I'm telling you that just because you don't see the word “us” in the English transliteration on Biblos.com does NOT mean the Hebrew text doesn't actually SAY “Let US create man in OUR image”.
Are you able to understand this?
Another example is if the Hebrew verb “run” is written in the third person feminine form, it means “SHE runs”. We won't ever see that word “SHE” in an English transliteration, but the form in which the Hebrew words were written tell us the text said “SHE runs”.
Are you getting it now?
As for the rest of what you said, I have never claimed that God is “more than one”. Nor did Jesus. And my understanding that our ONE God was talking to His divine counsel of angels in Gen 1:26 also doesn't imply that I think God is more than ONE. So I don't really know what all that is about.
Quote (jammin @ April 29 2013,20:22) dont you see the upper part of that footnote?
Post it for us all, jammin. I didn't post the entire, huge footnote – only the sensible CONCLUSION that these 25 TRINITARIAN scholars came to.If YOU want to post the rest of it, go ahead. All it says is that many people want to IMAGINE some trinity hint with these words, but it's basically nothing but their own wishful thinking.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
