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Mike
I believe there may be a misunderstanding. When I first read your questions I thought you were asking if "Jesus" himself was the prince of demons.
But it is obvious to me that "Beelzebub" is satan.
WJ
Hi Keith,
The scholars and I agree with you.
2 Kings 1:2-3
Now Ahaziah had fallen through the lattice of his upper room in Samaria and injured himself. So he sent messengers, saying to them, “Go and consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if I will recover from this injury.” But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, “Go up and meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and ask them, ‘Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going off to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?’My point is that Beelzebub, or Satan, truly is a real live god, as recognized by Paul and Jehovah Himself. So when Moses speaks of the "gods of Egypt", or God speaks of the "god of Ekron", they are not speaking about man-made idols, but powerful spirit beings rightly called gods. The "Prince of Persia" would fit into this category also, although he is never called a god specifically.
Which means when Paul speaks of our "one God" right after he says there are many gods, he is not saying there is LITERALLY only one god. He is empasizing the Father as the "Most High God", or the "God OF gods".
There is also this:
26 When the king of Moab saw that the battle was too fierce for him, he took with him 700 men who drew swords, to break through to the king of Edom; but they could not. 27 Then he took his oldest son who was to reign in his place, and offered him as a burnt offering on the wall. And there came great wrath against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land.We know the King of Moab didn't sacrifice his son to YHWH, right? But whoever he sacrificed his son to apparently acted on this sacrifice and brought "great wrath against Israel" after YHWH granted them the main victory.
How do we understand things like this? While YHWH was showing great signs and wonders in Egypt, other gods were able to match His signs and wonders – up to a point.
When God sent an angel to answer Daniel's prayer, another god detained that angel for 21 days, until a more powerful angel came to help. God surely didn't send His angel just to detain that angel Himself, right?
This just shows that there are many gods, whether in heaven or on earth, but God Almigthy will prevail because He is the God of those gods. The gods of Egypt were defying their own God, just as many human beings have the free will and the power to do. God executed judgment upon them eventually, and showed His Supremacy over them. But the signs and wonders they performed before God kicked butt were truly the acts of very powerful spirit beings who were able to have sway over men and nature. This is the definition of "god" yet today, and these were very truly gods who were not God Almighty, just as Moses said.
We may still disagree about this, but scripture bears out MY understanding of it.
mike
'Gods' means 'Mighty Ones'.
'in the midst of the Mighty One's'
'God executes judgement on the Mighty Ones of Egypt – the Rulers'Judgement is executed on the Human Mighty Rulers – as obviously what is the point of judging a stone statue or wooden idol – as Mike says!
Although credence needs to be given for a FIGURATIVE judgement such that God AlMighty might show the people that their God's (Mighty idols – Subjects of Worship) of wood and stone are just so!
If one thinks of GOD as ALMIGHTY GOD and then say there are 'lesser AlMighty Gods' then confusion will reign.
Only the ONE TRUE GOD, YHVH, is the giver of REAL power.
But one who is over all others in their class can also be said to be a 'God' meaning 'Most Powerful'.Pick a group of Male Lions – can one of them be 'More Powerful' than the rest – is he not the 'God' of that pride? Does not mean he is the giver of power – just that he is greatest among them… Nothing more – nothing to dispute.
Have I not called WJ 'a God in this forum' – can WJ give anyone power – no! So how is he 'a God'?
Simple : WJ is the greatest of all in HIS class in this forum as Trinitarian….WJ is a Trinitarian GOD…in the CLASS of TRINITARIANS in the forum.
Moses was called 'As God to his brother Aaron' and over the Israelites because he spoke the words of GOD ALMIGHTY directly to them and performed deeds BY THE power of God Almighty – not of himself.No 'Human' God gave Power to another excepting that that Power was first given to that human by God (E.g, Pharoah).
No 'Stone or wood' God gave power to anyone!A grave error in thinking can be avoided by NOT thinking of the word 'God' as a Person – but as a Title – like KING!
There can indeed be MANY KINGS but ONLY ONE can be KING OF ALL KINGS.Moreover, even KING can be analogised to human ideals such that errors can creep in for human Kings rule in their own kingdom and do not have Demi-kings below them!
God Almighty, YHVH, is not imitatable in human form for He is the source of ALL POWER. a human King is not ALL POWERFUL for even he could not sustain himself without Helpers and requires input from his ministers – God uses his ministers for His and our convenience – not from necessity.
Which human could live if God were to appear to them in person? Not one – the flesh would resolve away – Only in purity of Spirit can we behold the pure raw Glory of God Almighty, YHVH!
Istari,
Do you think they used "slight of hand" to turn staffs into snakes or produce frogs out of thin air? Do you think they were perfoming "magic tricks"?
Istari
Quote God Almighty, YHVH, is not imitatable in human form for He is the source of ALL POWER. a human King is not ALL POWERFUL for even he could not sustain himself without Helpers and requires input from his ministers – God uses his ministers for His and our convenience – not from necessity.
Excellent point here and one I been trying to emphasis on for the longest time.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,00:33) Read it one more time, D. Jesus is fully aware of who Beelzebub is. He refers to him also as "Satan". The "claim" to which you refer is that the Jews "claimed" that's how he drove out demons, not that they were "claiming" Beelzebub was Satan.
Keith, what do YOU think? Is "Beelzebub" another name for the "Prince of demons", otherwise known as "Satan"?
Kerwin? What do YOU think from the passage?
Anyone else?
mike
Mr. Amnesia,I have no clue what your talking about. 1. your started to state that Jesus is Beelzebub. Here:
Quote Do you believe Jesus that he is the Prince of the Demons and the Ruler of them? Do you believe him to be the one called "Satan"?
I interpreted your Question as if Your asking if Jesus is the prince of demons or IE Beelzebub or Satan.Of course I stated No. So I dont get what else you want from me?
Your not making sense, maybe You had a typo or something or Im just Not Getting your point.Maybe you should:
"Read it one more time, M"
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,09:49) Istari Quote God Almighty, YHVH, is not imitatable in human form for He is the source of ALL POWER. a human King is not ALL POWERFUL for even he could not sustain himself without Helpers and requires input from his ministers – God uses his ministers for His and our convenience – not from necessity.
Excellent point here and one I been trying to emphasis on for the longest time.
Really D? Istari is saying that Jesus couldn't have possibly been "God in the flesh". Have you really been trying to get this point across for the longest time?
SF,
Thanks but thought we all knew that – is Mike saying that there were Almighty Gods in Pharoah's court under the orders of Pharoah who played silly magic games?
These people were MAGICIANS – says so in my NKJV Bible and so does EVERYONE else that has ever written about that i know of!
Yep – clearly says 'Magicians' …Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,10:08) Mr. Amnesia, I have no clue what your talking about. 1. your started to state that Jesus is Beelzebub. Here:
Quote Do you believe Jesus that he is the Prince of the Demons and the Ruler of them? Do you believe him to be the one called "Satan"?
I interpreted your Question as if Your asking if Jesus is the prince of demons or IE Beelzebub or Satan.
No, I was right that it is YOU who needs to read things better. This is the "Beelzebub" line of questions:Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,17:58) Who is "Beelzebub" guys? Any idea? Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,19:33) Exactly Pierre. So is it safe to say that Beelzebub is Satan, the ruler of the demons of whom Jesus spoke?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2011,06:21) D, you didn't answer my question about Beelzebub. Do you believe Jesus that he (MEANING BEELZEBUB OF COURSE) is the Prince of the Demons and the Ruler of them? Do you believe him to be the one called "Satan"? So now that you know I'm NOT asking if Jesus was Beelzebub or Satan
, please answer the question. Do you believe Beelzebub to be Satan, the Prince of the Demons?Mike,
'God in the Flesh' has two connotations:
1) God Almighty transformed himself into a flesh body
2) The 'Glory' of God was in a flesh bodyTrinitarians try to use (1) as 'proof' that Jesus IS GOD… but can easily and simply be shown to be wrong seeing that Jesus said that no one has seen God.
(Oh, please, don't bring up Philip and Thomas… The disciples hardly fell down in Worship when Jesus said 'If you see me then you also see the father' and Thomas' reaction was concerning Jesus being raised from the dead and was standing in front of him)
If Thomas and the other disciples had seen God then Jesus – And God (ha !!) – were lying (And God cannot lie!!)In (2) Jesus is the HUMANISED glory of God – a sinless Human being perfectly reflecting the qualities of God – the Glory of God – imitating God in a limited human manner – for we were made in His Image.
Mike, SF, I am not saying that Jesus is (1) God in the flesh but the human reflection of the Glory of God(2).
Okay, but we're getting off topic with this, Istari.
The discussion is about whether or not there is literally only one god in existence. The fact that Jehovah is the God OF gods should settle the whole discussion, but for some odd reason hasn't.
You are correct that "god" is a title for a mighty one. But these mighty ones include angels, demons, Satan, and Jesus. These are all gods, literally, because they are all mighty ones, literally.
Do you agree, Istari?
Hi Mike,
Quote The One who gave our "one Lord" all power and authority was his own God, who just happens to be our God too.
Actually There is only One Lord and One God who is the only Savior who is the all powerfull and source of it All, which is the Soverighn God allmighty who Identifies Himself as the Father, Son, and Holyspirit.Quote It means exactly what Paul said: That there are many gods, but for us only One. Satan IS a god, but not my god.
You do realize that Paul was talking to the Corinthians about Eating of scrafices and Idols. Why do you always skip the Context?
1st off:
4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.on Pauls FIRST PREMISE, that THERE IS NO OTHER GOD.
He makes TWO Points 1. that Idols are nothing. 2. that there is only ONE GOD.2nd point: 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
You do realize Paul first states that there are CALLED gods not that they are gods in reality. Just like there are many beliefs and kings who would make you call them a king or a deity.
There is so much of that in the polytheistic view, because the CORINTHIANS worshiped MANY GODS paganly.
So Of course Paul would Address that.And finally 3rd:
6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.ITs very simple, there is only ONE GOD and ONE LORD.
Why do you continue to believe in other entities.
I could imagine you sitting on your wheel chair thinking about how come everyone doesnt understand you, but Mike you do err in so many points.
Even your own comrades at times point out to you that you deceive yourself and informing you that your knowledge is carnal, and not by revelation.
Take a second and think, MAYBE we got a point, and MAYBE you should reconsider your position, as I have MANY TIMES reconsidered mine and always ready to adapt to the changes that are requiered of me.Quote True, we are to worship only the God who created all things, not any of His creations, of which Jesus is His first.
I feel like slapping you silly until your wrinkles become smooth again.
Jesus Created all things, you, as much as you want CANNOT deny this. Jesus created the heavens and the Earth therefore your point just fails.Quote D, God can't possibly "execute judgment" on a man-made idol, can He? A man-made idol can't possibly turn staffs into snakes and make frogs appear out of nowhere, can it? But "execute judgment"…………….where have we heard that before?
Actually NOT everything that Man worshipped was a MAN-Made Idol. The IDOLS represented of WHAT they worshipped. For example The Egyptains had MANY Gods that for each god they had an Idol for. Soooooo for they Worshipped the Sun, Ra the Ruler of all the other gods, and RA was represented by the Sun. The Egyptians had a portrait of what they thought this god looked like and that He IS the Sun. They had a god for the nile and for so many other things, IN WHICH the PLAUGES of God destroyed the things that they worshipped the most.
Even the Firstborn who slept nearest to the floor died because they were given such a high importance.God destoryed the things these people worshipped and left there religious system violated and destroyed.
So Of course when God states that He will Execute Judgment!!I liked what Paul said to you here:
Jeremiah 10:10-12, for instance, is a classic compare/contrast:"But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King At His wrath the earth quakes, And the nations cannot endure His indignation. Thus you shall say to them, "The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens." It is He who made the earth by His power, Who established the world by His wisdom; And by His understanding He has stretched out the heavens."
So your theory is flawed because eventually all these other gods will perish, and are not the one True LIVING God who created the heavens and the earth.Quote Kerwin thinks that this "assembly of gods" is referring to humans. But what group of human beings ever assembled in the presence of God Himself? We know from Job 1, that Satan, who IS a god according to Paul, partook in one of these assemblies, when the sons of god came to present themselves before God Almighty.
You could speculate that but thats not true. Job simply presents the Idea that Satan and other beings we call "Bene-Elohim" came in to the presence of God and thats it.
1. point is that It doesnt state that Satan is part of these "bene-elohim" it just states that Satan also came with them, and amoung them, not that he is ONE of them.
2. Its not refering to a assemply of Judgement at all.
so its just your speculation.Isnt your whole idea of Church and a Temple is to assemble yourselfs in the presence of God?
Doesnt scripture also state that God is IN us, and that assembling of us in Heaven and what not?
Hebrews 12:22-24 (King James Version)22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Quote Moses is referring to YHWH traveling along with them in the cloud of smoke, and speaking directly to them from Mt. Horeb, etc. But idols are generally in the very tents that people live in. Yet Moses is claiming that YHWH is closer to the nation of Israel than the gods of the other nations are to those nations, so he can't be speaking of idols that "dwell" in their very homes, can he?
Umm its very simple Mike, Men believed this Idols to be amazing and to be all powerful. Duhhh? Thats why Moses was making the Emphasis, and makes a further Empahsis when He states that this God will BE THIER GOD, and they his people, and he WILL DWELL AMOUNG them.
So of course its closer.Quote
Is Samuel saying that YHWH used His mighty power to redeem a nation from the power of man-made idols?
Maybe you skipped this verse.
Ezekiel 14:3
Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
The Reason Why God hates idols is not about the physical molden image, but what they represent which is Mans Wicks heart and imaginations.Quote Not me, but Moses and Samuel and King David and Asaph and Paul and YHWH Himself, among others.
Of course Moses, Samuel, David and etc would say that God is the savior of mankind not themselves, and that he is THE only one, which I already given you the biblcal proofs.Quote True. They are truly gods, but the God OF those other gods is the "only true God".
They are not truely gods, and the God of them all whom consist of Jesus Christ who created it all, and by all things exist, is that True God who you deny.Quote A polytheist worships more than one god. I can't remember the name for what I am, but I believe like those in scripture that there are many gods, but only One who is worthy of our worship and service, because He alone created us as His children and loves us and has done so much for us.
No, its the belief of MANY gods. Each Town in greece had thier OWN god, or respected a certain god, or worshipped a certain god, though they respected all, they served one of those many.
You are a Polytheist, and Its sad because your all puffed up about it. The only Reason your heading this route is because you refuse to accept that Jesus is the True Living "God with us".Quote I agree that the Creator of the heavens and the earth and everything in them, who is the God OF all other gods, is the only One worthy of the English capital "G".
Which is Jesus Christ.Quote D, many people are lost in 21st century thinking. You've gone as far as to say that the one human being who saw the back of God and spoke to Him directly was confused because of his polytheistic beginnings. Surely Moses knew more about the things of God than anyone else who ever walked the earth except for Jesus, yet you claim him to have been confused or something. That's not good logic or faith.
No mIke, this has nothing to do with 21st century thinking, it has everything to do with what your trying to twist and turn to fit you views.
And I never Claimed that Moses was confused, in contrary becasue he grew up in the polythesitic faith, he should know so much about it. So "my claim you to have been confused or soemthing". WITH Good logic and faith, which you seem to depend on the carnal thinking of it all.Quote Instead of looking up idols, look up "gods". Many times it is clear from the context that these "gods" ARE man-made idols. But many other times, there is no indication whatsoever that the inspired writer of scripture meant anything other than a real bonafide god. We can today imagine that they were speaking of some "false god", but that isn't even hinted at in the scriptures.
Scriptures speak accuratly when they speak of the ONE TRUE GOD, so obvisouly one can conclude what a supposed god should have and doesnt, isnt really a god.
Its common sense, something your lacking for some odd reason.Quote When Moses said that YHWH executed judgment on the gods of Egypt, that is exactly what he meant. God executed judgment on the gods who turned staffs into snakes and performed other mighty signs. God executed judgment on some of those who assemble with Him on occasion in the assembly of gods.
I already answered for this above. Demonic forces give power and to mighty things, doesnt mean they are a force compared to God? Look at what Satan did to Job, because God allowed him to do so. So your premise is just faulty.Quote If you focus on only the "Lord" issue, things will become more clear. Jesus is said to be our "ONE Lord", right? But we know that can't be taken to mean that Jesus is LITERALLY the ONLY lord who ever existed, right? It is a statement of emphasis, placing him ABOVE all the other lords we might have, but not a literal statement that there has only ever been one lord, and the rest of them were "false lords".
Its not really about them being false lords mike, in the way you think i mean it. the reason I say they are "false" is because they are the source. When I say false, i mean not the True one, meaning doesnt mean they never existed or were never lords, but they are simply not the True Source of it all. Its a state of clarity to make sure to give distinctions of what im speaking of.But litearlly Jesus is that ONE LORD, because he is the source of it all.
Here is the things about humans, we ALL depend on eachother where God in the otherhand is omnipotent.
Quote If you can understand this, then you can also understand why "one God" does not mean there have never been any other gods in existence. It is a statement of emphasis, placing Jehovah ABOVE all the other gods, which is why He is the God OF gods.
Actually your twisting a corner of the truth to fit your ideals mike. Your doing this by exagerating the emphasis to an extreme where the Writers never meant it to maen.
And what you believe is beyond scripture, in other words your relying on the ideas of "what if" and what is "not said" in scripture which is a fallacy on your part.
For example look at what you said:
"does not mean there have never been any other gods in existence"
Dude seriously? is that written in scripture?
of course not, I rather read what it says and believe it when its says ONE GOD.Do what you must, Mike. Just make sure to READ the whole thing and tell me that you have indeed read what i took time to respond, for mutual respect.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,22:03) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,10:08) Mr. Amnesia, I have no clue what your talking about. 1. your started to state that Jesus is Beelzebub. Here:
Quote Do you believe Jesus that he is the Prince of the Demons and the Ruler of them? Do you believe him to be the one called "Satan"?
I interpreted your Question as if Your asking if Jesus is the prince of demons or IE Beelzebub or Satan.
No, I was right that it is YOU who needs to read things better. This is the "Beelzebub" line of questions:Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,17:58) Who is "Beelzebub" guys? Any idea? Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 21 2011,19:33) Exactly Pierre. So is it safe to say that Beelzebub is Satan, the ruler of the demons of whom Jesus spoke?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 24 2011,06:21) D, you didn't answer my question about Beelzebub. Do you believe Jesus that he (MEANING BEELZEBUB OF COURSE) is the Prince of the Demons and the Ruler of them? Do you believe him to be the one called "Satan"? So now that you know I'm NOT asking if Jesus was Beelzebub or Satan
, please answer the question. Do you believe Beelzebub to be Satan, the Prince of the Demons?
Mike,
What makes you think i was reading the other posts that asked that question?
I only read the posts that you posted towards me on that occassion, In which you wrote it all wierd and stuff.Even KIETH was thinking the same thing i was thinkin old man.
You got problems.
Honest truth to answer your question, I wouldnt know who beelzebub Is, because scriptures doesnt really give a clear emphasis of who or what he is, other than a prince of demons whom the JEWS believed were so.
I Do believe that Jesus made a clear distinction between Satan and Beelzebub being seperate beings because of the kingdom dividing it self, like a civil war.
thats were always my first thoughts about it, but it doesnt really matter.
here is some wiki for you to ponder about
Religious meaningBa‘al Zəbûb is variously understood to mean "lord of flies",[2][3][4][5] or "lord of the (heavenly) dwelling".[6][7][8] Originally the name of a Philistine god,[9] Beelzebub is also identified in the New Testament as Satan, the "prince of the demons".[10][11] In Arabic the name is retained as Ba‘al dhubaab / zubaab (بعل ألذباب), literally "Lord of the Flies". Biblical scholar Thomas Kelly Cheyne suggested that it might be a derogatory corruption of Ba‘al Zəbûl, "Lord of the High Place" (i.e., Heaven) or "High Lord".[12] The word Beelzebub in rabbinical texts is a mockery of the Ba'al religion, which ancient Hebrews considered to be idol (or, false God) worship.[13] Ba'al, meaning "Lord" in Ugaritic, was used in conjunction with a descriptive name of a specific God. Jewish scholars have interpreted the title of "Lord of Flies" as the Hebrew way of calling Ba'al a pile of dung, and comparing Ba'al followers to flies. [14][15] The Septuagint renders the name as Baalzebub (βααλζεβούβ) and as Baal muian (βααλ μυιαν, "Baal of flies"), but Symmachus the Ebionite may have reflected a tradition of its offensive ancient name when he rendered it as Beelzeboul.[16]
The source for the name Ba‘al Zebûb / Beelzebub is in 2 Kings 1:2-3, 6, 16 where King Ahaziah of Kingdom of Israel (Samaria), after seriously injuring himself in a fall, sends messengers to inquire of Ba‘al Zebûb, the god of the Philistine city of Ekron, to learn if he will recover.
Ahaziah fell through the lattice in his upper chamber at Samaria and was injured. So he sent messengers whom he instructed: "Go inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this injury." (JPS translation)
Elijah the Prophet then condemns Ahaziah to die by Yahweh's words because Ahaziah sought counsel from Ba‘al Zebûb rather than from Yahweh.
In Mark 3:22, the Pharisees accuse Jesus of driving out demons by the power of Beelzeboul, prince of demons, the name also appearing in the expanded version in Matthew 12:24,27 and Luke 11:15,18-19. The name also occurs in Matthew 10:25.
Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.─Matthew 12:25-28
It is unknown whether Symmachus was correct in identifying these names because we otherwise know nothing about either of them. Zeboul might derive from a slurred pronunciation of zebûb; from 'zebel', a word used to mean 'dung' in the Targums; or from Hebrew zebûl found in 1 Kings 8:13 in the phrase bêt-zebûl 'lofty house' and used in Rabbinical writings to mean 'house' or 'temple' and also as the name for the fourth heaven.[citation needed]
In any case, the form Beelzebub was substituted for Beelzeboul in the Syriac translation and Latin Vulgate translation of the gospels and this substitution was repeated in the King James Version of the Bible, the result of which is the form Beelzeboul was mostly unknown to western European and descendant cultures until some more recent translations restored it.
It is unknown if either or both of these names were a title applied to persons, to divinities exclusively, or otherwise were a corruption of such a title, possibly as a degeneration.
It is well known that scholars are divided, in regard to the god of Ekron, between the belief that zebub may be the original affix to Baal and that it is a substitute for an original zbl which, after the discoveries of Ras Shamra, has been connected with the title of "prince", frequently a
ttributed to Baal in mythological texts. In addition to the intrinsic weakness of this last position, which is not supported by the versions is the fact that it was long ago suggested that there was a relationship between the Philistine god and cults of fly or apotropaic divinities appearing in the Hellenic world, such as Zeus Apomyios or Myiagros. It is exactly this last connection which is confirmed by the Ugaritic text when we examine how Baal affects the expulsion of the flies which are the cause of the patient's sickness. Obviously, this series of elements may be inconclusive as evidence, but the fact that in relationship to Baal Zebub the two constituent terms are here linked, joined by a function (ndy) which is typical of some divinities attested in the Mediterranean world, is a strong argument in favor of the authenticity of the name of the god of Ekron, and of his possible therapeutic activities, which are implicit in 2 Kings 1:2-3, etc.[17]Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,21:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,09:49) Istari Quote God Almighty, YHVH, is not imitatable in human form for He is the source of ALL POWER. a human King is not ALL POWERFUL for even he could not sustain himself without Helpers and requires input from his ministers – God uses his ministers for His and our convenience – not from necessity.
Excellent point here and one I been trying to emphasis on for the longest time.
Really D? Istari is saying that Jesus couldn't have possibly been "God in the flesh". Have you really been trying to get this point across for the longest time?
Here is the Thing about God, He is God of the greatest of things, and also the God of the Least of all things because He is omnipotent, so he can do all things.I Liked the clarity in which Istari was stating how humans kings are dependannt and God is not.
Its that simpleQuote (Istari @ May 29 2011,22:36) Mike,
'God in the Flesh' has two connotations:
1) God Almighty transformed himself into a flesh body
2) The 'Glory' of God was in a flesh bodyTrinitarians try to use (1) as 'proof' that Jesus IS GOD… but can easily and simply be shown to be wrong seeing that Jesus said that no one has seen God.
(Oh, please, don't bring up Philip and Thomas… The disciples hardly fell down in Worship when Jesus said 'If you see me then you also see the father' and Thomas' reaction was concerning Jesus being raised from the dead and was standing in front of him)
If Thomas and the other disciples had seen God then Jesus – And God (ha !!) – were lying (And God cannot lie!!)In (2) Jesus is the HUMANISED glory of God – a sinless Human being perfectly reflecting the qualities of God – the Glory of God – imitating God in a limited human manner – for we were made in His Image.
Mike, SF, I am not saying that Jesus is (1) God in the flesh but the human reflection of the Glory of God(2).
I could agree with what Istari said, which isnt far from the Trinitarian belief.While Jesus was on earth, he was the humanized role, the Son of God, the Glory of God, but limited.
He is the limited known part of the unknownable God.
I dont believe that God changed EVERYTHING about himself in to a human body, that would be silly.
Quote (Istari @ May 29 2011,21:56) SF,
Thanks but thought we all knew that – is Mike saying that there were Almighty Gods in Pharoah's court under the orders of Pharoah who played silly magic games?
These people were MAGICIANS – says so in my NKJV Bible and so does EVERYONE else that has ever written about that i know of!
Yep – clearly says 'Magicians' …
Istari,
Mike is playing word games and while in the same time, his games are becoming is own truth.
he is believeing a extreme.Its like saying "Chris Angel" mind freak is a god too.
Come on now…Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
which is the Soverighn God allmighty who Identifies Himself as the Father, Son, and Holyspirit.
What scripture was that again? 
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
You do realize Paul first states that there are CALLED gods not that they are gods in reality.
Lame. The reason something is usually CALLED something is because that something IS the something it is CALLED. I am CALLED a human being because I AM a human being. Also, Paul goes on to say "for there are gods many and lords many", right? I don't see the word CALLED in that phrase, do you? Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
Jesus Created all things, you, as much as you want CANNOT deny this. Jesus created the heavens and the Earth therefore your point just fails.
Now if you guys had only ONE little scripture that said Jesus CREATED anything, you'd be well on your way. Let me know when you find that scripture, okay?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
Actually NOT everything that Man worshipped was a MAN-Made Idol.
Now you're coming along. Let's talk about Beelzebub, the one Jesus called "Satan", and God called "the god of Ekron". Hmmmmm……………GOD HIMSELF called Satan "the god of Ekron", and was mad that Ahaziah sent to find out from him how his injury would turn out instead of finding it out from the God of Israel. Look what God said to him:
2 Kings 1:3
But the angel of the LORD said to Elijah the Tishbite, “Go up and meet the messengers of the king of Samaria and ask them, ‘Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going off to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?’
See D? God didn't say Beelzebub was NOT a god at all, did He? In fact, he was mad that Ahaziah would blow Him off to go consult a DIFFERENT god.D, go read the whole chapter of 1 Samuel 28. It was not YHWH who summoned Samuel from the grave to talk to Saul, because YHWH forbid this activity. What does that tell you? It means that other spirits besides God have the power to foretell the future or speak to the dead. God does not want us dealing with these other gods in activities such as this, which is why He forbade us from consulting with spiritists and mediums. It's not because it's "fake hocus pocus" like Istari seems to think, but because it is very real magic that God doesn't, for whatever reason He sees fit, want us to partake in.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
I liked what Paul said to you here:
Jeremiah 10:10-12, for instance, is a classic compare/contrast:
I hope you equally liked my response to it, complete with the NETNotes quote.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
1. point is that It doesnt state that Satan is part of these "bene-elohim" it just states that Satan also came with them, and amoung them, not that he is ONE of them.
That fits right in with your "it says CALLED gods, not that they ARE gods" logic.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
Of course Moses, Samuel, David and etc would say that God is the savior of mankind not themselves, and that he is THE only one,
But it was Samuel who wrote that Saul was the savior that delivered Israel from the hands of the Philistines. Did Samuel think Saul WAS God, since God was "THE only one"?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
No, its the belief of MANY gods.
The belief AND WORSHIP of many gods, despite what Keith has posted. D, do YOU believe that Satan is real? If "YES", then YOU believe IN Satan. And both YHWH and Paul called Satan a god. So if YOU believe that Satan is a real being, then YOU believe in more than one god. Are YOU a polytheist?Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
The only Reason your heading this route is because you refuse to accept that Jesus is the True Living "God with us".
See Istari? This is what I was telling you before. The ONLY reason that D must insist there be LITERALLY only ONE God, is because if there is LITERALLY only ONE, and Jesus IS a god, then Jesus must BE that only ONE.He is trying to put YOU in the precarious postion of saying that Jesus is either THE ONLY TRUE GOD, or that he must be some "false god".
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 29 2011,12:22)
Its not really about them being false lords mike, in the way you think i mean it. the reason I say they are "false" is because they are the source. When I say false, i mean not the True one,
D, I have never been more proud of you than I am right now! You have hit the nail right on the head. YES, just because Jesus is called our "one Lord" does NOT mean that all the other lords in the
scriptures are "false lords", but that they are not the "true one" or the "Lord OF lords". So it has become crystal clear to me that you actually DO understand the concept that Jesus being called our "ONE Lord" does NOT exclude the existence of other lords, but is a STATEMENT OF EMPHASIS, like I've been saying all along!It is the SAME EXACT THING with "one God"! And THAT, my friend, is the end of the discussion. You have admitted that you understand the non-literal, metaphoric use of "one Lord", and that seals the verdict. So now you can claim that although "one Lord" is not literal, "one God" is, but to do that, you must ignore many scriptures, not to mention the words Paul used in the same exact sentence, "there are gods MANY and lords MANY".
Go ahead and base YOUR understanding of the scriptures on only some of them if you want to. As for me, I will take them ALL into account when forming my understanding.
deuces,
mikeMike,
NO – I do not agree…Simple word substitution does not work here in context.
Your tenet is that 'God' or 'Mighty One' are equivalent to 'Almighty God'.
The 'Gods' that are Angels – where does Scriptures say Angels are Gods? – of which only SATAN is spoken of – and WHY? because he is one of the Angelic PRINCES of Heaven – of which he is the One that has Fallen. In his challenge to God Almighty he was allowed to have power and authority – and TIME – to prove God Almighty wrong that man could only live by Him (YHVH).
Satan was given the Earth to rule over as his domain to 'do his worst' except not to allow man to annihilate himself. Therefore Satan is called 'the God of this system of things'. Satan GIVES Power and Authority to whom he wills thus creating havoc in his false pride – he gives riches to the wicked and impoverishes the spiritually good – he encourages confusion as to righteousness and creates a life in the flesh by a 'have your reward now' attitude…he makes the great minds of this world believe they can SAVE the world by their inventions or through 'loving each other' or by technological means – or moving to a different planet or by saving the Whale or by generating electricity (POWER!!!!!!) by Nuclear Fusion in Reactors…POWER – ALWAYS POWER – everything POWER!!! for aren't all things made from the POWER of the One God?Quote (Istari @ May 29 2011,13:45) Mike,
NO – I do not agree…
So then Jesus is NOT a mighty one?Quote (Istari @ May 29 2011,13:45) Your tenet is that 'God' or 'Mighty One' are equivalent to 'Almighty God'.
Wrong. I have NEVER said or even implied that. I know exactly what "God OF gods" and "God Almighty" and "God Most High" mean. Do YOU know what "God OF gods" means?
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