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Mike ……….Jesus was (EXACTLY IN EVERY WAY) the same as we are, and we also like Him need to take on the nature of a Servant, being we are also in the Likeness of Man. That was Paul's Point, but you and other preexistences try to change it to something Paul was not even talking about to make you Mystery Religion work, just a trinitarians do to.
We were all made to Image GOD just as Jesus was also, but Jesus existed with that divine Nature (IN) Him on earth as all who have GODS Spirit in them now are they all have GODLY Natures recieved from GOD as Jesus Did, But we should not Get Puffed Up by that or try to rob GOD of his Glory but Humble ourselves as Jesus did and take on the nature of servants also. That was all of Paul's POINT , Paul was not referencing anything to do with Jesus pre-earth existence at all. That was brought in by Trinitarian and Gnostic ideology. This separation of Jesus from our (EXACT IDENTITY) is a corruption of the Word of GOD and His dealing with Mankind it is a false teaching . It is most definitely a teaching of ANTICHRIST. It is a denial of Jesus Fleshly Existence as a Purely Human Being. It set up the man of SIN by turning Jesus into a divine being and causes people to worship him as a GOD or demigod or super angel of some kind. Either way it moves Him away fro our Identity. Either way it serves to moves Jesus away from us Humans and place him somewhere else. It is the very Spirit of ANTICHRIST working in Religion today. Jesus will abolish this LIE when He returns as 2Ths 2 Says He will. Paul as well as John understood this and wrote about it. That LIE was starting at the time of the Apostles but they suppressed it until their deaths and then it took of and in the year of 325 Ad it became the official tenet of all Christendom . This LIE must be destroyed before any true Growth can occur in any Person. Blessed are those who now understand this and relate with Jesus as a Brother of theirs and have no separation between themselves and Him but are common tied with HIM. These are the true Son of GOD Today. IMO
peace and love………………………….gene
Hi Gene,
You said:
Quote Blah, blah, blah……. Just answer a question once in a while Gene. Is it REALLY your understanding that Jesus took on the form of “a particular servant who happened to be in the process of being made in the likeness of a servant at the time”?
Because that's what you twisted the words to imply……so is that REALLY your “final answer”?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 12 2010,12:03) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2010,11:42) Mike Boll, Cats are formed, i.e made, in the likeness of a cat in their mother's womb. An embryonic cat does not look like what we call a cat but by the time it is born it does.
Not so fast there, mister!Can a fully grown cat be made in the likeness of a cat?
mike
Can a cat be made in the likeness of a cat? Yes, a cat can be made in the likeness of a cat.A king can be made in the likeness of another king. A human can be made in the likeness of another human being. A human lord can be made in the likeness of a human servant.
Barley
Hi barley,
Okay…………..please explain to me how something that already IS a cat can be “made in the likeness of a cat”.
And we aren't talking about “kings”, “lords” and “servants” right now. We are talking ONLY about the part that says Jesus was “made in the likeness of a human being”. And it doesn't say “in the likeness of ANOTHER human being”.
Please………do go on.
peace and love,
mikeMike ……….. It say Phi 2:5 -8……….Let the minds be (IN) you, which was (also) in Christ Jesus: who (being) or (Existing) past tense in the form or nature of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD, But (made) or as translated 88 time as (came) or as (made) 74 times or as (done) 63 times, or as (come) 44 times or as (become) 25, or as (became) 18 times . I am not even going to mention all the rest of the different way that word is translated in scriptures, But suffice it to say trying to use this a your basic proof text is futile at best. To any serious seeker of the truth. Trinitarians and Preexistence translator have forced text to conform to there beliefs any why they could, We need to be very cautious of the New Testament Wording. The best way is to do what Paul said search the Old Testament to see if these thing be true or not like the Berans did. If it does not aline with the Old then that should send up a flag to you or any true bible truth seeker. IMO
Mike that is all you do is hang onto only this as your proofs what about all the rest of Scripture , it say it is the Sum of GOD's Word that are truth anyone can take them out of Context and get all kinds of Misunderstandings from them. barely is right IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2010,04:31) Hi barley, Okay…………..please explain to me how something that already IS a cat can be “made in the likeness of a cat”.
And we aren't talking about “kings”, “lords” and “servants” right now. We are talking ONLY about the part that says Jesus was “made in the likeness of a human being”. And it doesn't say “in the likeness of ANOTHER human being”.
Please………do go on.
peace and love,
mike
Well, Mike, maybe you are not talking about it. But I am.Maybe you could tell me how was it that Jesus Christ was in the form of God? God is spirit. John 4:24 Jesus Christ was body and soul until his baptism by John… That was when the spirit from God descended upon him. then he had something that was in the form of God. Body is dust, God is spirit, not dust. God does not literally have soul. Animals and humans have soul. God is not an animal or a human. God is spirit.
With the spirit of God upon JC, he was able to serve God like Moses or Joshua did. Therefore he took upon himself the form of as servant. As the son of God he became (not was made) in to be something like a man. Was he a man, yes, but not a common man.
He was conceived in the womb of Mary by God himself. That is not common. He was the beloved son of God that is whom God is well pleased with. He took on the service of a common man to God. He did not flaunt himself. However, he was obedient to speak what God gave him to speak. He humbled himself to serve even as Moses, Joshua and other men of God (of common conception) served.
He could have flaunted the means by which he was conceived, but he did not. He took upon himself the form of a servant and served God as any other man could and should. In free will loving obedience.
Likeness is used in Romans 6:5 and in Romans 8:3, same Greek word. Likeness is a similarity not an equality.
barley
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,16:58) Mike ……….. It say Phi 2:5 -8……….Let the minds be (IN) you, which was (also) in Christ Jesus: who (being) or (Existing) past tense in the form or nature of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD, But (made) or as translated 88 time as (came) or as (made) 74 times or as (done) 63 times, or as (come) 44 times or as (become) 25, or as (became) 18 times . I am not even going to mention all the rest of the different way that word is translated in scriptures, But suffice it to say trying to use this a your basic proof text is futile at best. To any serious seeker of the truth. Trinitarians and Preexistence translator have forced text to conform to there beliefs any why they could, We need to be very cautious of the New Testament Wording. The best way is to do what Paul said search the Old Testament to see if these thing be true or not like the Berans did. If it does not aline with the Old then that should send up a flag to you or any true bible truth seeker. IMO Mike that is all you do is hang onto only this as your proofs what about all the rest of Scripture , it say it is the Sum of GOD's Word that are truth anyone can take them out of Context and get all kinds of Misunderstandings from them. barely is right IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
[The best way is to do what Paul said search the Old Testament to see if these thing be true or not like the Berans did. If it does not aline with the Old then that should send up a flag to you or any true bible truth seeker. IMO]no ,gene this is not the best way,the best way is letting the spirit guide you,
but this would mean you may never come to the truth ,because of your own way of seeing the word of God.Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 17 2010,10:10) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,16:58) Mike ……….. It say Phi 2:5 -8……….Let the minds be (IN) you, which was (also) in Christ Jesus: who (being) or (Existing) past tense in the form or nature of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD, But (made) or as translated 88 time as (came) or as (made) 74 times or as (done) 63 times, or as (come) 44 times or as (become) 25, or as (became) 18 times . I am not even going to mention all the rest of the different way that word is translated in scriptures, But suffice it to say trying to use this a your basic proof text is futile at best. To any serious seeker of the truth. Trinitarians and Preexistence translator have forced text to conform to there beliefs any why they could, We need to be very cautious of the New Testament Wording. The best way is to do what Paul said search the Old Testament to see if these thing be true or not like the Berans did. If it does not aline with the Old then that should send up a flag to you or any true bible truth seeker. IMO Mike that is all you do is hang onto only this as your proofs what about all the rest of Scripture , it say it is the Sum of GOD's Word that are truth anyone can take them out of Context and get all kinds of Misunderstandings from them. barely is right IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
[The best way is to do what Paul said search the Old Testament to see if these thing be true or not like the Berans did. If it does not aline with the Old then that should send up a flag to you or any true bible truth seeker. IMO]no ,gene this is not the best way,the best way is letting the spirit guide you,
but this would mean you may never come to the truth ,because of your own way of seeing the word of God.Pierre
Have you considered that maybe an good way to find out what the new T has to say is to read the New T? That would be a novel idea, wouldn't it?Since the Old Testament foretells the coming Christ and Paul's epistles tell us the results of the works of the Christ, maybe we should read Paul's epistles to determine what God had Paul write.
After that what the O T teaches may or may not add to that.
There are things in the OT that do not line up with the New unless you take into account the accomplishments of JC.
We are no longer under the law of Moses. Why not? Because of the finished works of JC.
We are no longer compelled to keep the sabbath. Why not? because we are no longer under the law of Moses.
Just for starters.
Oatmeal
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,09:58) Mike that is all you do is hang onto only this as your proofs what about all the rest of Scripture , it say it is the Sum of GOD's Word that are truth anyone can take them out of Context and get all kinds of Misunderstandings from them. barely is right IMO
First Gene,Could you tell me EXACTLY which thing barley said that is “right”? You frequently say anyone opposing pre-existence is “right”,even when their understanding is different from yours.
And the fact that you say I only have this one thing to hang on to proves to me that you acknowledge it IS something you can't refute. But what you say is far from truth because I and many others have shown you many scriptures that CLEARY imply Jesus' pre-existence.
But that's okay…….since you say this is my ONLY “proof”, then why don't you refute it?
There is only one scripture that says “Let US create man in OUR image”, but that's enough to prove God spoke to at least one other person before mankind ever existed, right?
And right now, I'm still waiting for you to explain how someone who already IS a human being can be made in the likeness of a human being.
The question is “HOW?”, Gene – just like it has been for over a month now. Will you ever attempt to answer it with a sensible response?
peace and love,
mikebarley:
Quote Maybe you could tell me how was it that Jesus Christ was in the form of God? God is spirit.
You answered your own question, barley. Jesus was a “spirit being” like God, but emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a HUMAN BEING.barley:
Quote Jesus Christ was body and soul until his baptism by John… That was when the spirit from God descended upon him.
Do not all men live by God's Spirit? Do we not all have it, and when we die it returns to Him that gave it? How is it Jesus was the only human being in existence who for some reason did NOT live by God's Spirit UNTIL he was baptized?barley:
Quote With the spirit of God upon JC, he was able to serve God like Moses or Joshua did.
Yet Moses and Joshua never had “was made in the likeness of a human being” said about them. Why? Because unlike Jesus, they were never anything but human beings to start with.barley:
Quote As the son of God he became (not was made) in to be something like a man.
And again, you answer your own point barley. To “become” something “like a man”, he must have been “something UNLIKE a man” previously.barley:
Quote He was the beloved son of God that is whom God is well pleased with. He took on the service of a common man to God. He did not flaunt himself.
So when did he “act” in a way or do something that made him seem like what Paul called “being in the form of God”? And since after that he “became” in the likeness of a human being, what “likeness” did he have before? Even as a highly respected HUMAN servant of God who performed many signs, no one could have confused him as “something other than a human being”, so it would make no sense to say he was made in the likeness of a human being.barley:
Quote He could have flaunted the means by which he was conceived, but he did not. He took upon himself the form of a servant and served God as any other man could and should.
It's true that many other men served God. But none of them were said to be “existing in the form of God” at any point of their existence, nor were any said to have emptied themselves to become in the likeness of a human being.peace and love,
mikeMike……………How do you figure barley's view is different then mine , He believes Jesus was a Human Being coming into existence through a the women Mary. You should not try to lie and separate people who believe the same as we do. You say barely does not believe as I show show where that is true. When it comes to Jesus human existence through his Berth from Mary as a Pure human Being.
Jesus never emptied himself of God's Spirit as you think he did, He emptied himself of the Position he could have used to Glorify himself and took on the form of a humble servant. That was all of Paul's Point and You falsely try to alter that to some pre-earth existence of Jesus . When Paul was talking of who Jesus in his earthly preexistence before he died and went to heaven that was the Only preexistence Paul was talking about. It is obvious from the context of what Paul was saying. Pulling on word out of context is the only way you preexistences can twist what the context is saying. And even that word is translated in many different ways as i have posted for you. IMO and others i might add.
Mike………..Have your ever looked up that word Form to see what it means , Seeing GOD Has no form or at least no one has seen him so it must be talking about the Nature of GOD. Jesus had recieved that nature into Him at the Jordan river or why even mention it in scripture if that was not the time of him receiving it. God Came and Indwelt Jesus Just like Jesus said the FATHER (IS) IN ME. When are you goint to understand that GOD the FATHER was (actually) Present (IN) the MAN JESUS. why do you think Thomas came to say My Lord (AND) My GOD , GOD the Father was (IN) Him, but that did not make Him God or any different then we are , as human beings GOD can also Cohabit in Us to. That Nature of GOD was indeed (IN) Jesus He just did not try to Glorify Himself with It but Kept Humble as a servant of GOD . Jesus kept himself Humble as a Man should , but you preexistence try to push him to the Position GOD or demigod or Morphed Angle and produce no scripture to show the Morph Process and just hunt for any thing you can pervert scriptures with. And as i said before so don't be surprised if when Jesus returns you and the rest of the preexistences who separator Jesus from our Likeness are turned away, after all YOU really are not like Jesus any way right ? He is obviously is (NOT) Your BROTHER, nor are you a JOINT HEIR with him either it seems you don't identify with Him and want other not to also. And you think that is not the Spirit of Antichrist.
Mike it would be interesting to hear how you do Identify with Jesus in what way do you relate with Him tell us, it is Obviously not as a Brother of His so How do you relate. In your mind GOD did perfect Him because he was already perfect and He could not have grown in favor with GOD and Man Because he was already in favor with GOD Right. He could not have LEARNED OBEDIENCE BY THE THINGS HE SUFFERED right because He already knew that Right. Don't you see how many scripture you are going against by teaching the false doctrine of Preexistence those teaching are no better then the teaching of the Trinity is. Both are Antichrist teachings. IMO
peace and love………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,13:14) Mike……………How do you figure barley's view is different then mine
Gene, I asked you to tell me exactly what part of barley's previous post you thought was “right”. You haven't told me yet. It was the post where he said that something that already was a cat could be made in the likeness of a cat. Please tell me which part of that post he is “right” about……..and why you think that.mike
Mike ……………Fact is a Cat is a cat an animal, and Jesus was and is a man because he is a man. and Yes he came into existence as a man just like we did through DNA and being BORN (not morphed as you think) of a women as we are. We all act out roles in life and that included Jesus He took on the Human role of a servant even though he had IN him the Nature of GOD He did not use that to glorify himself as He could have and that would have broke faith with God as Mose did at the waters of Meriba. He could have robbed GOD of Glory by letting people think He was doing the Works that was be done through Him but he did nit do that as i have shown before at the resurrection of Lazarus. Paul's only point was to show the (HUMILITY)of the man Jesus not his Berth existence at all> You twist up scripture to try to make it about what Paul was not even talking about. Jesus berth had nothing to do with the context of what Paul was stalking about. Just you preexistences trying to grab straws to shore up you false doctrine and teachings.
Peace and love………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 17 2010,14:06) We all act out roles in life and that included Jesus He took on the Human role of a servant
Is that what the scripture said Gene? That Jesus was a human who took on the human role of a servant?Or does it say that Jesus took on the form of a servant…….AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING?
And where's your brother Kerwin? Did he realize the truth but was too ashamed to admit it? There is no shame in correcting your understanding of scripture in light of scriptural evidence Kerwin. In fact, if that is the case, the angels are shouting for joy at your new-found understanding that is in line with scripture.
peace and love,
mikeMike………..That is absolutely Paul's point Jesus a man was existing with the Nature of GOD (which he recieved at the Jordan) He was existing that way (IN) his Flesh life (ON) earth and Being a Human Flesh being He Humbled Himself, and By that humbling, He was taking on the nature of a man Servant not only to God but us all, That was Paul's context and Point , you desperate Preexistences tare Paul simple meanings apart to place you dogmas there when Paul had No intent of saying what you are saying what soever.
peace and love……………………………gene
Hi Gene,
I don't think that's what Paul was saying at all, but that's a moot point. I would like to discuss with you and Kerwin exactly what message Paul was trying to convey…………but after we agree on the words he himself wrote.
Can you agree that your understanding has Paul writing that someone who already was a human being was made in the likeness of a human being?
peace and love,
mikeMike Boll,
You wrote:
Quote Here's the bottom line Kerwin: If Jesus already was a human being while “being in the form of God”, he could not be said to have “emptied himself” and been “made in human likeness”.
I see you came up with a base I had not thought of. If I understand your interpretation correctly Jesus first had the nature of God and then afterward was made in human likeness. I on the other hand see that Jesus has the righteous nature of God at the same time he was made into human likeness.
Both seem logical if you first assume for you viewpoint that Jesus is preexistent or for my viewpoint that he was made in his mother’s reproductive system. Since this scripture can be interpreted either way it is not a determinate scripture that determines which viewpoint is true.
I differ with Gene as I believe God gifted Jesus at the Jordon with the authority to do miracles and as heir to the throne he would later take as King of heaven and earth. On the other hand Jesus walked according to the ways of the Holy Spirit all his life and so must have received it instead or in addition to the impure spirit of man.
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