Show me the fruit

[terraricca]

Martian

this are fruits,

Living by the Holy Spirit’s Power

Gal 5:16 So I say, live by the Holy Spirit’s power. Then you will not do what your sinful nature wants you to do.
Gal 5:17 The sinful nature does not want what the Spirit delights in. And the Spirit does not want what the sinful nature delights in. The two are at war with each other. That’s what makes you do what you don’t want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the authority of the law.
Gal 5:19 What the sinful nature does is clear. It enjoys sexual sins, impure acts and wild living.
Gal 5:20 It worships statues of gods. It also worships evil powers. It is full of hatred and fighting. It is full of jealousy and fits of anger. It is interested only in getting ahead. It stirs up trouble. It separates people into their own little groups.
Gal 5:21 It wants what others have. It gets drunk and takes part in wild parties. It does many things of that kind. I warn you now as I did before. People who live like that will not receive God’s kingdom.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit the Holy Spirit produces is love, joy and peace. It is being patient, kind and good. It is being faithful
Gal 5:23 and gentle and having control of oneself. There is no law against things of that kind.
Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed their sinful nature to his cross. They don’t want what their sinful nature loves and longs for.
Gal 5:25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us march in step with the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become proud. Let us not make each other angry. Let us not want what belongs to others

Jn 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus. “Don’t you understand these things?
Jn 3:11 “What I’m about to tell you is true. We speak about what we know. We give witness to what we have seen. But still you people do not accept our witness.
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you about earthly things, and you do not believe. So how will you believe if I speak about heavenly things?

the fruits is something what is received after we receive the words of God in our hearth,and this is only possible through Christ and his father truth.

if you still looking for it would imply that you have not receive any.

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 15 2010,02:14)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 14 2010,07:30) Quote (martian @ Sep. 14 2010,03:33) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 11 2010,10:23) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,10:39) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,08:11) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53) Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45) Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20) George, You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope?  How does it do that? Where did I say that? Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches. Perhaps I don't quite understand your question. Georg You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.” The truth you say you have is the pre-0existence of Jesus. I want to know how that” truth” gives you hope? How does it make Christ more of an example for us? How does it show us a clear pattern that we can follow? The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact. “”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.””” You even quoted what I said; so why do you want to spin this into something else? Why would you say, the pre-existence of Jesus gives me hope? How can his pre-existence make Jesus a better example? How can his pre-existence show you a clearer pattern to follow? What does his pre-existence have to do with any of this? Nothing that I can see. Georg I understand that you do not see it. That is the problem. If you believe that Jesus had any advantage over the rest of humanity due to his pre-existence then you have partially negated his being an example for us. What hope can I gain from a creature doing anything if that creature is not like me? I have hope in overcoming because I have an example that is just like me that overcame. If Christ is different then me I cannot use him as an exact example. It creates doubt in what I can follow him in and what I cannot. How can I follow Christ and walk the paths that he walked if his path is determined by his pre-existence? Your doctrine moves Christ away from us just like the Trinity does. Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree? If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that? Yes, Jesus knew who he was, God's son, and he knew were he came from, heaven. He was a spirit being “in” heaven, but not while he was on earth. If you call that an advantage, than yes it was, but, do you think any one else could have accomplished, what he accomplished, not sinned? had he sinned, he could not have died for ours. He was “all” man,  Hbr 2:16   For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (flesh) We are to imitate him, but God knows that we will not accomplish what Jesus did; that is why he died for us, his pre-existence has nothing to do with that. What path are you trying to follow? you can never “BE” Christ, what is it that Jesus ask us to do? Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.   That's all you have to do, I think you will find, that's hard enough. “””Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his pre-existence. Do you agree?””” YES “””So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us.””” I disagree, Jhn 8:28   Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.   God is not asking the impossible from us, so relax. Georg You contradict yourself. “He was “all” man,” but yet you say he had knowledge we do not posses and never could from so called pre-existence. That is a contradiction. His overcoming is supposed to be an example to us and yet you say he had some advantage in knowledge that would have influenced his ability to overcome. How do we follow that example. You doctrine is just silly and non-sense. It defeats Christ as our example. So if you had lived in heaven before being born on Earth and you had memories of that time, you would not be effected by that? That would not influence your decisions? Come on, show a little bit of reason here. I am not sure what you are trying to prove with Heb 2 but maybe try the context — 14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (NOTICE IT SAY IN ALL THINGS. IT DOES NOT SAY IN ALL THINGS EXCEPT PRE-EXISTENCE KNOWLEDGE) 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body. God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being. The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure. How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new. Job 14:14   If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.   Job 14:15   Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.   Job 33:25   His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:   Why do you try to read something into scripture that is not there? Do you not ask God for his Holy Spirit to give you power to overcome sin? on your own you will never succeed. That is what we are to do, Jesus never sinned, even though he was tempted in all things, that “IS” how we are to imitate Jesus, but God knows we will fail many times, read this. 1Jo 1:6   If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:   1Jo 1:7   But if we walk in the light (truth), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.   1Jo 1:8   If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.   God knows we are sinners, and we “will” sin. 1Jo 1:9   If we confess our sins (ask for forgiveness), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   If we think, because Jesus died for our sins, and therefore don't have to ask for forgiveness, we fool our-self. 1Jo 1:10   If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.   Are you trying the impossible, or just looking for an excuse not to try at all? Georg You say- It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body. God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being. The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure. Reply- First none of you have yet defined (scripturally) what you mean by Spirit Being. That term does not exist in scripture. If you are going to use the scripture that Christ became a life giving spirit literally, then you must say that Christ literally became moving air or a wind. Making the term “spirit” an animated being is the same thing the Trinitarians do to make the spirit the third person of the trinity. Secondly the scripture certainly indicates we can have the full measure of the Spirit. Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness. Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. You say- How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new. Reply — First you use as proof an assumption that Christ WAS a Spirit Being before his birth to Mary. Second – Was Christ resurrected to be born to Mary? Did Christ die before being born to Mary? Is there any way for one person to become like another that has been resurrected? No, we are ask to walk on this Earth in the same manner he walked on this Earth. Making decisions like him which must be made based on the same criteria/knowledge as he had. We cannot walk like him on the Earth if his walk is based on knowledge or criteria that we cannot acquire. You make as much sense as a dryer in the dessert. Georg George, I mean no disrespect but your posts show a lack of education in any form of proper interpretation principles. I am sorry that you have not had the opportunity to learn such things.

Martian!  In spite of the lack of Education my Husband unfortunately has, (because of the war) He has more knowledge then the average Human Being.  He has taught Himself so much. Also His knowledge on Ancient History is outstanding.  Besides God tells us that He will take the meek and the little men and make a Professor out of Him. Paraphrasing it. You also have no idea what He does for others.  So you better stop attacking Him….. You already have two tiles.  Five and you are gone….. Just remember that….. Peace Irene

[Baker]

Martian!  One more thing.  Why don't you go to Germany, and learn German, and we will see how many mistakes you will make, as far as your education on that language goes……Irene:(

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,13:46)

Okay Gene, Finally something to work with…..let's do it. Quote You mean like the (SEED) of the women Shall brise the Head of the serpent. Yes, Jesus was the seed of Eve ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.  Tell me how that says he didn't also pre-exist his flesh. Quote You men like the scripture where Moses said GOD would raise up a “PROPHET” Like Him from their Brethern. Tell me how that says he didn't also pre-exist his flesh. Quote you mean like where it say the Son of “MAN” over fifty times in Scripture.                 you mean like where it say when the SON of MAN Returns                 You mean like where it says we have (ONE) GOD and ONE mediator between GOD and MAN the “MAN” Jesus Christ. How do any of these say Jesus didn't pre-exist? Quote You mean where it say,  you mean where Jesus said I and the root (AND) offspring of DAVID. This one works against you Gene.  If “offspring” and “Branch of David” means “came after David”, then what does being the “Root of David” mean? Quote You mean where it say God Created every thing (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF). Jesus pre-existing doesn't change this scripture one bit Gene. Quote You mean where it say Jesus is the FIRST (BORN) SON of GOD. You mean where it says he is the firstborn of all creation, period?  Again, how does this imply Jesus didn't pre-exist? Quote You men where it say we are (JOINT HEIRS WITH JESUS). This is the main flaw you guys encounter.  You think that Jesus WAS like us, but in reality, the promise is the we CAN SOMEDAY be like he is.  That's a big difference Gene. Quote You mean where it says, “and thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah art the least among the princes of Judah for (OUT) of  YOU shall come a governor , that shall rule my people Israel.”  Notice it does not say out of preexistence past. would come a governor.  Why didn't you quote the part where it clearly says his origins are from the ancient past? Quote You mean where it say the Spirit of the Antichrist is to deny Jesus came in the Flesh. Which one of us denies Jesus came in the flesh, Gene? You see?  Your big “fireworks grand finale”…….and not one single thing that would eliminate the possibility that Jesus pre-existed.  What else ya got? mike

Mike…….With MYSTERY RELIGION ALL Preexistence possibilities are possible right. It is even possible Jesus was a GOD before his Berth ask any Catholic or Protestant. You say what i post does not proven that possibility , but what i posted does not prove that he preexisted in any form as a Being of some kind and later Morphed into a human. In fact it disproves it if you look at it honestly. Then you throw in the word according to the Flesh. Which is to deny His real flesh existence and try to create a difference from us, that is exactly John's Point by saying that is the Spirit of Antichrist. It is this (INTELLECT) that Jesus had a separate prior pre-earth existence as some kind of God or demigod or super angel, it makes no difference all this kind of teaching destroys the work of GOD in MAN and also destroys the Work of Jesus (AS A HUMAN BEING) that is EXACTLY IN EVERY WAY LIKE WE ARE. You are just as much in the camp of those who separate Jesus from our identity as the Trinitarians are rather you understand that or not Mike. IMO

peace and love……………………..gene

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,07:24)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 20 2010,04:03) To the point of this thread. Your doctrine’s fruit is doubt of Christ as our perfect example. Questions about God’s intentions for a pre-existent son. Contradictions with scripture that says He is like us (his brethren) in EVERY way or that he was human at all. Hi Martian, My fruit is that I not only follow and believe scripture, but point those scriptures out to others who might be a little confused at the time. That's what I've done and will keep doing.  As far as why God would send pre-existent Jesus to atone for our sins, I'll point you to Proverbs 3:5, Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; What the scriptures say do not hinge upon whether YOU understand why God would do what He did Martian.  I find it hard to understand why Uzzah was killed for trying to keep the ark from falling off the cart.  What was the fruit of that scripture?  That we can hold certain possessions of ours so dear that even another man touching them is cause for his death?  That you can be killed by God just for trying to help out?  I know that's not the lesson……but that's a different subject anyway. The point is that it is NOT important whether or not you, a mere flawed human being, thinks there is not fruit in Jesus pre-existing.  The point is that scriptures say he did, so form your opinions AROUND the scriptures…….not INSTEAD of them. mike

Unfortunately that is not true. I do follow the scriptures. I follow everyone that depicts the plan of God. Do you? That is the purpose of the scripture. Scripture is to teach us and inform us of the plan that God has for mankind. You devise teaching from some secret method (that is none of our business) that hinders the plan of God written about all through scripture. You lessen the importance of following the plan of God by comparing it to three year olds learning to climb trees like monkeys. (as if learning some skill in the physical has anything to do with becoming like Christ.) Who is not following scripture?

As far as us not understanding every reason why God does a thing, that is true. However, God is just and fair as you have pointed out. He would not send an example and command us to follow in like manner then give that example knowledge or experiences (not available to us) that impact the way he did things. That would not be fair or just.

[martian]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 20 2010,22:06)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 15 2010,02:14) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 14 2010,07:30) Quote (martian @ Sep. 14 2010,03:33) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 11 2010,10:23) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,10:39) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,08:11) Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53) Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19) Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45) Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20) George, You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope?  How does it do that? Where did I say that? Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches. Perhaps I don't quite understand your question. Georg You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.” The truth you say you have is the pre-0existence of Jesus. I want to know how that” truth” gives you hope? How does it make Christ more of an example for us? How does it show us a clear pattern that we can follow? The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact. “”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.””” You even quoted what I said; so why do you want to spin this into something else? Why would you say, the pre-existence of Jesus gives me hope? How can his pre-existence make Jesus a better example? How can his pre-existence show you a clearer pattern to follow? What does his pre-existence have to do with any of this? Nothing that I can see. Georg I understand that you do not see it. That is the problem. If you believe that Jesus had any advantage over the rest of humanity due to his pre-existence then you have partially negated his being an example for us. What hope can I gain from a creature doing anything if that creature is not like me? I have hope in overcoming because I have an example that is just like me that overcame. If Christ is different then me I cannot use him as an exact example. It creates doubt in what I can follow him in and what I cannot. How can I follow Christ and walk the paths that he walked if his path is determined by his pre-existence? Your doctrine moves Christ away from us just like the Trinity does. Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree? If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that? Yes, Jesus knew who he was, God's son, and he knew were he came from, heaven. He was a spirit being “in” heaven, but not while he was on earth. If you call that an advantage, than yes it was, but, do you think any one else could have accomplished, what he accomplished, not sinned? had he sinned, he could not have died for ours. He was “all” man,  Hbr 2:16   For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (flesh) We are to imitate him, but God knows that we will not accomplish what Jesus did; that is why he died for us, his pre-existence has nothing to do with that. What path are you trying to follow? you can never “BE” Christ, what is it that Jesus ask us to do? Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.   That's all you have to do, I think you will find, that's hard enough. “””Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his pre-existence. Do you agree?””” YES “””So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us.””” I disagree, Jhn 8:28   Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.   God is not asking the impossible from us, so relax. Georg You contradict yourself. “He was “all” man,” but yet you say he had knowledge we do not posses and never could from so called pre-existence. That is a contradiction. His overcoming is supposed to be an example to us and yet you say he had some advantage in knowledge that would have influenced his ability to overcome. How do we follow that example. You doctrine is just silly and non-sense. It defeats Christ as our example. So if you had lived in heaven before being born on Earth and you had memories of that time, you would not be effected by that? That would not influence your decisions? Come on, show a little bit of reason here. I am not sure what you are trying to prove with Heb 2 but maybe try the context — 14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (NOTICE IT SAY IN ALL THINGS. IT DOES NOT SAY IN ALL THINGS EXCEPT PRE-EXISTENCE KNOWLEDGE) 18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body. God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being. The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure. How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new. Job 14:14   If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.   Job 14:15   Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.   Job 33:25   His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:   Why do you try to read something into scripture that is not there? Do you not ask God for his Holy Spirit to give you power to overcome sin? on your own you will never succeed. That is what we are to do, Jesus never sinned, even though he was tempted in all things, that “IS” how we are to imitate Jesus, but God knows we will fail many times, read this. 1Jo 1:6   If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:   1Jo 1:7   But if we walk in the light (truth), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.   1Jo 1:8   If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.   God knows we are sinners, and we “will” sin. 1Jo 1:9   If we confess our sins (ask for forgiveness), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.   If we think, because Jesus died for our sins, and therefore don't have to ask for forgiveness, we fool our-self. 1Jo 1:10   If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.   Are you trying the impossible, or just looking for an excuse not to try at all? Georg You say- It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body. God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being. The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure. Reply- First none of you have yet defined (scripturally) what you mean by Spirit Being. That term does not exist in scripture. If you are going to use the scripture that Christ became a life giving spirit literally, then you must say that Christ literally became moving air or a wind. Making the term “spirit” an animated being is the same thing the Trinitarians do to make the spirit the third person of the trinity. Secondly the scripture certainly indicates we can have the full measure of the Spirit. Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness. Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. You say- How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new. Reply — First you use as proof an assumption that Christ WAS a Spirit Being before his birth to Mary. Second – Was Christ resurrected to be born to Mary? Did Christ die before being born to Mary? Is there any way for one person to become like another that has been resurrected? No, we are ask to walk on this Earth in the same manner he walked on this Earth. Making decisions like him which must be made based on the same criteria/knowledge as he had. We cannot walk like him on the Earth if his walk is based on knowledge or criteria that we cannot acquire. You make as much sense as a dryer in the dessert. Georg George, I mean no disrespect but your posts show a lack of education in any form of proper interpretation principles. I am sorry that you have not had the opportunity to learn such things. Martian!  In spite of the lack of Education my Husband unfortunately has, (because of the war) He has more knowledge then the average Human Being.  He has taught Himself so much. Also His knowledge on Ancient History is outstanding.  Besides God tells us that He will take the meek and the little men and make a Professor out of Him. Paraphrasing it. You also have no idea what He does for others.  So you better stop attacking Him….. You already have two tiles.  Five and you are gone….. Just remember that….. Peace Irene

There was no attack intended or given. You have read things into my post that is not there.

[martian]

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 20 2010,22:10)

Martian!  One more thing.  Why don't you go to Germany, and learn German, and we will see how many mistakes you will make, as far as your education on that language  goes……Irene:(

What does that have to do with anything. I am sure I would make mistakes learning a new language. All the more reason that if you do not have the education in Hebrew or Greek language or culture that you might either learn it or listen to those that have.

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 20 2010,12:06)

I'm going to start calling you “Repeat”, Gene.  That's all you ever do. Gene: Quote Mike………What martian has said is right brother if you put all scripture together concerning the Man Jesus you should see clearly that Jesus never preexisted his berth on earth except in the For Knowledge and Plan God. Aren't those last 10 words of Phil 2:7 a part of “all scripture” Gene?  You know, the ones that say “and was made in the likeness of a human being”.  When will you guys ever “put that scripture together” with the others? Gene: Quote Mike even if you disregard me you still have martian and barely both are telling you the truth brother. IMO So now we have Pete, Pete and Repeat!     Not one of you guys wants to deal with scripture itself, only your wishes.  For you guys, your “logical deduction” that God wouldn't do it that way is enough to override what the scriptures really say.   Let me know when any of you want to actually address what else those last 10 words in Phil 2:7 could mean…….since you all seem to think that they didn't mean he existed in another form before being made in the likeness of a human being. Scripture, scripture, scripture, Gene.  Your OPINIONS and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee. mike

I have dealt with your scriptures on Phil several times.
If Jesus being in the form of God proves his pre-existence then according to that “truth” so did Adam. The word “image” as in created in the image of God means form. Adam was created in the form of God.

As to his being in the likeness of men so am I? Did I pre-exist. I am made in the likeness of other men so was Jesus. It has nothing to do with any so-caloled pre-existence.

[terraricca]

martian

you say

Quote

As to his being in the likeness of men so am I? Did I pre-exist. I am made in the likeness of other men so was Jesus. It has nothing to do with any so-caloled pre-existence

lets make something clear, that the expression that men is made in the likeness of God ,would mean that he as spiritual qualities,because God is spirit not flesh
in the case of Jesus he has been made to the likeness of man ,this does not mean that he received the same things that Adam received,because Christ is a spirit ,so the likeness for Christ, would be, being covered by flesh and appear as looking like men.

Pierre

[martian]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 20 2010,14:08)

Martian this are fruits, Living by the Holy Spirit’s Power Gal 5:16 So I say, live by the Holy Spirit’s power. Then you will not do what your sinful nature wants you to do. Gal 5:17 The sinful nature does not want what the Spirit delights in. And the Spirit does not want what the sinful nature delights in. The two are at war with each other. That’s what makes you do what you don’t want to do. Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the authority of the law. Gal 5:19 What the sinful nature does is clear. It enjoys sexual sins, impure acts and wild living. Gal 5:20 It worships statues of gods. It also worships evil powers. It is full of hatred and fighting. It is full of jealousy and fits of anger. It is interested only in getting ahead. It stirs up trouble. It separates people into their own little groups. Gal 5:21 It wants what others have. It gets drunk and takes part in wild parties. It does many things of that kind. I warn you now as I did before. People who live like that will not receive God’s kingdom. Gal 5:22 But the fruit the Holy Spirit produces is love, joy and peace. It is being patient, kind and good. It is being faithful Gal 5:23 and gentle and having control of oneself. There is no law against things of that kind. Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed their sinful nature to his cross. They don’t want what their sinful nature loves and longs for. Gal 5:25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us march in step with the Spirit. Gal 5:26 Let us not become proud. Let us not make each other angry. Let us not want what belongs to others Jn 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus. “Don’t you understand these things? Jn 3:11 “What I’m about to tell you is true. We speak about what we know. We give witness to what we have seen. But still you people do not accept our witness. Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you about earthly things, and you do not believe. So how will you believe if I speak about heavenly things? the fruits is something what is received after we receive the words of God in our hearth,and this is only possible through Christ and his father truth. if you still looking for it would imply that you have not receive any. Pierre

I did not ask for fruits of the Spirit. I ask for fruits of doctrines/teachings of scripture. However, it is interesting that you think I need them. Since when Did God give up the right to judge me and give it to you?

[martian]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 21 2010,03:32)

martian you say Quote As to his being in the likeness of men so am I?  Did I pre-exist. I am made in the likeness of other men so was Jesus. It has nothing to do with any so-caloled pre-existence lets make something clear, that the expression  that men is made in the likeness of God ,would mean that he as spiritual qualities,because God is spirit not flesh in the case of Jesus he has been made to the likeness of man ,this does not mean that he received the same things that Adam received,because Christ is a spirit  ,so the likeness for Christ, would be, being covered by flesh and appear as looking like men. Pierre

What does likeness mean in Hebrew? How about image?
Start there instead of your opinion.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 21 2010,02:25)

As far as us not understanding every reason why God does a thing, that is true. However, God is just and fair as you have pointed out. He would not send an example and command us to follow in like manner then give that example knowledge or experiences (not available to us) that impact the way he did things. That would not be fair or just.

Hi Martian,

But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian.  Just like it used to be my flawed, sinful man's opinion that God didn't treat Uzzah with fairness and justness.  I have since come to realize that what might seem unfair or unjust to us is absolutely the MOST fair and just way it could have been done.  Why?  Because that's the way our God did it.

We can't presume to question God's justness by comparing it to what we might think is fair, right?  If you could keep yourself from totally denying the fact that Jesus could have pre-existed, just because it doesn't line up with YOUR view of what is fair – just for a moment – you might be able to read all the scriptures that make it clear he DID pre-exist without your self-inflicted blindness getting in the way.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 21 2010,03:00)

I have dealt with your scriptures on Phil several times. If Jesus being in the form of God proves his pre-existence then according to that “truth” so did Adam. The word “image” as in created in the image of God means form. Adam was created in the form of God. As to his being in the likeness of men so am I?  Did I pre-exist. I am made in the likeness of other men so was Jesus. It has nothing to do with any so-caloled pre-existence.

Hi Martian,

Now put it together like Phil 2 does.  There is a number of events that happened progressively.

1.  Was existing in the form of God
2.  Didn't consider being equal to his God for a second, but instead…
3.  Emptied himself (of what?)
4.  Took on a slave's form
5.  Was made in the likeness of a human being

Now you say #1 happened while he was a human being.  So what does #5 even mean then?  How can someone who is already human being be made into a human being?

I know this is your thread.  I know it isn't supposed to be about Phil 2.  But I think it was totally unfair of you to bail out on the debate just to start up several other threads designed to promote non-preexistence – without ever going through any of the scrutiny we were giving your “opinions”.

Irene spent hours of her time quoting scriptures to you in the pre-existent thread, and you responded with nothing more than your philosophical viewpoints, wishes and opinions.  And after seeing how you were treating her, I thought maybe if we broke it down scripture by scripture, we might be able to show you how clearly the Bible DOES say that Jesus pre-existed.

But you bailed, claiming “irreconcilable differences” as you went – all because I didn't think it was important to post a 500 word thesis about how, step by step, I came to my understanding.  

How much Hebrew cultural knowledge does one need to see that Phil 2 says Jesus was in one form, but then was made into another one?

You owe it to us who put hours of time into this to either refute the last 10 words of Phil 7, or pipe down about the subject altogether.  I mean, how can an honest person expect to be respected if he spouts some stuff, has that stuff solidly refuted, and instead of rebutting the refute, he cowers away…….just to spout the first stuff all over again somewhere else?

t8 posted a thread a while ago about starting a “serious students” forum, where people aren't allowed to do what you did here.  If you make a claim that is solidly refuted, and you cannot defend your claim against the evidence against it, you will not be allowed to make that claim anywhere else period, until you are able to defend it.  I hope he does start that forum.  He aptly called it “A forum where people cannot run away”, or something close to that.

So Martian, what custom of Hebrew culture, rule of Greek grammar, or multitude of scriptures allows for someone who already IS a human being to be made into one?

peace and love,
mike

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,12:35)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 21 2010,03:00) I have dealt with your scriptures on Phil several times. If Jesus being in the form of God proves his pre-existence then according to that “truth” so did Adam. The word “image” as in created in the image of God means form. Adam was created in the form of God. As to his being in the likeness of men so am I?  Did I pre-exist. I am made in the likeness of other men so was Jesus. It has nothing to do with any so-caloled pre-existence. Hi Martian, Now put it together like Phil 2 does.  There is a number of events that happened progressively. 1.  Was existing in the form of God 2.  Didn't consider being equal to his God for a second, but instead… 3.  Emptied himself (of what?) 4.  Took on a slave's form 5.  Was made in the likeness of a human being Now you say #1 happened while he was a human being.  So what does #5 even mean then?  How can someone who is already human being be made into a human being? I know this is your thread.  I know it isn't supposed to be about Phil 2.  But I think it was totally unfair of you to bail out on the debate just to start up several other threads designed to promote non-preexistence – without ever going through any of the scrutiny we were giving your “opinions”. Irene spent hours of her time quoting scriptures to you in the pre-existent thread, and you responded with nothing more than your philosophical viewpoints, wishes and opinions.  And after seeing how you were treating her, I thought maybe if we broke it down scripture by scripture, we might be able to show you how clearly the Bible DOES say that Jesus pre-existed. But you bailed, claiming “irreconcilable differences” as you went – all because I didn't think it was important to post a 500 word thesis about how, step by step, I came to my understanding.   How much Hebrew cultural knowledge does one need to see that Phil 2 says Jesus was in one form, but then was made into another one? You owe it to us who put hours of time into this to either refute the last 10 words of Phil 7, or pipe down about the subject altogether.  I mean, how can an honest person expect to be respected if he spouts some stuff, has that stuff solidly refuted, and instead of rebutting the refute, he cowers away…….just to spout the first stuff all over again somewhere else? t8 posted a thread a while ago about starting a “serious students” forum, where people aren't allowed to do what you did here.  If you make a claim that is solidly refuted, and you cannot defend your claim against the evidence against it, you will not be allowed to make that claim anywhere else period, until you are able to defend it.  I hope he does start that forum.  He aptly called it “A forum where people cannot run away”, or something close to that. So Martian, what custom of Hebrew culture, rule of Greek grammar, or multitude of scriptures allows for someone who already IS a human being to be made into one? peace and love, mike

As I said before, Phil 2 is a direct comparison between Adam and Christ. Jesus was in the form of God. Adam was created in the image of God which is defined as form. Image means form.
And it does not say Christ was made in the likeness of man, it says he was found in the likeness of men. It is simply saying that he was like other men.
People looked at him and saw a man. Why? because he was made in the form of God just like Adam.
A=Adam
B=Form of God/humanity
C=Christ
A=B and C=B C has to be equal to A

As to all of your prostrations about why I will not engage with you on your threads you may judge my motives all you want. I suppose you must get used to usurping God position after a while. I have searched my heart and I find no fault before God in my actions. What fault you find in me is of no consequence. I do find it interesting that you speak of fairness and yet insist on keeping your methods of interpretation hidden in secret. Why would I ever consider engaging in very much time with a person of this persuasion? Again, An honest person either seeking truth or attempting to teach some truth does not act in such a manner.

[mikeboll64]

Martian:

Quote

And it does not say Christ was made in the likeness of man, it says he was found in the likeness of men. It is simply saying that he was like other men.

Finally!  A bite!  Are you ready to put your money where your mouth is Martian?

It says, “and was made in the likeness of a human being”.

The word “ginomai” is in the Greek scriptures 678 times according to NETBible.  Out of the one hundred different ways they translate it, “found” is not one of them.  

The last word, “anthropos”, means “a human being”.  So whether it's translated as “was made in human likeness” like the NIV puts it, or “was made in the likeness of men”, the point is that it means “human being”.  Just like if I say “man has been around for 6000 years”, I mean “mankind” or “human beings”.

These are the facts Martian.  What do you say to them?

mike

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 22 2010,14:01)

Martian: Quote And it does not say Christ was made in the likeness of man, it says he was found in the likeness of men. It is simply saying that he was like other men. Finally!  A bite!  Are you ready to put your money where your mouth is Martian? It says, “and was made in the likeness of a human being”. The word “ginomai” is in the Greek scriptures 678 times according to NETBible.  Out of the one hundred different ways they translate it, “found” is not one of them.   The last word, “anthropos”, means “a human being”.  So whether it's translated as “was made in human likeness” like the NIV puts it, or “was made in the likeness of men”, the point is that it means “human being”.  Just like if I say “man has been around for 6000 years”, I mean “mankind” or “human beings”. These are the facts Martian.  What do you say to them? mike

You said –
The word “ginomai” is in the Greek scriptures 678 times according to NETBible. Out of the one hundred different ways they translate it, “found” is not one of them.

Reply-
What does that prove? You find one translation that does not use found and think you know something?
Phil 2:8 uses the term “found” in the following –
NIV
NAS
KJV
ESV
NKJV
ASV
Young’s Literal translation
Wycliffe New Testament
Darby Translation
And I stopped checking after I got these. There are likely more.
Here are nine translations that use the term found against the one that you have quoted. Sorry you are out voted and out interpreted.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (martian @ Sep. 23 2010,06:36)

Reply- What does that prove? You find one translation that does not use found and think you know something? Phil 2:8 uses the term “found” in the following –

Hi Martian,

Why are you talking about 2:8?  I am asking you about the last part of 2:7.  Miscommunication, I guess.  Yes, it is NOT the Greek word “ginomai”in 2:8, and can easily mean “found”.

But you are side stepping the last words of 2:7…….the part that implies Jesus existed in another form before coming in the flesh.  I'll repost it for you:

Now put it together like Phil 2:6-7 does.  There is a number of events that happened progressively.

1.  Was existing in the form of God
2.  Didn't consider being equal to his God for a second, but instead…
3.  Emptied himself (of what?)
4.  Took on a slave's form
5.  Was made in the likeness of a human being (these are the last words of 2:7)

Now you say #1 happened while he was a human being.  So what does #5 even mean then?  

How can someone who is already human being be made into a human being?

mike

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2010,14:58)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 23 2010,06:36) Reply- What does that prove? You find one translation that does not use found and think you know something? Phil 2:8 uses the term “found” in the following – Hi Martian, Why are you talking about 2:8?  I am asking you about the last part of 2:7.  Miscommunication, I guess.  Yes, it is NOT the Greek word “ginomai”in 2:8, and can easily mean “found”. But you are side stepping the last words of 2:7…….the part that implies Jesus existed in another form before coming in the flesh.  I'll repost it for you: Now put it together like Phil 2:6-7 does.  There is a number of events that happened progressively. 1.  Was existing in the form of God 2.  Didn't consider being equal to his God for a second, but instead… 3.  Emptied himself (of what?) 4.  Took on a slave's form 5.  Was made in the likeness of a human being (these are the last words of 2:7) Now you say #1 happened while he was a human being.  So what does #5 even mean then?   How can someone who is already human being be made into a human being? mike

First look at the text as it appears in the Greek manuscripts. There are no punctuation, capitols or verse divisions in the originals. Those were added by (as you say) mere sinful men.

have this attitude in yourselves which was also in christ jesus who although he existed in the form of god did not regard equality with god a thing to be grasped but emptied himself taking the form of a bond-servant and being made in the likeness of men being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death even death on a cross.
Thee is no way to tell where sentences ended and a new one began.
The following phrase could be included in one sentence. Either way it is possible that it is simple repeating what was said before.
being made in the likeness of men being found in appearance as a man

You seem to want to imply or prove that Christ was “made” as in changed from on type of being into another. He was a spirit being in heaven who either became a man or took on the shell of a man’s carcus. However the primary meaning of the word “made” does not support that opinion.

1.to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
(I agree with this one that says he came into existence)
2.to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a.of events
(Yes it happened)
3.to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a.of men appearing in public
(Yes, Christ appeared in public and at a specific time in history just as you and I did.)

None of these definition indicate a change from one form of being to another.

AS to your questions –
1. Was existing in the form of God

Answer –
Jesus was created in the form of God which has the same definition as Image of God. So he was human.

2. Didn't consider being equal to his God for a second, but instead…

Answer –
You misquote the verse. He did not think being equal with God a thing to be grasped. This again is a direct comparison with Adam who did attempt to be equal with God by partaking of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and being like God.

3. Emptied himself (of what?)
Answer-
First rule of interpretation – Context Context Context. The context is about “Attitude” as is pointed out in the beginning.
4. Took on a slave's form
5. Was made in the likeness of a human being (these are the last words of 2:7)
Answer-
What does this even mean. You infer that this was a secondary event. There are no words that infer an additional event or that he was made from one form of being to another. In fact the word made shows that he came into existence or came into being as a human. This denies the possibility that he existed as some other being.

[GeneBalthrop]

Martian………..Amen Brother. You have spelled it out correctly. They are so determined to separate Jesus from our exact Identity with Him, they have no idea of the damage those false teachings do. IMO

peace and love to you and yours martian……………………………….gene

[martian]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 21 2010,11:57)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 21 2010,02:25) As far as us not understanding every reason why God does a thing, that is true. However, God is just and fair as you have pointed out. He would not send an example and command us to follow in like manner then give that example knowledge or experiences (not available to us) that impact the way he did things. That would not be fair or just. Hi Martian, But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian.  Just like it used to be my flawed, sinful man's opinion that God didn't treat Uzzah with fairness and justness.  I have since come to realize that what might seem unfair or unjust to us is absolutely the MOST fair and just way it could have been done.  Why?  Because that's the way our God did it. We can't presume to question God's justness by comparing it to what we might think is fair, right?  If you could keep yourself from totally denying the fact that Jesus could have pre-existed, just because it doesn't line up with YOUR view of what is fair – just for a moment – you might be able to read all the scriptures that make it clear he DID pre-exist without your self-inflicted blindness getting in the way. mike

You say-
But that is only a flawed, sinful man's opinion, Martian.

Reply-
Since you have stayed in hiding about your methods used to come to your conclusions, everything you have ever posted is just the opinion of a flawed sinful man. (A dishonest one too)

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