Show me the fruit

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2010,21:25)

To all, The doctrine of preexistence is just constructed of misinterpreted hard to understand scriptures that conflict with other simpler to understand scriptures.   It is simple to understand that a descendant does not exist before their own ancestor, without tome travel.  Since that is true Jesus cannot exist before Mary much less David or Abraham. A tenet that breaks scripture as the Preexistence one does is not the truth. I can claim fruit from my beliefs but how do you know that I am not in some way being deceived by Satan.  I instead strive to display the fruit by my words and actions as a witness to the power of God through Christ.

kerwin

pay attention here;Mt 23:11 The most important person among you will be your servant.
Mk 10:42 And Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they who are accounted to rule over the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great ones exercise authority over them.
Mk 10:43 But it is not so among you: but whosoever would become great among you, shall be your minister;
Mk 10:44 and whosoever would be first among you, shall be servant of all.
Mk 10:45 For the Son of man also came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

this shows that Christ made himself nothing according to his own rule and so became the one were all knees will bend to

1Co 15:47 The first man came from the dust of the earth. The second man came from heaven.

here as well Paul mention that Christ came from heaven.

there is no doubt in my mind that Christ was existing has the WORD (communicator of God)before being Jesus ,

Pierre

[Baker]

Some are simple blind, and no matter what some put in front of them, even plain Scriptures that say that Jesus came down from Heaven. Now how hard is that to understand??
And then we have

Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

These Scriptures tell us that first He was the Word of God in John 1:1 and became flesh in Verse 14 and that is what Jesus will return. God and The Word of God are titles. Jesus spoke in the Old Test. no one ever heard Jehovah God speak or heard His voice….He is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS…..AND He will strike the nations when He comes……why??? look around you…… It is easier for those in Sodom and Gomorrah then those that will be alive when He comes….

Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2010,14:25)

To all, The doctrine of preexistence is just constructed of misinterpreted hard to understand scriptures that conflict with other simpler to understand scriptures.   It is simple to understand that a descendant does not exist before their own ancestor, without tome travel.  Since that is true Jesus cannot exist before Mary much less David or Abraham. A tenet that breaks scripture as the Preexistence one does is not the truth. I can claim fruit from my beliefs but how do you know that I am not in some way being deceived by Satan.  I instead strive to display the fruit by my words and actions as a witness to the power of God through Christ.

Kerwin……..You are right on this . they Just do not understand it. They can't even realize that all the scriptures they use can be taken in many different way , that is why all the confusion exists, I have ask them to produce (ONE SCRIPTURE ) THAT (SPECIFICALLY) SATES THIS. “JESUS CHRIST EXISTED AS A BEING BEFORE HIS BERTH ON EARTH”, they have produce non because there is non , so they grab straws and try to force the text to say what they want it to say even if it means to change the context of what the apostles as Paul and others say they even twist the context of what Jesus himself was saying.

While like you have said there are (MANY) scriptures that we have posted that show what they are saying as being in error. They Just ignore them and continue on in there delusions. I doubt they truly love the truth, but love their indoctrinations of deception that are found in the world of false religions of the Trinitarians and preexistences the religion that works to separate Us from our Identity with Jesus Christ as a fellow human being.

They can't even realize how they are Separatist separating Jesus from us through the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrists. Distorting the very work of GOD in His creation of Mankind, by making Jesus something other then were are. They make Him the object of Worship elevating him even to the position of God himself , and this creates the IMAGE of THE MAN OF SIN, Paul warned us about, This LIE, which Jesus will destory at his return
as 2Ths 2 says.

But all who do not hold to these false teaching that have infected all of Christendom will recieve honor at his return because these are the one who truly love the truth and have not been deluded to believing the LIE because they loved the truth and seek it out , so God has given them an understanding Mind to see and understand the error of deception preached by the Preexistence and Trinitarians, IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Kerwin:

Quote

It is not that hard to answer as Jesse the father of David called David his Lord as David was appointed King and not Jesse.

Where is that in scripture?  And you miss the point Kerwin, just like the Pharisees.  The whole point of Jesus bringing this topic up was to show them that the Messiah was NOT the literal “son” of David, but someone who had been ABOVE David all along.

Kerwin:

Quote

Please note that the word “offspring” was used and yet not “ancestor” or the equivalent.

Oh.  Well then let's use one of the scriptures that say the Messiah is both the Root…..and the BRANCH of David/Jesse.

Now what is your excuse?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Kerwin:

Quote

Mike Boll, Your interpretation of Philippians 2:6-7 ignores the context since Paul is using Jesus as an example of how the attitude of believers should be.  Form in verse is thus speaking of righteousness.  Context does not indicate what made in verse 7 means but we know from scripture Jesus was formed in his Mother's womb.

Listen Kerwin, you can't just “explain away” the actual words of scripture by giving your “opinion” of what the writer meant.  Because I could give my “opinion” also, but what would that prove?  No, we have to take the words of scripture as they are written and form our understanding AROUND THEM, not form the words of scripture AROUND OUR UNDERSTANDING.  

And you are right that Jesus was formed in Mary's womb……..ACCORDING TO THE FLESH.  

Romans 1:3 NIV
Romans 1:3
regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,

Why would Paul even include the words “human nature” if that's the ONLY nature Jesus ever had?

Kerwin:

Quote

As for John 17:5 you should consider the fact that God planned out everything in advance and in this way glorified Jesus in his presence.

So you will just ignore the fact that Jesus CLEARLY said HE HAD that glory?  Jesus doesn't talk of a glory that has been there waiting for him…….he speaks of a glory that HE (the person) already HAD in God's presence before the creation of the world.  Again Kerwin, we can't form the scriptures around our understanding……..it must be the other way around.

Kerwin:

Quote

Consider verse 4 which clearly states that the sons of God were chosen in Jesus before the creation of the world.  So are the sons of God preexistent because they were already chosen to be in Christ

Of course not.  But does scripture say these ones had glory in God's presence before they were flesh?  Does it say that they WERE in one form, but then were made into human beings?  You compare apples to oranges here.

Kerwin:

Quote

If you have troubles because this scripture does not mention glory then look here. 1 Corinthians 2:7(NIV) reads: Quote No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began So unlike the tenet of preexistence of Christ the tenet of predestination does not break scripture.

First, this scripture doesn't say anything about a glory any of us HAD in God's presence at any previous time.  Second, Christ's pre-existence does not “break scripture” Kerwin……….it IS scripture.  It is YOU who “breaks scripture” by denying if for you own selfish reasons.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,02:51)

They can't even realize that all the scriptures they use can be taken in many different ways , that is why all the confusion exists,

In actuality Gene, it is you guys who MUST take the scripture in a way opposite to what it really says to keep your doctrine. Thus begins the “confusion”. When it CLEARLY says the person Jesus HAD GLORY in God's presence before the creation of the world, and then YOU GUYS come in with your “it really means the thought of Jesus in God's head is what had glory”, how can it not get confusing.

But we are not confused by the scriptures Gene………..only the crazy things you guys say they mean.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Hey Irene and Pierre,

Will you folks help me with a project?  I'm starting a “Pre-existent Scripture Data-base” thread for us to referrence in these discussions.  I don't want any “chit-chat” on the thread, just post the scripture, complete with Book, chapter and verse.

There are too many of them to keep track of in my head, and I find more all the time.  I think it would help to be able to go to this thread and find the scripture we need at the right time.

Thanks in advance,
mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,04:34)

Kerwin: Quote It is not that hard to answer as Jesse the father of David called David his Lord as David was appointed King and not Jesse. Where is that in scripture?  And you miss the point Kerwin, just like the Pharisees.  The whole point of Jesus bringing this topic up was to show them that the Messiah was NOT the literal “son” of David, but someone who had been ABOVE David all along. Kerwin: Quote Please note that the word “offspring” was used and yet not “ancestor” or the equivalent. Oh.  Well then let's use one of the scriptures that say the Messiah is both the Root…..and the BRANCH of David/Jesse. Now what is your excuse? mike

Mike…………So if i said the cars roots and origins were of the engineer JOE BLOW that to you doesn't mean that is where that car came from or where it originated from right? To you that means it was not part of the same exact car. It is obvious to any one who reads it right Jesus was (BOTH) the Root (and) offspring of DAVID. And being of the same subject matter and consistent with roots and offspring of David as His source of existence.

Don't have to force any thing just read the flow of subject matter, no “MYSTERY” about it. Scripture backs that up also. And even GOD said this to David the from His SEED would come Jesus to rule over his throne.

2 Sam 7:12…> And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt seelp with thy fathers, I will set up (THY SEED) after thee which shall (PROCEED) )(OUT OF) (THY) BOWELS, and I will establish his kingdom. 13…> He shall build a house for my name, and i will establish the throne of (HIS) Kingdom forever. 14….> I (WILL)(future tense) be His Father, and He (SHALL) (future tense) be my son. (all preexistences notice this now) (IF) he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of Men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16….> And thine house and they kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be extablished (FOREVER).

Mike if i say you SHALL be, does that mean to you you already are. Why would GOD use that language if Jesus already was a SON OF GOD, Would he have not simply said MY existing SON> If Jesus already existed. Common sense Mike, use it.

MIke………> NOTICE In ALL OF THIS NOT SO MUCH AS one word OF ANY (PREEXISTING) BEING EVEN MENTIONED .

peace and love………………………..gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,15:36)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2010,04:34) Kerwin: Quote It is not that hard to answer as Jesse the father of David called David his Lord as David was appointed King and not Jesse. Where is that in scripture?  And you miss the point Kerwin, just like the Pharisees.  The whole point of Jesus bringing this topic up was to show them that the Messiah was NOT the literal “son” of David, but someone who had been ABOVE David all along. Kerwin: Quote Please note that the word “offspring” was used and yet not “ancestor” or the equivalent. Oh.  Well then let's use one of the scriptures that say the Messiah is both the Root…..and the BRANCH of David/Jesse. Now what is your excuse? mike Mike…………So if i said the cars roots and origins were of  the engineer JOE BLOW that to you doesn't mean that is where that car came from or where it originated from right? To you that means it was not part of the same exact car. It is obvious to any one who reads it right Jesus was (BOTH)  the Root (and) offspring of DAVID.  And being of the same subject matter and consistent with roots and offspring of David as His source of existence. Don't have to force any thing just read the flow of subject matter, no “MYSTERY” about it. Scripture backs that up also. And even GOD said this to David the from His SEED would come Jesus to rule over his throne. 2 Sam 7:12…> And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt seelp with thy fathers, I will set up (THY SEED) after thee which shall (PROCEED) )(OUT OF) (THY) BOWELS, and I will establish his kingdom. 13…> He shall build a house for my name, and i will establish the throne of (HIS) Kingdom forever. 14….> I (WILL)(future tense) be His Father, and He (SHALL) (future tense) be my son.  (all preexistences notice this now) (IF) he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of Men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took from Saul,  whom I put away before thee. 16….> And thine house and they kingdom shall be established forever before thee: thy throne shall be extablished (FOREVER).   Mike if i say you SHALL be, does that mean to you you already are. Why would GOD use that language if Jesus already was a SON OF GOD, Would he have not simply said MY existing SON> If Jesus already existed. Common sense Mike, use it. MIke………> NOTICE In ALL OF THIS NOT SO MUCH AS one word OF ANY (PREEXISTING) BEING EVEN MENTIONED .   peace and love………………………..gene

gene

are you know the difference of a prophecy and a statement???

a prophecy is a fore cast,
a statement is a reality spoken,

so;; prophecy;;and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men

a statement;;Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

do you see it ??

Pierre

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

Do you know what is meant by the letter kills but the spirit gives life?  It is not the letter that Satan uses as a snare to entrap you that you should heed but the Spirit of righteousness that leads you to life.   It is obvious to those guided by the Spirit that Paul is urging the students of Christ to have a righteous attitude and that the form of Jesus is righteousness.  It is obvious not only because of context but because the spiritual minded crave to do all God commands.  So pay attention to God’s intent when reading his words. It is our search for knowledge of that intent that makes us students of The Anointed.

Out of curiosity in what form of human likeness was he made if not of the flesh?

Scripture states that the Anointed is the literal descendent of David even in God’s promise to David and scripture cannot be broken.  David is a prophet of God and so speaks of what will be in the future as he told of Jesus’ death and resurrection.    

As for the scripture support that David was made king over his father Jesse see 1 Samuel 16:1.

I know of no other scripture that states Jesus is the root of David/Jesse.  The closest I know is Isaiah 11:1 which states that a branch will grow out of Jesse and calls Jesse the stem of Jesus.  If you know any others then please share them.

Don’t you believe you are getting a little absurd when you are seeking the same exact words in reference to both Jesus and believers?  It is not the words you want but the exact same intent even if it is expressed with different words.  It is obvious that since God bestowed those who persist in belief with glory before the existence of the world that he did it in his own presence because it was God who did the bestowing.  It is God’s plan and no one elses.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 31 2010,16:10)

Mike Boll, Do you know what is meant by the letter kills but the spirit gives life?  It is not the letter that Satan uses as a snare to entrap you that you should heed but the Spirit of righteousness that leads you to life.   It is obvious to those guided by the Spirit that Paul is urging the students of Christ to have a righteous attitude and that the form of Jesus is righteousness.  It is obvious not only because of context but because the spiritual minded crave to do all God commands.  So pay attention to God’s intent when reading his words. It is our search for knowledge of that intent that makes us students of The Anointed. Out of curiosity in what form of human likeness was he made if not of the flesh? Scripture states that the Anointed is the literal descendent of David even in God’s promise to David and scripture cannot be broken.  David is a prophet of God and so speaks of what will be in the future as he told of Jesus’ death and resurrection.     As for the scripture support that David was made king over his father Jesse see 1 Samuel 16:1. I know of no other scripture that states Jesus is the root of David/Jesse.  The closest I know is Isaiah 11:1 which states that a branch will grow out of Jesse and calls Jesse the stem of Jesus.  If you know any others then please share them. Don’t you believe you are getting a little absurd when you are seeking the same exact words in reference to both Jesus and believers?  It is not the words you want but the exact same intent even if it is expressed with different words.  It is obvious that since God bestowed those who persist in belief with glory before the existence of the world that he did it in his own presence because it was God who did the bestowing.  It is God’s plan and no one elses.

kerwin
you say;
Do you know what is meant by the letter kills but the spirit gives life?
————————————-

the letter kills;means that the knowledge of the law (letter)only shows us that we are sinners and so die because of it ..

the spirit gives live;;means ,that the understanding that God gives us trough Christ are words of live because it free us from our sins,and reconciled us with God,and so we receive live,

Pierre

[kerwin]

Pierre,

I agree! My point is that Satan will use the literal words of God in an attempt to snare us, just like he tried to do with Jesus when tempting him in the desert. We need to beware of this and always look to the understanding God gives us through Jesus.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,08:36)

Mike…………So if i said the cars roots and origins were of the engineer JOE BLOW that to you doesn't mean that is where that car came from or where it originated from right?

Sure it does Gene. But if you said “The car IS the root OF Joe Blow”, then it means something different. Do you agree?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 31 2010,08:36)

Mike if i say you SHALL be, does that mean to you you already are. Why would GOD use that language if Jesus already was a SON OF GOD,

Hi Gene,

First, this was a case of God speaking about the unborn son of David at the time, therefore the “he SHALL”.

When Paul quoted Samuel, he just kept the words the way they were originally meant. Don't read too much into it, for God many times says “I SHALL be their God”, although He has always been everyone's God.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 01 2010,08:06)

I agree! My point is that Satan will use the literal words of God in an attempt to snare us

Yes Kerwin. Satan will use both the words of God……AND our own human reasoning to snare us.

mike

[1+1+1=1]

Fruit?

[terraricca]

Quote (1+1+1=1 @ Nov. 12 2010,15:26)

Fruit?

hi 1

the fruit?
here we plant and water,only God can make it grow and only then we can bear fruits.

so if you still looking for fruits it is because God did not make you grow.

because every tree should bear is own fruit.

Pierre

[Baker]

martian Offline

Gene, On page 15 and 16 Martian said in this post to Mike…

Group: Members
Posts: 1672
Joined: Mar. 2007
Posted: Oct. 09 2010,05:42 QUOTE
What's it take to get kicked off of here. You moderators would be doing me a service to do so. Kick me off and block me from getting back on.
Come on get your monkeys to work and kick me off. Come on you idiots. Do it. I dare you.
Fix it so I will never be able to give into the temptation to do this sin any more.
Come on you monkey ministry.

Gene, this is the kind of abuse that Martian gave Mike…

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 12 2010,17:01)

martian Offline Gene, On page 15 and 16 Martian said in this post to Mike… Group: Members Posts: 1672 Joined: Mar. 2007 Posted: Oct. 09 2010,05:42 QUOTE What's it take to get kicked off of here. You moderators would be doing me a service to do so. Kick me off and block me from getting back on. Come on get your monkeys to work and kick me off. Come on you idiots. Do it. I dare you. Fix it so I will never be able to give into the temptation to do this sin any more. Come on you monkey ministry. Gene, this is the kind of abuse that Martian gave Mike…

Irene

i think Martan and 1+1+1=1 are the same

PIERRE

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 12 2010,10:11)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 12 2010,17:01) martian Offline Gene, On page 15 and 16 Martian said in this post to Mike… Group: Members Posts: 1672 Joined: Mar. 2007 Posted: Oct. 09 2010,05:42 QUOTE What's it take to get kicked off of here. You moderators would be doing me a service to do so. Kick me off and block me from getting back on. Come on get your monkeys to work and kick me off. Come on you idiots. Do it. I dare you. Fix it so I will never be able to give into the temptation to do this sin any more. Come on you monkey ministry. Gene, this is the kind of abuse that Martian gave Mike… Irene i think Martan and 1+1+1=1 are the same PIERRE

I have not looked at that yet. I will do so now…Irene

[Author]

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