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Mile Boll,
They are called the synagogue of Satan in Revelations as they have abandoned their first love for the deceptions of the evil one.
As far as my religion it is the true Jewish religion that acknowledges Jesus as the Anointed One. My “nationality” is Gentile.
As for Luke the theory of his ethnic origin is based most firmly on his Greek name and that he comes from the Greek city of Antioch. He could come from a heavily Hellenistic Jewish family but only speculation that sometimes disagrees with scripture supports that.
Mike Boll,
You wrote:
Quote You're not helping your case here Kerwin.
Previously, I wrote:
Quote The answer is Jesus has no advantage over us, in regard to his not sinning despite being tempted as we are, that we cannot obtain.
I do not see why not since it is part of my case if you would note the qualifier “that we cannot obtain” which covers both your points. In fact if we take a look as Hebrews 4:15 you will see the qualifier “yet was without sin” showing the difference we speak of.
The huge advantage of being born with complete faith and the spirit of righteousness is what qualifies him to be the mediator of the new covenant as he can teach us to do likewise and thus make peace with God.
As for Gene’s point the age of accountability of Jews is 12 or about the onset of puberty not 20 or 30. Hebrews 4:15 states “without sin” and a sin you are not accountable for is still a sin and thus contradicts that clause.
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,16:42) Hi Gene, So you're saying Jesus may have sinned between 1 and 20, but would not
have been held responsible for any such sin; is that about right?
So how do you account for the time between 20 and 30?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ……..No i believe GOD Keep HIM from sinning alright, I was just saying there is a point of accountability and when that age was with Jesus i don't know . But i do believe He never sinned, i also believe He was tempted in every way we are too, and it was by the Power of GOD (ON) Him at first and then (IN) His at the Jordan that (KEPT) Him from ever sinning. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2010,17:13) DK………Wrong the scripture truth Jesus was (exactly) Like us in every way at berth, That is if your believe what scripture says. The difference was the MAN Jesus, who was (exactly identical to Us) had was given the fullness of the Spirit of GOD which He recieved at the Jordan river the fullness of it , and at that time he became the SON of GOD, Making him the FIRST BEGOTTEN SON of GOD as a full SON of GOD (from Mankind), while we who have recieved The holy Spirit now we only recieved the “earnest of the Spirit” known as the Spirit of truth. However we also will someday be in the fullness of the Spirit also and we will then be as Jesus is now in every way without exception except in position of authority. Jesus came into existence with no advantage over any other human being, he was flesh and blood and a helpless baby at berth and grew in statue and in understanding exactly as other do and GOD Keep Him and Blessed Him and Taught him from his youth and revealed himself to him over time, So he grew in faith and Knowledge as he matured, gaining favor with GOD and MAN. He was foreordained for His position in life before he ever existed, He was truly one of Us Humans in every way , and all who try to separated that identity with us are most assuredly ANTICHRISTS. Jesus did not preexist his berth on earth as any kind of being whatsoever, He merely existed in the Plan and Will of God , because that was God plan all along for mankind, and Jesus was the first to achieve that goal from humanity. The First begotten from mankind . the first to be begotten of God from making, the first to be resurected from the dead from mankind.
DK……….good to see you back hope you stay fro a while brother.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene
Hi Brother Gene…good to see you still standing firm…how have you been
DK……….OK how about you hope every thing is alright with you and yours. Stick around for a while i alway enjoyed your commits brother, even if they disagree with me at times. But one thing we both had in common was the JW thing brother remember?
peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………..DK
Kerwin………I think you are right as for the way the Jew believe it to be anyway, When does GOD Don't Know, maybe when we become fully aware we are sinning don't know the answer , but i was just trying to bring out what GOD did in Israel at the time of the Exodus. He seem not to hold the Sins of People under twenty years of age accountable that was my only point , i really am not sure what age it is Brother. No scripture seem to pin it down fully at least as far as i recall.
peace and love………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 30 2010,03:10) Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,16:42) Hi Gene, So you're saying Jesus may have sinned between 1 and 20, but would not
have been held responsible for any such sin; is that about right?
So how do you account for the time between 20 and 30?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDJ……..No i believe GOD Keep HIM from sinning alright, I was just saying there is a point of accountability and when that age was with Jesus i don't know . But i do believe He never sinned, i also believe He was tempted in every way we are too, and it was by the Power of GOD (ON) Him at first and then (IN) His at the Jordan that (KEPT) Him from ever sinning. IMOpeace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Hi Gene,Does this mean that God did not allow him to be tempted until he was 30?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ…………No i am not saying that EDJ , i do not know When Jesus started to be tempted nor does anyone else here either IMO< But suffice it to say He was tempted in all manor even as we are.
peace and love…………………………gene
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,15:13) Hi Mike, You say: God is the Father of Jesus, yet the “HolySpirit” is said to have impregnated Mary! (Matt.1:18,20)
Are you saying God the Father is Jesus foster father, while the “HolySpirit” is Jesus real Father?
Does your spirit do things apart from you? Is your spirit somebody other than you?
No Ed,God impregnated Mary BY MEANS OF His Holy Spirit.
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 29 2010,15:49) Jesus was taught God laws and statues from his youth by his parents and walked faithfully in them
Hi Gene,And you know this how?
Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,16:42) Hi Gene, So you're saying Jesus may have sinned between 1 and 20, but would not
have been held responsible for any such sin; is that about right?
So how do you account for the time between 20 and 30?
Kerwin:
Quote They are called the synagogue of Satan in Revelations as they have abandoned their first love for the deceptions of the evil one.
Chapter and verses please?Kerwin:
Quote As for Luke the theory of his ethnic origin is based most firmly on his Greek name and that he comes from the Greek city of Antioch. He could come from a heavily Hellenistic Jewish family but only speculation that sometimes disagrees with scripture supports that.
In other words, we can't really know for sure then, right?mike
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,17:22) The huge advantage of being born with complete faith and the spirit of righteousness is what qualifies him to be the mediator of the new covenant as he can teach us to do likewise and thus make peace with God. As for Gene’s point the age of accountability of Jews is 12 or about the onset of puberty not 20 or 30. Hebrews 4:15 states “without sin” and a sin you are not accountable for is still a sin and thus contradicts that clause.
Hi Kerwin,I agree with both paragraphs. But that still means Jesus had what you called “a huge advantage” over us. Do you agree?
mike
To all,
The doctrine of preexistence is just constructed of misinterpreted hard to understand scriptures that conflict with other simpler to understand scriptures.
It is simple to understand that a descendant does not exist before their own ancestor, without tome travel. Since that is true Jesus cannot exist before Mary much less David or Abraham.
A tenet that breaks scripture as the Preexistence one does is not the truth.
I can claim fruit from my beliefs but how do you know that I am not in some way being deceived by Satan. I instead strive to display the fruit by my words and actions as a witness to the power of God through Christ.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,08:51) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,17:22) The huge advantage of being born with complete faith and the spirit of righteousness is what qualifies him to be the mediator of the new covenant as he can teach us to do likewise and thus make peace with God. As for Gene’s point the age of accountability of Jews is 12 or about the onset of puberty not 20 or 30. Hebrews 4:15 states “without sin” and a sin you are not accountable for is still a sin and thus contradicts that clause.
Hi Kerwin,I agree with both paragraphs. But that still means Jesus had what you called “a huge advantage” over us. Do you agree?
mike
I do agree but it is an advantage that we too can have by the power of God through Jesus our King.There is not enough evidence about Luke's heritage to be certain.
Revelations 3:9 is Johns warning about non-believing Jews.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 30 2010,14:25) It is simple to understand that a descendant does not exist before their own ancestor, without tome travel. Since that is true Jesus cannot exist before Mary much less David or Abraham.
This teaching was also hard for the Pharisees, Kerwin. They could not understand the fact that Jesus was both the Root and the Offspring of David.But Jesus explained it to them using scripture and simple logic. He asked: If the Messiah is David's son, then how is it David calls him “my Lord”?
Can you answer Jesus' question Kerwin?
mike
Kerwin:
Quote I do agree but it is an advantage that we too can have by the power of God through Jesus our King.
But if we didn't have it from the start, or as much of it as was afforded Jesus, then he was never “exactly like us”. He had advantages over the rest of us, and that seems to be what you guys don't “want” the scriptures to say. So if you admit he had “a huge advantage” over the rest of us, then why fight the rest of scriptures just to keep Jesus “exactly like us”? Your doctrine is not scriptural, it is only your selfish wish. And worst of all, you misalign MANY clear scriptures to keep that selfish wish from dying.I will bring a post to Gene to this thread Kerwin. I hope you answer it's DIRECT scriptures DIRECTLY……….he sure didn't.
Kerwin:
Quote Revelations 3:9 is Johns warning about non-believing Jews.
9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.That doesn't sound like Jesus slamming Jews to me.
Romans 11:25-31 CEV
25My friends, I don't want you Gentiles to be too proud of yourselves. So I will explain the mystery of what has happened to the people of Israel. Some of them have become stubborn, and they will stay like that until the complete number of you Gentiles has come in. 26In this way all of Israel will be saved, as the Scriptures say,
“From Zion someone will cometo rescue us.
Then Jacob's descendants
will stop being evil.
27This is what the Lord
has promised to do
when he forgives their sins.”
28The people of Israel are treated as God's enemies, so that the good news can come to you Gentiles. But they are still the chosen ones, and God loves them because of their famous ancestors. 29God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or forget about the people he has chosen.
30At one time you Gentiles rejected God. But now Israel has rejected God, and you have been shown mercy. 31And because of the mercy shown to you, they will also be shown mercy. 32All people have disobeyed God, and that's why he treats them as prisoners. But he does this, so that he can have mercy on all of them.
Take it for what it's worth Kerwin. I'm not “preaching down” to you, only trying to show you something.
mike
Mike Boll,
You wrote:
Quote Can you answer Jesus' question Kerwin?
It is not that hard to answer as Jesse the father of David called David his Lord as David was appointed King and not Jesse. Jesus has a throne higher than David and no one, even David, was the king who sat on David’s throne when Jesus took the throne on the right hand of God.
You wrote:
Quote This teaching was also hard for the Pharisees, Kerwin. They could not understand the fact that Jesus was both the Root and the Offspring of David.
Please note that the word “offspring” was used and yet not “ancestor” or the equivalent. “Root” has more than one definition such as “an underlying support” according to Merriam-Webster.com. David believed God when he said that the Messiah would be born out of his line. In that way faith in Jesus is the Root of David.
For Kerwin……..from a post to Gene in “Pre-exist”. Here are just two of the “mis-interpreted, hard to understand” scriptures you mentioned. Would you care to “play the game”? Gene apparently didn't want to.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2010,00:23) Anyone can force a text to draw certain conclusions. Why do textual words have to be add to to get a clear meaning , why force the text at all, or move completely away from the context of what is being talked about
Hi Gene,I couldn't agree more. Let's put our agreed upon practice of not forcing the text to the test, okay?
Philippians 2:6-7 NIV
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.I THINK: This passage says that Jesus was “in the form of God”, which means he was a spiritual being like his God. But then he emptied himself, and took on the form of a servant by being made as a human being.
YOU THINK: This passage says that Jesus, as a human being, was doing miracles and such, so the common folk started to hold him in high esteem. They considered him “as God” to them. But instead of letting them go on thinking this, he humbly emptied himself of this grandeur, let the people know that he was not God, and then…………..
I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation as to why it says he was made in human likeness. How can someone who already is a human being be made in the likeness of a human being?
Okay Gene, who's forcing and twisting in Phil 2? Here's another one:
John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.I THINK: Jesus is asking his Father to glorify him in His own presence with the glory Jesus had in his Father's presence before the world existed.
YOU THINK: Jesus is asking his Father to give him the foreordained glory that God has had just sitting around just waiting for him ever since he was a thought in God's head before the world was created.
Which makes more grammatical sense, based on the words used? And who is forcing the text?
That's just two scriptures Gene. Would you like to keep playing this game?
mike
Mike Boll,
Your interpretation of Philippians 2:6-7 ignores the context since Paul is using Jesus as an example of how the attitude of believers should be. Form in verse is thus speaking of righteousness. Context does not indicate what made in verse 7 means but we know from scripture Jesus was formed in his Mother's womb. Formed and made can be synonyms. So obviously there is no force there just using context and prior knowledge of scripture.
As for John 17:5 you should consider the fact that God planned out everything in advance and in this way glorified Jesus in his presence.
Check this passage
Ephesians 1:3-14(NIV) reads:
Quote Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
Consider verse 4 which clearly states that the sons of God were chosen in Jesus before the creation of the world. So are the sons of God preexistent because they were already chosen to be in Christ just like Jesus was chosen to be crucified, resurrected, and ascend to be King of everything in heaven and on earth. If so then why does scripture call it predestination in the very next verse?
If you have troubles because this scripture does not mention glory then look here.
1 Corinthians 2:7(NIV) reads:
Quote No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began
So unlike the tenet of preexistence of Christ the tenet of predestination does not break scripture.
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