Show me the fruit

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 14 2010,07:30)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 14 2010,03:33)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 11 2010,10:23)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,10:39)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,08:11)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20)

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.

Georg

You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”
The truth you say you have is the pre-0existence of Jesus. I want to know how that” truth” gives you hope?
How does it make Christ more of an example for us?
How does it show us a clear pattern that we can follow?

The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact.

“”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”””

You even quoted what I said; so why do you want to spin this into something else?
Why would you say, the pre-existence of Jesus gives me hope?
How can his pre-existence make Jesus a better example?
How can his pre-existence show you a clearer pattern to follow?
What does his pre-existence have to do with any of this? Nothing that I can see.

Georg

I understand that you do not see it. That is the problem. If you believe that Jesus had any advantage over the rest of humanity due to his pre-existence then you have partially negated his being an example for us.
What hope can I gain from a creature doing anything if that creature is not like me?
I have hope in overcoming because I have an example that is just like me that overcame. If Christ is different then me I cannot use him as an exact example. It creates doubt in what I can follow him in and what I cannot.
How can I follow Christ and walk the paths that he walked if his path is determined by his pre-existence?
Your doctrine moves Christ away from us just like the Trinity does.
Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree?
If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that?

Yes, Jesus knew who he was, God's son, and he knew were he came from, heaven. He was a spirit being “in” heaven, but not while he was on earth. If you call that an advantage, than yes it was, but, do you think any one else could have accomplished, what he accomplished, not sinned? had he sinned, he could not have died for ours.
He was “all” man,

Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (flesh)

We are to imitate him, but God knows that we will not accomplish what Jesus did; that is why he died for us, his pre-existence has nothing to do with that.
What path are you trying to follow? you can never “BE” Christ, what is it that Jesus ask us to do?

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

That's all you have to do, I think you will find, that's hard enough.

“””Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his pre-existence. Do you agree?”””

YES

“””So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us.”””

I disagree,

Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

God is not asking the impossible from us, so relax.

Georg

You contradict yourself.
“He was “all” man,” but yet you say he had knowledge we do not posses and never could from so called pre-existence. That is a contradiction.
His overcoming is supposed to be an example to us and yet you say he had some advantage in knowledge that would have influenced his ability to overcome. How do we follow that example.
You doctrine is just silly and non-sense. It defeats Christ as our example.
So if you had lived in heaven before being born on Earth and you had memories of that time, you would not be effected by that? That would not influence your decisions? Come on, show a little bit of reason here.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with Heb 2 but maybe try the context —
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
(NOTICE IT SAY IN ALL THINGS. IT DOES NOT SAY IN ALL THINGS EXCEPT PRE-EXISTENCE KNOWLEDGE)
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body.
God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being.
The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure.
How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when
you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:

Why do you try to read something into scripture that is not there? Do you not ask God for his Holy Spirit to give you power to overcome sin? on your own you will never succeed.
That is what we are to do, Jesus never sinned, even though he was tempted in all things, that “IS” how we are to imitate Jesus, but God knows we will fail many times, read this.

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light (truth), as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

God knows we are sinners, and we “will” sin.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (ask for forgiveness), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we think, because Jesus died for our sins, and therefore don't have to ask for forgiveness, we fool our-self.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Are you trying the impossible, or just looking for an excuse not to try at all?

Georg

You say-
It seems, what you are debating is his mind, not his body.
God gave him (Jesus) a flesh body, but his mind/spirit was the same that he had as a spirit being.
The advantage he had over us, he was full of God's Holy Spirit, while God gives us of his Holy Spirit in measure.

Reply-
First none of you have yet defined (scripturally) what you mean by Spirit Being. That term does not exist in scripture. If you are going to use the scripture that Christ became a life giving spirit literally, then you must say that Christ literally became moving air or a wind. Making the term “spirit” an animated being is the same thing the Trinitarians do to make the spirit the third person of the trinity.
Secondly the scripture certainly indicates we can have the full measure of the Spirit.
Acts 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

You say-
How can you call his knowledge of his existence as a spirit being a contradiction; it is no different then when you come up in the resurrection, and know all about how you lived before you died, your mind/spirit will be the same, your body will be new.

Reply —
First you use as proof an assumption that Christ WAS a Spirit Being before his birth to Mary.
Second –
Was Christ resurrected to be born to Mary?
Did Christ die before being born to Mary?
Is there any way for one person to become like another that has been resurrected? No, we are ask to walk on this Earth in the same manner he walked on this Earth. Making decisions like him which must be made based on the same criteria/knowledge as he had.
We cannot walk like him on the Earth if his walk is based on knowledge or criteria that we cannot acquire.

You make as much sense as a dryer in the dessert.

Georg

George,
I mean no disrespect but your posts show a lack of education in any form of proper interpretation principles. I am sorry that you have not had the opportunity to learn such things.

September 14, 2010 at 3:22 pm#216380

Participant

Mike………..That is the difference alright , you preexistence give Jesus a great advantage over us humans , so why then relate with him on any human level after all he (REALLY) was (NOT) like we are, But God was just teasing us with a desguised angle morphed into a human being and had him put on a front for us all and deceive us into thinking he was really like we are when in fact he was nothing like us at all. A disguised human shrouded with MYSTERY and Only acted as a Human but in reality was a GOD or Demigod of some kind. So You are not alone in this view the GNOSTIC'S are more of you brothers because they believe that way to. They believed Jesus was truly not a Human being , and the Apostle John said their Beliefs were the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist. so what is the Spirit of Antichrist anyway it is the (INTELLECT) that believes Jesus was not exactly as we are, people who came into existence as a human beings. They (Gnostic's) were the original Preexistences they said Jesus shot out from the Plora (the place of the Gods)and came to earth disguised as a human, but in fact was not really pure human. This seem to fit your view right Mike?

peace and love……………………………gene

September 15, 2010 at 3:25 am#216426

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2010,02:22)

Mike………..That is the difference alright , you preexistence give Jesus a great advantage over us humans , so why then relate with him on any human level

Gene,

Jesus is my Lord and Savior. He is my King and the much beloved Son of my God who chose to give him all power and authority to rule in His stead for a while.

I revere him…..I don't “relate to him on a human level” as if I'm his equal. I have never been his equal and never will be.

I do find comfort in the fact that he came for a time as a human being so he has a first hand account of our aches and pains and weaknesses and hungers and thirsts etc. I take comfort in the fact that he came to show us that even as a human being, he could still follow his God and devote his life to doing his God's will. That was the example Gene. That even as human beings, we can resist the temptations of the earth and it's god, Satan, and have complete faith that if we put God's will above our own, we will receive fantastic rewards.

He emptied himself of the glory he had in heaven at the right hand of his God to embody himself in the “carcass” of human skin. That shows the lengths to which both he and his God would go so that we humans might have another chance to be one with God again.

He gave his life for us to atone for our sins. And to show how much he truly loves us…..for man knows no greater love than the love shown by one laying down his own life for the sake of others. And to show that with God, there really IS life after death.

This man Jesus was NEVER exactly like us Gene. From his very conception he was better than we will ever be.

mike

September 15, 2010 at 4:42 pm#216481

Participant

Mike……….Well you just dealt yourself out of the deck, you can (NEVER) be Like Jesus so as He was you are NOT right? GOD is to weak to truly create us into the (full measure of Christs) right. My what a sad outlook brother. You can't even identify with Jesus as a brother, so how could you ever HOPE to be LIKE HIM. And What sadness the think GOD Himself can't even produce in you and others the fullness of Jesus. Can't you see what your belief has done to you as well as others. Do you really believe we shall all see Him (AS HE IS), and AS HE IS SO ARE WE> Mike that is sad brother i do feel sorrow for you you hope is so diminished by your preexistence dogmas.
“The student is not above his teacher, it is enough the He be Just like his teacher” Jesus is our teacher and we must become Just like HIM in every way and we must overcome even or (Just like) he did. Bu the power of GOD in Us, we are identified in the exactness of Christ Jesus, we are no different then He is, what God did for Him, He also can do For US.

peace and love to you and yours Mike……………………………..gene

September 16, 2010 at 1:30 am#216520

Blocked

Gene:

Quote

Mike……….Well you just dealt yourself out of the deck, you can (NEVER) be Like Jesus

Where did I say that?

Gene:

Quote

GOD is to weak to truly create us into the (full measure of Christs) right.

Where did I say that?

Gene:

Quote

You can't even identify with Jesus as a brother, so how could you ever HOPE to be LIKE HIM.

The hope is to EVENTUALLY become a joint heir of God and brother to Jesus.

Gene:

Quote

And What sadness the think GOD Himself can't even produce in you and others the fullness of Jesus.

Where did I say that?

Gene:

Quote

Do you really believe we shall all see Him (AS HE IS), and AS HE IS SO ARE WE>

Yes. Some of us will see him for all eternity, and others of us will see him just for a moment while we are judged….then off to everlasting destruction.

Gene:

Quote

“The student is not above his teacher, it is enough the He be Just like his teacher” Jesus is our teacher and we must become Just like HIM in every way and we must overcome even or (Just like) he did.

Luke 6:40
A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

It doesn't say or mean “EXACTLY” like him Gene. We must STRIVE to be like him in every way possible for us. And he gave us the hope that we too can overcome this world, because he went before us to set the example and to show proof that it can be done.

Gene:

Quote

Bu the power of GOD in Us, we are identified in the exactness of Christ Jesus, we are no different then He is,

That isn't scriptural Gene. If it is, please list the scripture.

Gene:

Quote

what God did for Him, He also can do For US.

I agree.

Now that I've addressed EVERY single point you made, could you tell me how any of it hindges on whether or not Jesus pre-existed? Every true thing you posted is true whether or not Jesus pre-existed Gene. Can you see that?

peace and love,
mike

September 16, 2010 at 3:50 pm#216558

Participant

Gene,
I would appreciate if you would stop engaging mike about his subjects and not mine. This thread is about the fruit of doctrine. Not about whether anyone can (right or wrong) prove it scripturally. As long as you give Mike an avenue he is going to push his agenda. Let him go back to his dishonest scriptural debates on other threads. If he cannot tell me the fruits of his doctrine then he has no business posting on this thread.
Thanks
martian

September 16, 2010 at 4:03 pm#216560

Participant

Mike…….. This is my answer to you , Notice please.

Eph 3:19……And to know the love of Christ, which passes Knowledge, that you might be filled with (ALL) the (FULLNESS) of GOD.

Eph 4:13….> Till we (ALL) come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, UNTO A (PERFECT MAN), UNTO THE MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF THE (FULLNESS) OF CHRIST.

That means (exactly like in every way) Jesus is, and Mike you did say you could never be exactly like Jesus by separating His (exact) likeness of Us and giving him preexistence status as a preexisting (being). You have never produced any proof of his prior earth existence, tell us what was he doing or what was his name or for that matter produce any activity he had during the prior life.

peace and love………………..gene

September 17, 2010 at 3:42 am#216601

Blocked

Hey Gene,

Start a thread if you have scriptures/questions you think I've avoided. But right now, Martian is crying again because he's not getting his own way in his own thread, so we better stay on topic (which is a silly one anyway).

Here's my fruit Martian:

John 17:3 NWT
3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

I'm taking in knowledge of both of them by reading scripture and actually believing what it says, even if what it says makes me feel “inferior” to Jesus. It's about following and believing scripture Martian, not about ignoring clear scriptures because they don't fit in with our “wishes”. That is only fruit of your ego….to think you can re-write scriptures just because it would make you feel better about yourself.

You started this thread because you can't refute the scriptures that plainly say Jesus existed before the creation of the world. And you run away from those scriptural discussions like a coward because you KNOW you can't refute them. And to top it all off, instead of admitting that, you claim some lame excuse that it's because I didn't come to my understanding of the scriptures in a way that's acceptable to you. It doesn't really matter how I came to my understanding Martian. What matters is that the scriptures say Jesus was both the Root AND the Branch of David. What matters is that Jesus most definitely IS the Word of God, and that Word of God became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten Son. What matters is that scripture says Jesus was in the form of God, but then emptied himself to be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.

I don't need to get a doctorate in theology to understand that one last passage Martian. I don't need to know the whole history of the Hebrew culture to understand that Jesus was in one form, but then was MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.

But I guess I shouldn't expect someone like you to do anything but cover your ears and eyes and run when confronted with solid proof that your doctrine is false. Again, your fruit is the fruit of man's ego.

Enjoy your thread.

mike

September 17, 2010 at 3:05 pm#216632

Participant

Mike…………..Martian is right you seem so indoctrinated that you can't even begin to see the errors in the doctrine of Preexistence of Jesus as some kind of Being what by the way you have never exactly what the Being was, was it and Angle , a demigod , a God, a archangel, an invisible creature of some kind, perhaps he was Michale the Archangel as the JW's think, what was he Mike? Being you so sure He preexisted please supply the information IF YOU can.

But addressing martian point, i must say who can you demonstrate the fruits of someone who is not like you and why should we make an endeavor of any kind seeing that person is not like us, I will tell you this i personally have had hundreds of Prayers and many Miracles given me in my life . And i alway ask GOD the FATHER HIMSELF and I Pray to HIM alone as my GOD, and no other. Paul said “tell me this He that works miracles among you does he do it by the works of the law or by hearing of your faith.” Point is there were obviously many miracles being preformed among them for him to say that right? Now ask yourself how many miracles have you have seen in you life lately. That would give you some idea of You Faith and Who it is IN, as Answered Prayers are a Fruit of GOD working in a persons life. Jesus even said GREATER Work then What He did is possible for us ALL who believe. IMO

peace and love ………………………..gene

September 17, 2010 at 5:26 pm#216639

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 17 2010,14:42)

Hey Gene,

Here's my fruit Martian:

John 17:3 NWT
3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Enjoy your thread.

mike

Ypou say-

Here's my fruit Martian:

John 17:3 NWT
3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

I'm taking in knowledge of both of them by reading scripture and actually believing what it says,

Reply-
Really? All I have seen is your ability to take a man’s English translation and act as if it had been penned by the Apostles and prophets themselves. When others have studied the original languages and cultures you say it is not important. The truth is you do not believe what the scriptures say you believe a modern English translation of the scripture.

You continue –
even if what it says makes me feel “inferior” to Jesus. It's about following and believing scripture Martian,

Reply-
It is not about following scripture at the cost of the plan of God. Scripture is a tool to be used to further us along in becoming like Christ. When your personal interpretation defeats that purpose then you destroy the entire reason for the scripture.
The fruit of any doctrine should be to move us ahead in the plan of God. It should change lives and mold our decision making process. Not just give us mental imagery.

You say-
You started this thread because you can't refute the scriptures that plainly say Jesus existed before the creation of the world.

Reply-
No! I started this thread to examine the fruit of the Pre-existence teaching.

You say-
And you run away from those scriptural discussions like a coward because you KNOW you can't refute them. And to top it all off, instead of admitting that, you claim some lame excuse that it's because I didn't come to my understanding of the scriptures in a way that's acceptable to you. It doesn't really matter how I came to my understanding Martian. What matters is that the scriptures say Jesus was both the Root AND the Branch of David. What matters is that Jesus most definitely IS the Word of God, and that Word of God became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten Son. What matters is that scripture says Jesus was in the form of God, but then emptied himself to be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING.

Reply-
Not acceptable to me? You are right about it not being about me. It is not. It is about honesty in interpretation practices. A subject you know little or nothing about. The fact that I choose to stand on honest principles and you do not does not make it about either of us. It makes it about integrity. Look that word up and think about it.
Furthermore I am not interested in your trolling for a comeback. All your scriptures are your opinions. You give no methods for determining how you came to your conclusions. You read an English translation, do not consider any parallel scriptures or context or culture and think you know all about it. Then on top of it show disdain for anyone that takes the time to honestly research the matter.

You say-
But I guess I shouldn't expect someone like you to do anything but cover your ears and eyes and run when confronted with solid proof that your doctrine is false. Again, your fruit is the fruit of man's ego.

Reply –
Wacka Wacka Wacka – there you go again making accusations instead of showing any good fruit.

September 17, 2010 at 5:42 pm#216640

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2010,14:25)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2010,02:22)

Mike………..That is the difference alright , you preexistence give Jesus a great advantage over us humans , so why then relate with him on any human level

Gene,

Jesus is my Lord and Savior. He is my King and the much beloved Son of my God who chose to give him all power and authority to rule in His stead for a while.

I revere him…..I don't “relate to him on a human level” as if I'm his equal. I have never been his equal and never will be.

This man Jesus was NEVER exactly like us Gene. From his very conception he was better than we will ever be.

mike

Reply-
You continue to contradict yourself. On one hand you say that he came to show us how a human being can overcome sin and be raised from the dead and then you say he simply took on the “carcus” of a human. Did you and I take on a carcus in the same manner. According to you no! You say he is different from birth so he is different then us, How can he be an example if he is different?
You have never specified in what way Christ was different then us. You can’t because there are no scriptures to show that. It is left up to guesswork and speculation. There is no fruit in that. How can I take hope in an afterlife if the only example I have is some super human with untold knowledge and who knows what else? You are just like the Trinitarians that claim Jesus is God. How does a God being raised from the dead or overcoming sin help me do it? I can take no example or hope from that.

You say my thread is silly. What is really silly are those doctrines that do nothing to increase my ability to become like Christ. What is silly are those doctrines that bring doubt on the hope built from the example a human being raised from the dead or overcoming the world.
(And please do not try the dodge of saying that Christ is human because you really do not believe it. If Christ pre-existed in any form and that pre-existence carried anything into his Earthly life, then he was not a pure human being and therefore his example cannot be pure either.)

September 17, 2010 at 9:44 pm#216661

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 17 2010,14:42)

Hey Gene,

Here's my fruit Martian:

John 17:3 NWT
3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Enjoy your thread.

mike

You say-
It doesn't really matter how I came to my understanding Martian

Reply-
That is correct. It does not matter if you wish to continue walking and operating in darkness. I have many times produced the manner in which I establish my conclusions. On the other hand you refuse and make excuses. Your methods are hidden in secret and darkness. Honest people do not need to hide their methods in secrets. You have proven once again that you prefer the secret closets rather then to expose your methods to the light.

Luke 8:17 ” For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
Luke 11:35 ”Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness.
John 3:20 ” For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Ephesians 5:13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

Even now you refuse to be exposed to the light. I will enjoy my thread. You enjoy (by choice) your dark secrets.

September 18, 2010 at 2:06 am#216671

Blocked

Hi Martian,

You said:

Quote

You say he is different from birth so he is different then us, How can he be an example if he is different?

What does that even mean? That's the “monkey” point I was trying to make a while back. A being doesn't have to be exactly like us to be an example…..and I can't for the life of me understand how you ever came to the conclusion that it must be that way. God is also my example. He likes honest weights and measures, so I follow that example. He doesn't judge by outward appearance, so I follow that example. He is fair and just, so I follow that example to the best of my ability. He shows His love for mankind every single day, so I try to follow that example. And guess what Martian? God is not exactly like me, but He is still my best example of how I should act and what I should and shouldn't do.

You said:

Quote

All your scriptures are your opinions. You give no methods for determining how you came to your conclusions. You read an English translation, do not consider any parallel scriptures or context or culture and think you know all about it. Then on top of it show disdain for anyone that takes the time to honestly research the matter.

From what I saw, you didn't personally research anything. You just kept posting pages and pages of quotes from people who happen to agree with you. And each time, I came up with multiple questions that I wasn't able to ask Juan Whats-his-name or whoever else you posted. But I posted those questions to you, and got slammed with all kinds of insults instead of being answered.

So here's the deal: The last ten words of Phil 2:7 say,

And was made in the likeness of a human being.

These are the Greek words Martian, not some faulty English translation. Your mission, if you're not too scared, is to research anything you want until the cows come home and put these words in light of every other single scripture out there if you want…….but when all your research and study of Hebrew culture is finished, could you answer me one simple question?

How can anyone who already WAS a human being BE MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING?

Happy researching,
mike

September 19, 2010 at 5:03 pm#216800

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2010,13:06)

Hi Martian,

You said:

Quote

You say he is different from birth so he is different then us, How can he be an example if he is different?

What does that even mean? That's the “monkey” point I was trying to make a while back. A being doesn't have to be exactly like us to be an example…..and I can't for the life of me understand how you ever came to the conclusion that it must be that way. God is also my example. He likes honest weights and measures, so I follow that example. He doesn't judge by outward appearance, so I follow that example. He is fair an just, so I follow that example to the best of my ability. He shows His love for mankind every single day, so I try to follow that example. And guess what Martian? God is not exactly like me, but He is still my best example of how I should act and what I should and shouldn't do.

You said:

Quote

So here's the deal: The last ten words of Phil 2:7 say,

And was made in the likeness of a human being.

How can anyone who already WAS a human being BE MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING?

Happy researching,
mike

You say-

That's the “monkey” point I was trying to make a while back. A being doesn't have to be exactly like us to be an example…..and I can't for the life of me understand how you ever came to the conclusion that it must be that way.

Reply-
Where in scripture does it say that walking with God or becoming like Christ has anything to do with imitating things he did in the physical? Do I need to hold my glass the same way as Him or walk up a hill the same way as him? Mimicking the physical behavior of a monkey has nothing to do with becoming like Christ in character.

You say-
God is also my example. He likes honest weights and measures, so I follow that example. He doesn't judge by outward appearance, so I follow that example. He is fair an just, so I follow that example to the best of my ability. He shows His love for mankind every single day, so I try to follow that example. And guess what Martian? God is not exactly like me, but He is still my best example of how I should act and what I should and shouldn't do.

Reply-
It is true that God wants us to become like him in character, but it is not about just the acts of God but about the motives and intentions of the heart that produce those acts. What does it look like to have the motives and actions/character of God in any human being? Just look at Christ. It is about humanity having the character and motives of God as exemplified by the human being Jesus Christ. For thousands of years God gave examples, but none were perfect. All the prophets and leaders were to be used as examples but all failed to be perfect in what they were supposed to exemplify.
Unfortunately those that insist on just acting like Christ fall into the following problems.
22″(Many will say to Me on )that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23″And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
It is not about mimicking the acts of Christ or even using the power or gifts of God (which are without repentance) it is about becoming like Christ in character.
In order to develop character like Christ we must make decisions like Christ. In order to make decisions like Christ we must have the same information/knowledge as Christ onto which to base those decisions. Give Christ different info then us and his decision making method is altered in a way that we cannot follow.

Earlier you stated that God was just and fair and yet you promote teaching that says that he gives us an example that is different in ways that we cannot follow. Your teaching causes all kinds of questions about how Christ’s pre-existence affected his abilities to overcome. There are no scriptures that say we are to follow Christ in this but not in that. You have never specified how his pre-existence affected his abilities on Earth. In fact you have shown no reason at all why God would create a pre-existent being at all then change him to human and tell us he is our example. It serves no purpose and God does not do things without purpose.

To the point of this thread.
Your doctrine’s fruit is doubt of Christ as our perfect example. Questions about God’s intentions for a pre-existent son. Contradictions with scripture that says He is like us (his brethren) in EVERY way or that he was human at all.

With a human Christ there is no doubt that what he did, the info he had and the decisions he made were all within our grasp. The is no question that the same character that he developed through that which he suffered is open to us achieving it. Everything that he did (outside of his mantle/job as Messiah) is possible for us to do. Having a plan for mankind that is clear and without question is the way that a fair and just God works.

The context of scripture is the plan of God. The plan of God is the purpose and the reason for the scriptures. You agree that an integral part of God’s plan for man is using Christ as our example. When a person develops a teaching from scripture it must fit within and promote that aspect of God’s plan. Your teaching does not do that. Instead you want to augment God’s plan to accommodate your teaching. You augment it by forcing Christ out of the perfect example status as a normal human being. Your teaching gives him supernatural abilities/knowledge that is not available to us. This knowledge would necessarily affect the motives behind his decisions and the way he developed the character of God in himself. Then you try to cloud the issue by saying I want to make Christ like me. That is not true, I want to follow God’s plan for me to become like Christ. Your plan denies me the opportunity to become like Christ because Christ development is based on info/experiences I cannot have or poses.
For this reason I say your teaching is not scriptural. Your teaching falls outside of the context of the purpose of scripture which is the completion of God’s plan.It makes no difference whatsoever what you believe scripture says if it falls outside of God’s plan. It is not for you to augment God’s plan it is for you to develop teaching that fulfills and promotes God’s plan.
You call me a coward because I will not debate scripture with you. I Do not need to debate the scriptures with you to prove you wrong. All I need do is prove that your teaching detracts from the ultimate goal of God to make us like Christ. That I have done many times.

September 19, 2010 at 8:24 pm#216824

Blocked

Quote (martian @ Sep. 20 2010,04:03)

Hi Martian,

My fruit is that I not only follow and believe scripture, but point those scriptures out to others who might be a little confused at the time.

That's what I've done and will keep doing. As far as why God would send pre-existent Jesus to atone for our sins, I'll point you to Proverbs 3:5,

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

What the scriptures say do not hinge upon whether YOU understand why God would do what He did Martian. I find it hard to understand why Uzzah was killed for trying to keep the ark from falling off the cart. What was the fruit of that scripture? That we can hold certain possessions of ours so dear that even another man touching them is cause for his death? That you can be killed by God just for trying to help out? I know that's not the lesson……but that's a different subject anyway.

The point is that it is NOT important whether or not you, a mere flawed human being, thinks there is not fruit in Jesus pre-existing. The point is that scriptures say he did, so form your opinions AROUND the scriptures…….not INSTEAD of them.

mike

September 20, 2010 at 12:09 am#216854

Participant

Mike………What martian has said is right brother if you put all scripture together concerning the Man Jesus you should see clearly that Jesus never preexisted his berth on earth except in the For Knowledge and Plan God. GOD was not trying to save preexisting Angels or demigods, but he was dealing with mankind and he used a man to show us how GOD can perfect us and cause us to become (EXACTLY) as Jesus is a perfect man.

Mike you have bought into the false teachings of MYSTERY RELIGION and are Antichrist just as much as the Trinitarians are. The Jesus you create has made him different then us and separated our likeness of Him. From your view we can nt (HONESTLY) look at Jesus as a Human Being in the same way we can look at each other. Your view works against us seeing Jesus truly as ONE of US. You in fact can't really call him your Brother now can you?. Your Jesus is not my Jesus a Brother who our Father GOD has placed over OUR FAMILY, by His Father and MY Father, his God and My GOD. I believe you need to step back and see how much Jesus is actually identical to US, and realize Jesus was indeed (truly a son of man) just as we are in every way without exception, as regards to his humanity. And if you begin to understand that then you will begin to relate with Him and the Father on a more real level. Mike even if you disregard me you still have martian and barely both are telling you the truth brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

September 20, 2010 at 1:06 am#216861

Blocked

I'm going to start calling you “Repeat”, Gene. That's all you ever do.

Gene:

Quote

Mike………What martian has said is right brother if you put all scripture together concerning the Man Jesus you should see clearly that Jesus never preexisted his berth on earth except in the For Knowledge and Plan God.

Aren't those last 10 words of Phil 2:7 a part of “all scripture” Gene? You know, the ones that say “and was made in the likeness of a human being”. When will you guys ever “put that scripture together” with the others?

Gene:

Quote

Mike even if you disregard me you still have martian and barely both are telling you the truth brother. IMO

So now we have Pete, Pete and Repeat! Not one of you guys wants to deal with scripture itself, only your wishes. For you guys, your “logical deduction” that God wouldn't do it that way is enough to override what the scriptures really say.

Let me know when any of you want to actually address what else those last 10 words in Phil 2:7 could mean…….since you all seem to think that they didn't mean he existed in another form before being made in the likeness of a human being.

Scripture, scripture, scripture, Gene. Your OPINIONS and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee.

mike

September 20, 2010 at 2:01 am#216875

Participant

Mike………..You mean like the (SEED) of the women Shall brise the Head of the serpent.

You men like the scripture where Moses said GOD would raise up a “PROPHET” Like Him from their Brethern.

you mean like where it say the Son of “MAN” over fifty times in Scripture.

you mean like where it say when the SON of MAN Returns

You mean like where it says we have (ONE) GOD and ONE mediator between GOD and MAN the “MAN” Jesus Christ.

You mean where it say, you mean where Jesus said I and the root (AND) offspring of DAVID.

You mean where it say God Created every thing (ALONE) and BY (HIMSELF).

You mean where it say Jesus is the FIRST (BORN) SON of GOD.

You men where it say we are (JOINT HEIRS WITH JESUS).

You mean where it says, “and thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah art the least among the princes of Judah for (OUT) of YOU shall come a governor , that shall rule my people Israel.” Notice it does not say out of preexistence past. would come a governor.

You mean where it say the Spirit of the Antichrist is to deny Jesus came in the Flesh. John said this is the Spirit of the Antichrist and was already working in the childern of disobedience. What you need to understand is what John Meant by He came in the Flesh, as opposed to WHAT? a preexistence Past? Mike Preexistences and Trinitarians are both in the same boat, thy Both deny Jesus origins as not from the Human Flesh and as Him coming into existence as a human being.

peace and love…………………………………………gene

September 20, 2010 at 2:46 am#216882