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To All,
We have recently lost a good Pastor who came to our church almost three years ago. In January he walked out on us and many people were confused about it. I have spoken with the pastor many times since he resigned and it has been brought to my attention that the politics of the leadership led him to suddenly resign. This coming Sunday the congregation will be voting on the leadership's recommendation regarding the Pastor's severance pay. Included in the recommendation is that we “forgive” a $15,000.00 loan. I have heard some grumblings by fellow parishoners about forgiving such a large amount of money especially because the Pastor walked out the way he did.
Now here is the thing. The $15,000.00 was not intended to be a loan but an unconditional and free gift. My wife and I are friends with the people who donated the money. They gave the money to the church treasurer because they wanted to be anonymous. They clearly stipulated that the money was to be a “gift” to the Pastor so he would not be in the hole financially from relocating interstate to accept our call to him. They did not feel the need to have it put in writing.
But the leadership by the direction of the treasurer gave it to the pastor as a conditional loan against the wishes of the donors and without their knowledge. The treasurer had the Pastor sign a contract which said that if he resigned before five years expired then he must pay the loan back. So he agreed because he expected to remain as Pastor for at least five years and it would mean that his relocating would not put him in the hole financially.
But after two and a half years the shady politics of the church leadership affected the Pastor's health to the point that he just up and resigned after his sermon one Sunday this last January. The church leadership required him to pay back the $15,000.00 according to the agreement. He has paid back half the amount.
This caused me to lose sleep because it's just not right. So I called the donors and suggested to them that they make it known to the Shepherding Committee in our denomination that they clearly stipulated that they were giving the money to the Pastor as an unconditional gift free cand clear. The donors followed my suggestion and made it known to the Shepherding Committee. The Shepherding Committee met with the Pastor and the church leadership to discuss this among many other things.
Now the leadership is recommending that we “forgive” the so called “loan.” Does a body of church leaders receive payments on a loan of such a large amount and then decide to just “forgive” it? It is obvious to me that the Denominational Heads chastised the church leadership in that meeting.
Anyway, some parshoners are grumbling about the idea of forgiving such a large “loan” amount. But they don't know the money was a free gift and that the treasurer directed the leadership to make it a loan. My wife and I are the only parishoners other than the donors who know that it was an unconditional gift to the new Pastor. The donors left the church after the Pastor resigned.
So here is my problem. I will be attending the meeting this coming Sunday when the congregation discusses the Pastor's severance pay. They may vote for all of it but the part about forgiving the “loan.”
If I see the discussion going in the direction it should and I feel confident that the congregation will vote to “forgive” what they have falsely been led to believe is a “loan,” then I will not need to say anything. But if I feel that they will vote against forgiving the “loan” I will have to expose what the leadership did.
POLL:
Should I expose the leadership only to secure that the “loan” be forgiven? Or should I expose them anyway no matter what?
No anti-trinitarian remarks PLEASE! This is not about that PLEASE! I want your sincere advise here because my exposing the leaders would mean that my wife and I would have to leave the church also.
KJ
KJ
your answer would be yes,the money is the congregation money right ?
the gift should have been voted on so all or majority would accepted,now there is a lie in the air,
and in truth why would a good pastor be collecting anything more ? did he not work for the tresor in Heaven ??
was he not paid for his performance as a pastor ??
this is what usually happen wen emotion are guiding the leaders ,truth is truth thats all.
this is my opinion,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2011,03:45) KJ your answer would be yes,the money is the congregation money right ?
the gift should have been voted on so all or majority would accepted,now there is a lie in the air,
and in truth why would a good pastor be collecting anything more ? did he not work for the tresor in Heaven ??
was he not paid for his performance as a pastor ??
this is what usually happen wen emotion are guiding the leaders ,truth is truth thats all.
this is my opinion,
Pierre
The money was a gift to the Pastor. Let's say that you saw an unemployed mother in your church who had need and so you gave the church treasurer $1,000.00 to give that mother as a free gift. You did not give the money to the church. You only gave it to the treasurer so you could remain anonymous. Then the treasurer says to the mother, “This is a loan and you must pay it back to the church when you get a job.”Is it right for the treasurer to accept your gift as a contribution to the church when you clearly said that the money was for the mother? Would it be right to make the mother pay the money back when you clearly stipulated it was a free gift to her?
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 02 2011,11:00) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2011,03:45) KJ your answer would be yes,the money is the congregation money right ?
the gift should have been voted on so all or majority would accepted,now there is a lie in the air,
and in truth why would a good pastor be collecting anything more ? did he not work for the tresor in Heaven ??
was he not paid for his performance as a pastor ??
this is what usually happen wen emotion are guiding the leaders ,truth is truth thats all.
this is my opinion,
Pierre
The money was a gift to the Pastor. Let's say that you saw an unemployed mother in your church who had need and so you gave the church treasurer $1,000.00 to give that mother as a free gift. You did not give the money to the church. You only gave it to the treasurer so you could remain anonymous. Then the treasurer says to the mother, “This is a loan and you must pay it back to the church when you get a job.”Is it right for the treasurer to accept your gift as a contribution to the church when you clearly said that the money was for the mother? Would it be right to make the mother pay the money back when you clearly stipulated it was a free gift to her?
KJ
KJif the anonymous giver give it to the treasurer ,why could not the treasurer give it without going though the church ,??
was it for tax purpose that the giver want it to go trough the church??
do you people do not have a board??
was this a board decision or the treasurer decision??
if it was one men decision so let him fix is problem and fast under your board supervision.Pierre
jack,
just tell the truth.
your blessings that you give your church, can be given to another.
don't complicate the matter.all the best
Pierre said:
Quote KJ if the anonymous giver give it to the treasurer ,why could not the treasurer give it without going though the church ,??
was it for tax purpose that the giver want it to go trough the church??
do you people do not have a board??
was this a board decision or the treasurer decision??
if it was one men decision so let him fix is problem and fast under your board supervision.Pierre
Pierre,I don't know if the donors gave it to the treasurer for tax purposes or not. I know only that they wanted to remain anonymous. It was a board decision but the treasurer may not have told them it the donation was to be given to the pastor as a free gift by the donors.
I don't see why it should matter because the donors specifically said that it was a GIFT for hte pastor for whatever reasons they went through the church.
Last year a donor not from our church gave our church $600,000.00 toward the construction of a youth building for our church. The donor said that the money must be used toward the youth building and ministries. The church accepted the money on the donor's terms. Therefore, it would be wrong to spend the money for anything else but a youth ministry building.
The donor who gave the $15,000.00 for the pastor gave it as a gift and not as a loan. It was an unconditional gift. In my opinion it was wrong to make it a loan to be paid back in certain conditions. It is good that the board has seen fit to “forgive” it. But if the congregation don't see fit then the pastor will have to pay the money back.The congregation does not know that it was an unconditional gift on the part of the donor and that the board under the direction of the treasurer made it a conditional loan.
It will be discussed first before there is a vote. If I see from the discussion that the congregation will vote to “forgive” the “loan” then I need not say anything. But if I sense that the congregation will not be benevolent because of the way the pastor walked out I feel I must say something. Some are upset because of the way the pastor left us and do not support him because of it. But how the pastor left us is not the issue. The issue is that the donors gave the money as an unconditional gift AT THE BEGINNING and he never received it as a gift. He was told that it was “loan” against the wishes of the donors.
I personally believe that the board was the first to commit an offense and committed offenses after that and that the pastor walked out the way he did because he could not take it anymore. I feel that he should not have to pay back money that was freely given to him by the donors.
Yet to tell the truth would make some people look bad and I don't want to do this either. I don't know why the board mentioned “forgiving” the money as part of a severance package. They should just give him the money with no mention of it at all like they should have in the beginning. Maybe they recorded it as a donation for the church and they can't just give it back for bookkeeping reasons.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 01 2011,13:57) They should just give him the money with no mention of it at all like they should have in the beginning. Maybe they recorded it as a donation for the church and they can't just give it back for bookkeeping reasons.
JackThe church was probably trying to make it appear as a loan so that the Pastor would not have to pay taxes on income.
If the donation is given to the Non Profit Ministry then if it is used for the church then it is tax free.
If the donator used it as a tax write off then it has to be acounted for to the IRS.
If the Church just gave it to the Pastor then he would have to pay income tax on it.
Something seems a little shakey and like maybe someone is trying to avoid paying taxes on the money.
I could be wrong but that is my opinion!
WJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 02 2011,12:57) Pierre said: Quote KJ if the anonymous giver give it to the treasurer ,why could not the treasurer give it without going though the church ,??
was it for tax purpose that the giver want it to go trough the church??
do you people do not have a board??
was this a board decision or the treasurer decision??
if it was one men decision so let him fix is problem and fast under your board supervision.Pierre
Pierre,I don't know if the donors gave it to the treasurer for tax purposes or not. I know only that they wanted to remain anonymous. It was a board decision but the treasurer may not have told them it the donation was to be given to the pastor as a free gift by the donors.
I don't see why it should matter because the donors specifically said that it was a GIFT for hte pastor for whatever reasons they went through the church.
Last year a donor not from our church gave our church $600,000.00 toward the construction of a youth building for our church. The donor said that the money must be used toward the youth building and ministries. The church accepted the money on the donor's terms. Therefore, it would be wrong to spend the money for anything else but a youth ministry building.
The donor who gave the $15,000.00 for the pastor gave it as a gift and not as a loan. It was an unconditional gift. In my opinion it was wrong to make it a loan to be paid back in certain conditions. It is good that the board has seen fit to “forgive” it. But if the congregation don't see fit then the pastor will have to pay the money back.The congregation does not know that it was an unconditional gift on the part of the donor and that the board under the direction of the treasurer made it a conditional loan.
It will be discussed first before there is a vote. If I see from the discussion that the congregation will vote to “forgive” the “loan” then I need not say anything. But if I sense that the congregation will not be benevolent because of the way the pastor walked out I feel I must say something. Some are upset because of the way the pastor left us and do not support him because of it. But how the pastor left us is not the issue. The issue is that the donors gave the money as an unconditional gift AT THE BEGINNING and he never received it as a gift. He was told that it was “loan” against the wishes of the donors.
I personally believe that the board was the first to commit an offense and committed offenses after that and that the pastor walked out the way he did because he could not take it anymore. I feel that he should not have to pay back money that was freely given to him by the donors.
Yet to tell the truth would make some people look bad and I don't want to do this either. I don't know why the board mentioned “forgiving” the money as part of a severance package. They should just give him the money with no mention of it at all like they should have in the beginning. Maybe they recorded it as a donation for the church and they can't just give it back for bookkeeping reasons.
KJ
KJit look fric-frac certainly is not Orthodox
Pierre
I Think God doesnt care about such things.
Its stupid, and totally centered around Man's goverment and politics.Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 02 2011,02:58) To All, We have recently lost a good Pastor who came to our church almost three years ago. In January he walked out on us and many people were confused about it. I have spoken with the pastor many times since he resigned and it has been brought to my attention that the politics of the leadership led him to suddenly resign. This coming Sunday the congregation will be voting on the leadership's recommendation regarding the Pastor's severance pay. Included in the recommendation is that we “forgive” a $15,000.00 loan. I have heard some grumblings by fellow parishoners about forgiving such a large amount of money especially because the Pastor walked out the way he did.
Now here is the thing. The $15,000.00 was not intended to be a loan but an unconditional and free gift. My wife and I are friends with the people who donated the money. They gave the money to the church treasurer because they wanted to be anonymous. They clearly stipulated that the money was to be a “gift” to the Pastor so he would not be in the hole financially from relocating interstate to accept our call to him. They did not feel the need to have it put in writing.
But the leadership by the direction of the treasurer gave it to the pastor as a conditional loan against the wishes of the donors and without their knowledge. The treasurer had the Pastor sign a contract which said that if he resigned before five years expired then he must pay the loan back. So he agreed because he expected to remain as Pastor for at least five years and it would mean that his relocating would not put him in the hole financially.
But after two and a half years the shady politics of the church leadership affected the Pastor's health to the point that he just up and resigned after his sermon one Sunday this last January. The church leadership required him to pay back the $15,000.00 according to the agreement. He has paid back half the amount.
This caused me to lose sleep because it's just not right. So I called the donors and suggested to them that they make it known to the Shepherding Committee in our denomination that they clearly stipulated that they were giving the money to the Pastor as an unconditional gift free cand clear. The donors followed my suggestion and made it known to the Shepherding Committee. The Shepherding Committee met with the Pastor and the church leadership to discuss this among many other things.
Now the leadership is recommending that we “forgive” the so called “loan.” Does a body of church leaders receive payments on a loan of such a large amount and then decide to just “forgive” it? It is obvious to me that the Denominational Heads chastised the church leadership in that meeting.
Anyway, some parshoners are grumbling about the idea of forgiving such a large “loan” amount. But they don't know the money was a free gift and that the treasurer directed the leadership to make it a loan. My wife and I are the only parishoners other than the donors who know that it was an unconditional gift to the new Pastor. The donors left the church after the Pastor resigned.
So here is my problem. I will be attending the meeting this coming Sunday when the congregation discusses the Pastor's severance pay. They may vote for all of it but the part about forgiving the “loan.”
If I see the discussion going in the direction it should and I feel confident that the congregation will vote to “forgive” what they have falsely been led to believe is a “loan,” then I will not need to say anything. But if I feel that they will vote against forgiving the “loan” I will have to expose what the leadership did.
POLL:
Should I expose the leadership only to secure that the “loan” be forgiven? Or should I expose them anyway no matter what?
No anti-trinitarian remarks PLEASE! This is not about that PLEASE! I want your sincere advise here because my exposing the leaders would mean that my wife and I would have to leave the church also.
KJ
Hi Jack:You should pray and ask God for wisdom to deal with this situation.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,13:54) I Think God doesnt care about such things.
Its stupid, and totally centered around Man's goverment and politics.
SFyou are wrong,God as his eyes focused on the righteous ,but you are not a righteous person ,so misconduct is normal for you,
everyone works with his conscience and will be judge by it ,
Pierre
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,09:54) I Think God doesnt care about such things.
Its stupid, and totally centered around Man's goverment and politics.
I agree with sf.Quote (942767 @ Mar. 02 2011,07:14) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 02 2011,02:58) To All, We have recently lost a good Pastor who came to our church almost three years ago. In January he walked out on us and many people were confused about it. I have spoken with the pastor many times since he resigned and it has been brought to my attention that the politics of the leadership led him to suddenly resign. This coming Sunday the congregation will be voting on the leadership's recommendation regarding the Pastor's severance pay. Included in the recommendation is that we “forgive” a $15,000.00 loan. I have heard some grumblings by fellow parishoners about forgiving such a large amount of money especially because the Pastor walked out the way he did.
Now here is the thing. The $15,000.00 was not intended to be a loan but an unconditional and free gift. My wife and I are friends with the people who donated the money. They gave the money to the church treasurer because they wanted to be anonymous. They clearly stipulated that the money was to be a “gift” to the Pastor so he would not be in the hole financially from relocating interstate to accept our call to him. They did not feel the need to have it put in writing.
But the leadership by the direction of the treasurer gave it to the pastor as a conditional loan against the wishes of the donors and without their knowledge. The treasurer had the Pastor sign a contract which said that if he resigned before five years expired then he must pay the loan back. So he agreed because he expected to remain as Pastor for at least five years and it would mean that his relocating would not put him in the hole financially.
But after two and a half years the shady politics of the church leadership affected the Pastor's health to the point that he just up and resigned after his sermon one Sunday this last January. The church leadership required him to pay back the $15,000.00 according to the agreement. He has paid back half the amount.
This caused me to lose sleep because it's just not right. So I called the donors and suggested to them that they make it known to the Shepherding Committee in our denomination that they clearly stipulated that they were giving the money to the Pastor as an unconditional gift free cand clear. The donors followed my suggestion and made it known to the Shepherding Committee. The Shepherding Committee met with the Pastor and the church leadership to discuss this among many other things.
Now the leadership is recommending that we “forgive” the so called “loan.” Does a body of church leaders receive payments on a loan of such a large amount and then decide to just “forgive” it? It is obvious to me that the Denominational Heads chastised the church leadership in that meeting.
Anyway, some parshoners are grumbling about the idea of forgiving such a large “loan” amount. But they don't know the money was a free gift and that the treasurer directed the leadership to make it a loan. My wife and I are the only parishoners other than the donors who know that it was an unconditional gift to the new Pastor. The donors left the church after the Pastor resigned.
So here is my problem. I will be attending the meeting this coming Sunday when the congregation discusses the Pastor's severance pay. They may vote for all of it but the part about forgiving the “loan.”
If I see the discussion going in the direction it should and I feel confident that the congregation will vote to “forgive” what they have falsely been led to believe is a “loan,” then I will not need to say anything. But if I feel that they will vote against forgiving the “loan” I will have to expose what the leadership did.
POLL:
Should I expose the leadership only to secure that the “loan” be forgiven? Or should I expose them anyway no matter what?
No anti-trinitarian remarks PLEASE! This is not about that PLEASE! I want your sincere advise here because my exposing the leaders would mean that my wife and I would have to leave the church also.
KJ
Hi Jack:You should pray and ask God for wisdom to deal with this situation.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Jack:Here is some scripture that might help you to decide what to do:
Quote 1 Timothy 5:17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 18For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2011,01:20) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,13:54) I Think God doesnt care about such things.
Its stupid, and totally centered around Man's goverment and politics.
SFyou are wrong,God as his eyes focused on the righteous ,but you are not a righteous person ,so misconduct is normal for you,
everyone works with his conscience and will be judge by it ,
Pierre
Im wrong based on what???
You have a big ego.15,000 dollars has nothing to do with Righteousness you heretic.
learn some english.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,06:54) I Think God doesnt care about such things.
Its stupid, and totally centered around Man's goverment and politics.
God doesn't care about righteousness?KJ
Hi Jack,
It would seem a compromise has already been reached.
The leadership said $15,000.oo was a loan (to be paid back) if He did not stay 5 years.
Have you ever heard of the term “Vesting”? He only stayed two and a half and paid back half of the money.The question I have is: does the money paid back go back to the donors?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,14:47) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2011,01:20) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 02 2011,13:54) I Think God doesnt care about such things.
Its stupid, and totally centered around Man's goverment and politics.
SFyou are wrong,God as his eyes focused on the righteous ,but you are not a righteous person ,so misconduct is normal for you,
everyone works with his conscience and will be judge by it ,
Pierre
Im wrong based on what???
You have a big ego.15,000 dollars has nothing to do with Righteousness you heretic.
learn some english.
SFI don't know if a answer to your comment is needed ,
you have shown your true colors,
wisdom is not welcome to the foolish ones.
Pierre
Hi Jack,
If the money, that was paid back, does NOT go back to the donors?
You should expose the charade of “FRAUD”, perpetuated
by the leadership of a FRAUDULENT CHURCH!Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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