Show me the fruit

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2010,06:58)

Georg……So you say you only know ONE who is anointed right? So why did Jesus tell his disciples to not leave Jerusalem until the recieve (power) from on high and please tell us what is the comforter Jesus said He would send is. What do you think Jesus meant with I in YOU and YOU IN ME them, how is that possible if not by that same spirit anointing. What did you recieve when you had hands laid on you then? What does it mean to have the same MIND as Jesus them , is not that the mind of GOD recieved through his spirit.? Is this anointing not how the love of GOD is shed around in our hearts?

peace and love to you and Irene………………………….gene

Maybe I think differently what “anointing” means.
The kings of Israel were anointed with oil, so were the high priests, meaning they were consecrated for a special job.
The apostles were “called” by Jesus, and later “received” the Holy Spirit, but show me a scripture were any one else was anointed by, or with, the Holy Spirit, maybe I missed it.
The love of God is for all, but he is not now “shedding” his love in all of our hearts, especially not in those who deny his scriptures/word.

Georg

September 4, 2010 at 9:20 pm#215034

Participant

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

September 5, 2010 at 12:34 am#215052

barley

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 01 2010,11:04)

Quote (barley @ Aug. 31 2010,13:12)

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,06:44)

martian

Doctrines don't change hearts, surgeons do; scripture is supposed to change your mind, your thinking and behavior.
You must not go by any churches doctrine, you have to rely on the word of God, the Bible.
Doctrines don't show you the path, the Bible does.
God does not need protection, we do.
Again, doctrines don't give you hope, the Bible does.
The Bible tells you what you must do to be more like Christ, not any doctrine.
The Bible should be your doctrine, not any man made doctrine. If you don't understand something, then don't be embarrassed, or to proud to ask; but be genuine and serious about it.

Georg

Baker,

Have you considered II Timothy 3:16,17?

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The scripture is profitable.

It is profitable for doctrine, which is how to believe rightly.

It is profitable for reproof, which corrects practical error.

It is profitable for correction, which corrects doctrinal error.

All these three are instruction in righteousness.

There is sound doctrine because it is scriptural.

I Timothy 1:10

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

I Timothy 4:6,13,16

6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Since believing comes from the heart. Romans 10:9-10.

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Mark 11:23

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

We believe or we can doubt, both come from the heart. We can change our heart by changing our thinking. We can change our thinking by choosing what we want to think.

Luke 6:45

45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

We are to love God with all our heart…

Luke 22:37

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

We can choose what rules our hearts.

Colossians 3:15

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

barley

Yes I have, that is why I said, “CHURCHES DOCTRINES”.

Georg

Baker,

I am sorry.

You meant to say “churches doctrines.”

I did think your original comment a bit odd.

Thanks for clarifying this for me.

barley

September 5, 2010 at 12:45 am#215053

Participant

Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20)

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.

Georg

September 5, 2010 at 1:19 pm#215101

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20)

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.

Georg

You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”
The truth you say you have is the pre-0existence of Jesus. I want to know how that” truth” gives you hope?
How does it make Christ more of an example for us?
How does it show us a clear pattern that we can follow?

September 5, 2010 at 1:22 pm#215102

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20)

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.

Georg

How does what he did give you hope?
Does his resurrection give you hope?
Does his ability to overcome temptation give you hope?

September 5, 2010 at 2:25 pm#215103

Participant

Georg………..You are not able to pin any hope on what martian has posted because you simply don't believe Jesus was exactly like you in fact you have removed Jesus from you Identity so how can you recieve any hope from him. That is our strong point in the preexistence argument here. Jesus said whosoever overcomes (EVEN A I HAVE) , but you preexistences don't believe you can overcome because you removed Jesus. identity from yourselves. Your are saying Jesus was not (REALLY) Like you, so what the point of thinking you relationship with GOD could be anything like his. Can't you see that works against HOPE.

peace and love to you and Irene……………………………….gene

September 5, 2010 at 3:13 pm#215105

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,07:37)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2010,06:58)

peace and love to you and Irene………………………….gene

Georg

Georg………An anointing is simply a term for being applied with something on your head or body it is also used to symbolic represent the applying of GOD'S Spirit into the mind of a person. Scripture say GOD pours forth His Spirit on Us as it shows in ACTS. This is an anointing of Spirit. IMO

1 Sa 16: 13….> Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren : and the SPIRIT of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.

Isa 45 :1….> Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand i have holden, to subdue nations before him; and i will los the loins of kings……….,

Many were anointed of GOD, David , Saul, Solomon, Cyrus, Moses , the seventy elders, and Jesus and the saints of GOD are to.

Isa 61:1….> The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; (why) because he has anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted to proclaim liberty to the captives, and to opening of the prison to them that are bound; ………..,

The physical act of anointing is (symbolic ) of receiving special spiritual guidance from GOD. So to see it from a Physical sense you are right , it is simply applying Oil or water or any ointments, but in a spiritual sense it is a representation of having the Spirit applied on you mind and heart. IMO

peace and love to you and Irene……………..gene

September 5, 2010 at 5:48 pm#215126

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 06 2010,02:13)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,07:37)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2010,06:58)

peace and love to you and Irene………………………….gene

Georg

1 Sa 16: 13….> Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren : and the SPIRIT of the LORD came upon David from that day forward.

Isa 45 :1….> Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand i have holden, to subdue nations before him; and i will los the loins of kings……….,

Many were anointed of GOD, David , Saul, Solomon, Cyrus, Moses , the seventy elders, and Jesus and the saints of GOD are to.

peace and love to you and Irene……………..gene

It can also be applied to anointing your body for healing. The Spirit effecting the physical body.

September 6, 2010 at 2:53 am#215172

Participant

Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20)

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.

Georg

The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact.

“”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”””

You even quoted what I said; so why do you want to spin this into something else?
Why would you say, the pre-existence of Jesus gives me hope?
How can his pre-existence make Jesus a better example?
How can his pre-existence show you a clearer pattern to follow?
What does his pre-existence have to do with any of this? Nothing that I can see.

Georg

September 6, 2010 at 3:28 pm#215209

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20)

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.

Georg

The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact.

“”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”””

Georg

I understand that you do not see it. That is the problem. If you believe that Jesus had any advantage over the rest of humanity due to his pre-existence then you have partially negated his being an example for us.
What hope can I gain from a creature doing anything if that creature is not like me?
I have hope in overcoming because I have an example that is just like me that overcame. If Christ is different then me I cannot use him as an exact example. It creates doubt in what I can follow him in and what I cannot.
How can I follow Christ and walk the paths that he walked if his path is determined by his pre-existence?
Your doctrine moves Christ away from us just like the Trinity does.
Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree?
If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that?

September 6, 2010 at 3:42 pm#215211

Participant

Martian……….Exactly right, Giving Jesus this great advantage over us completely separates Him from us His work means nothing in that case , how can I achieve what he did seeing he is nothing like me except he had a body like mine , but he was really a preexisting super being one who was already perfect. So why tell me to overcome like He did when he was nothing like me. They are the exact same as the Gnostic's in John day who believed Jesus shot out from the Pelora of the GODS. The are indeed Antichrists. IMO

peace and love to you brother……………………….gene

September 6, 2010 at 9:11 pm#215229

Participant

Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20)

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.

Georg

The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact.

“”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”””

Georg

Yes, Jesus knew who he was, God's son, and he knew were he came from, heaven. He was a spirit being “in” heaven, but not while he was on earth. If you call that an advantage, than yes it was, but, do you think any one else could have accomplished, what he accomplished, not sinned? had he sinned, he could not have died for ours.
He was “all” man,

Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (flesh)

We are to imitate him, but God knows that we will not accomplish what Jesus did; that is why he died for us, his pre-existence has nothing to do with that.
What path are you trying to follow? you can never “BE” Christ, what is it that Jesus ask us to do?

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

That's all you have to do, I think you will find, that's hard enough.

“””Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his pre-existence. Do you agree?”””

YES

“””So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us.”””

I disagree,

Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

God is not asking the impossible from us, so relax.

Georg

September 6, 2010 at 11:39 pm#215244

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 07 2010,08:11)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 06 2010,13:53)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 06 2010,00:19)

Quote (Baker @ Sep. 05 2010,11:45)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 05 2010,08:20)

George,
You have very keenly avoided the question. You say your teaching of preexistence gives you hope? How does it do that?

Where did I say that?
Jesus gives me hope in what he did and said. His pre existence is just something I believe, because it is what the Bible teaches.
Perhaps I don't quite understand your question.

Georg

The pre-existence of Jesus does nothing to me, other than that it is a fact.

“”” You said – “Truth and understanding of the Bible has given “me” hope, and it will give you the same.”””

Georg

Hbr 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (flesh)

Jhn 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

That's all you have to do, I think you will find, that's hard enough.

“””Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his pre-existence. Do you agree?”””

YES

“””So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us.”””

I disagree,

Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

God is not asking the impossible from us, so relax.

Georg

You contradict yourself.
“He was “all” man,” but yet you say he had knowledge we do not posses and never could from so called pre-existence. That is a contradiction.
His overcoming is supposed to be an example to us and yet you say he had some advantage in knowledge that would have influenced his ability to overcome. How do we follow that example.
You doctrine is just silly and non-sense. It defeats Christ as our example.
So if you had lived in heaven before being born on Earth and you had memories of that time, you would not be effected by that? That would not influence your decisions? Come on, show a little bit of reason here.

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with Heb 2 but maybe try the context —
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
(NOTICE IT SAY IN ALL THINGS. IT DOES NOT SAY IN ALL THINGS EXCEPT PRE-EXISTENCE KNOWLEDGE)
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

September 7, 2010 at 1:55 am#215258

Blocked

Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28)

Mike says that Jesus carried knowledge into his Earthly life from his Pre-existence. Do you agree?
If so, Then you must know that knowledge is what we base our decisions on. So Christ made decisions on info that is not available to us. How can we follow that? How can we duplicate that?

Martian,

Even if Jesus didn't pre-exist, you have to know that he had knowledge that we don't, right? How could he presume to tell US the things of God if he didn't have more knowledge than everyone else?

Jesus knew then who the false Messiahs would be and warned us about them. Do we know who exactly they are? No. So Jesus had knowledge we don't have…..and for that you say you can't follow him?

mike

ps Come join Gene and me in the Phil 2 thread. We have finally reached the point of no return, and I would like you to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

September 7, 2010 at 12:33 pm#215290

Participant

Mike…………God was revealing it to Him while he was on earth, GOD the father was (IN) HIM , ” believe you not that the Father is (IN) me”. Also notice it say He was a decedent of Abraham, “For assuredly he does not give help to angles, but to the (DECEDENTS) OF ABRAHAM”. So how could Jesus exist as a (Being) before Abraham and also be His decedent. Jesus was a decedent of Adam, Abraham, and King David, if you doubt it look up his linage found in scripture and you can easily see it there. No where does scripture say Jesus Preexisted His Berth on earth that is a Lie that sprung from the Gnostic's and Greek Roman Pagan teachings. It is the Spirit (intellect) of the Antichrists. God was not dealing with angles of any kind Morphed into a human, But with the 100% MAN Jesus who is the Christ or anointed MAN of GOD. The first to become a fully born son of GOD into eternal life from among mankind. He is our exact example and we Must overcome the exact same way he did, with the exact same Power of GOD working in and through Us. He proved it is possible to achieve that Goal, by being a purely human being himself. “ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE WITH GOD”. As it was with him so it is with US. Same God same purpose same plan for all Humanity. IMO

peace and love………………………gene

September 7, 2010 at 3:06 pm#215298

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 07 2010,12:55)

Quote (martian @ Sep. 07 2010,02:28)

Martian,

Even if Jesus didn't pre-exist, you have to know that he had knowledge that we don't, right? How could he presume to tell US the things of God if he didn't have more knowledge than everyone else?

Jesus knew then who the false Messiahs would be and warned us about them. Do we know who exactly they are? No. So Jesus had knowledge we don't have…..and for that you say you can't follow him?

mike

ps Come join Gene and me in the Phil 2 thread. We have finally reached the point of no return, and I would like you to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

I never said Jesus did not have knowledge that we do not have. I said he could not have knowledge not available to us. Big difference.
There is no question that the closeness that Christ had with his father on Earth was more then we have achieved at this time, but it is possible. Jesus said Father as you and I are one. Make them one with us. This speaks of the same relationship. Granted in that relationship would be knowledge that others of lesser relationship would not have. But again it is available to them.
However if you give Christ knowledge that can only be attained via a pre-existence, then he would make decisions on that knowledge and that is something that would not be available to us and negate us following him in the same way.

Phil 2? I will not debate on the subject of scripture since you refuse to agree to any honest principles for interpretation. Are at the very least hide in a dark corner with the way you come to conclusions and say it is none of my business. There is no fruit in that. Just as their is no fruit in your conclusions.

September 9, 2010 at 3:10 am#215550

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,23:33)

Mike…………God was revealing it to Him while he was on earth,

Revealing WHAT exactly, Gene? Knowledge? But Martian says it would be “unfair” to us if Jesus knew more than we did.

mike

September 9, 2010 at 3:20 am#215552

Blocked

Quote (martian @ Sep. 08 2010,02:06)

I didn't think so. In fact, I bet you peeked and saw that we are to a point of “no wiggle room”, so you decided to stay in hiding. That's okay, I'll bring it to you. This is the last post in the Phil 2 thread:

Hey Gene! barley! Martian! Shimmer! Marty! Where are all of you guys? Isn't someone going to attempt to answer this point?

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2010,15:42)

Simply when He raised Lazarus from the dead He could have allowed People to think He did it, instead of GOD the Father.

Okay Gene,

Let's say the raising of Lazarus IS the point in Jesus' life when he could have been “in the nature of God”.

After God raised Lazarus through Jesus and people thought of Jesus as having “the form of God”, in what sense was Jesus then “MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?

Do you see it Gene? If he WAS a HUMAN BEING ALREADY, how is it that he “WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING”?

Please actually answer my question Gene. It basically asks how Jesus can be made into a human when he already was one?

It is a DIRECT question. Either give me a DIRECT answer, or admit that you can't.

mike

September 9, 2010 at 3:27 am#215553