Should a muslim be able to post in believers area?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 13 2009,17:55)

You misunderstand me.  I was stating that I assume you indicated in the forum head what this site considers to be a believer as people will go by their chosen definition otherwise.

If you can show me in scripture that a believer/disciple/saint/church member doesn't necessarily believe that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God, then I will of course comply.

Can you show me?

That is what these forums are about. If you can show proof, then you teach something that we don't know and we should then comply if it is so.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,17:39)

t8 I agree with that. I also was wondering since kejonn was banned from posting in the Believers section because He did not think Jesus was the Messiah. But our Muslim here does, is there a reason why? Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene.

Thanks for your post.

Are you saying that BD believes that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ/only way to God?

[kerwin]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2009,13:01)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 13 2009,17:55) You misunderstand me.  I was stating that I assume you indicated in the forum head what this site considers to be a believer as people will go by their chosen definition otherwise. If you can show me in scripture that a believer/disciple/saint/church member doesn't necessarily believe that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God, then I will of course comply. Can you show me? That is what these forums are about. If you can show proof, then you teach something that we don't know and we should then comply if it is so.

I am not arguing with you.  Sometimes, it is wises to be explicit if you wish others to understand.

We know that Peter finally declared his belief that Jesus was the Anointed One in Matthew 16:16-18 and with Thomas it took even more as he had to touch the wounds of the resurected Jesus.  It would appear that coming to that belief takes time for some even after they have set their foot on the path.  

It is stated "love always hopes" and Muslims do believe Jesus is a prophet of God.  The goal is to show them why he is King of everything in heaven and on earth.  The best way I know to accomplish that is through reason.

[Tim Kraft]

If we are looking for truth in the Bible then it should be a Bible believers forum. There's enough contradiction and opinion in that alone. There should be a separate site for those interested in the Koran. IMO TK

[georg]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2009,18:03)

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,17:39) t8  I agree with that.  I also was wondering since kejonn was banned from posting in the Believers section because He did not think Jesus was the Messiah.  But our Muslim here does, is there a reason why? Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene. Thanks for your post. Are you saying that BD believes that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ/only way to God?

t8  That I don't know.  I only know that He does not believe
that Jesus is the Messiah.   And because of that I don't think He believes that it is the way to salvation IMO
Peace and Love Irene

[bodhitharta]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,17:39)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2009,17:21) I should point out that no one is censored from posting in this board. From the beginning, this board has had the following rule: "No pushing doctrines that are not related to the topic. (Pushing them in an appropriate topic is OK.)" As an extension of this "Believers Place" was set up to allow topics of a scriptural and biblical nature to thrive rather than be dogged down by other stuff. Outside that area are other forums where all can post and interact. The other day I went to a discussion where a new member was asking a question, and a response came back from the Koran. Maybe I am mixing this up a bit, but I definitely saw text/s from the Koran being cited. I didn't think this was very consistent especially considering the name "Believers Place". Having the topics organised is what makes them more valuable and easier to find. If we open up everything to everything, then it sort of ends up in a sort of chaos or just a bunch of chat rooms. What is suppose to be accomplished is real progress on subjects and the reason for sticking to the topic and having the right people contributing rather than people steering it away toward their agendas. Agendas are OK, if you start the topic on that agenda. That is what I think. t8  I agree with that.  I also was wondering since kejonn was banned from posting in the Believers section because He did not think Jesus was the Messiah.  But our Muslim here does, is there a reason why? Peace and Love Irene

Because ALL MUSLIMS BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH,

How many times do I have to say that.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 13 2009,17:49)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 12 2009,23:33) This is Paul defending the Gospel as was given to him pertaining preaching to the heathens because he was no approved by Peter and the other disciples to preach what he was preaching and if Paul is right here your refusing or willfullness to not share the word of God with me or anyone else is PREACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL But what was the gospel preached and shared to all by Paul? Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you "the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you", unless ye have believed in vain. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures": 1 Cor 15:1-4 It has been shared with you many times that Jesus was crucified and died for our sins and rose from the dead and you claiming to be a Christian have denied these truths therefore denying the Gospel of Paul which is the Gospel of God! By your own testimony you are not a Christian but a Muslim based on these facts! So I ask you again, do you believe Jesus died on a cross for our sins, and was he buried, and did he rise from the dead? WJ

What scriptures was Paul speaing about did he have the Gospels in written form? Isn't it true he said he didn't learn about Jesus from the scriptures but from a direct revelation from Christ?

The Old Testament does not have a ressurection story does it? so what is he talking about there?

Also no one has to go against the scriptures because in the New Testament it is demonstrated that knowledge that was not known or understood before was made known, this didn't invalidate the previous scriptures it explained what was not known before and so when talking about the Quran I am explaining what was not known before there is a 600 year gap between the two writings and we know for a fact that God said that as we approached the culmination of the age that knowledge would be increased and we would know what we did not know before even in revelations it talks about a book that would be bitter to your stomach have you never wondered why?

If all the meat was given at the time of Jesus why is it there is no consistancy in Christian belief? So if someone gives you meat you vomit it back up because it makes your stomach bitter and it all stems from not wanting to purely worship God Almighty(Our Father)

We would not be discussing this at all if we clearly worshiped The One and Only True God (According to the scriptures) this argument essentially is about Worshiping the Son of God.

Jesus came to reconcile Man with God but still so many refuse to be reconciled but because I believe and the Holy Bible says reconciliation had been done so we are free to worship God directly many find it odd and difficult to understand as if before Jesus came God desired that you should Worship other than HIM but today you do.

Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
John 4:20-22

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:22-24

How true! Yet this is what you malign me for doing so you take the corner stone and make it a stumbling block, how sad.

Ephesians 2:19-21 (King James Version)

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Notice it says that Jesus is part of the building not "the building"

The Gospel that Jesus preached was The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven

Paul preached The Gospel of Jesus Christ those are two different Gospels

Who here does not acknowledge that?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2009,17:51)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 13 2009,17:36) I assume you defined what "Believer" is. A believer is defined not by me but in scripture. The word is sometimes translated as saint and disciple. You can read in scripture what they believed and they all believed that Jesus was the son of God and the Christ. Take the Pharisees for example. They believed in the existence of YHWH, but they didn't believe that Jesus was the Christ and the son of God. They are not called Believers, Saints, or Disciples, although some converted. The Pharisees believed that Jesus is not the son of God and the Koran echoes the same sentiment.

So was Mary a believer before the birth of Christ?

Are you saying that Jews are Atheists because they don't believe Jesus is The Christ?

And then are you saying that Muslims are Atheiists because they do believe that Jesus is The Christ but should not be called the literal Son of God?

although the scriptures say:

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1 John 5:1-3

All Muslims Believe that Jesus is the Christ.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,23:38)

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 13 2009,18:03) Quote (georg @ Nov. 13 2009,17:39) t8  I agree with that.  I also was wondering since kejonn was banned from posting in the Believers section because He did not think Jesus was the Messiah.  But our Muslim here does, is there a reason why? Peace and Love Irene Hi Irene. Thanks for your post. Are you saying that BD believes that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ/only way to God? t8  That I don't know.  I only know that He does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah.   And because of that I don't think He believes that it is the way to salvation IMO Peace and Love Irene

Wow!, I really can't believe this.

Seeing and yet they not perceive.

Jesus is The Messiah.

I have repeated that about 10 times in this thread alone and literally hundreds of times throughout my posts.

[Lightenup]

Hi Bo,
You are right, you have stated that you believe that Jesus is the Messiah. The Messiah that you believe in didn't die or shed His blood and that is against a central truth that Christians believe. Christians believe that we have been "washed in the blood" because He has died and shed His blood. Christians also don't believe that everyone is a child of God but you have stated that you believe this. Everyone is a creation of God, true, but not a child of God. So you have some basic disagreements with Christianity. There are similarities though but the differences are monumental to Christians. It seems that you don't realize that.

I hope this helps you see the struggle here,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 13 2009,12:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 13 2009,17:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 12 2009,23:33) This is Paul defending the Gospel as was given to him pertaining preaching to the heathens because he was no approved by Peter and the other disciples to preach what he was preaching and if Paul is right here your refusing or willfullness to not share the word of God with me or anyone else is PREACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL But what was the gospel preached and shared to all by Paul? Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you "the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you", unless ye have believed in vain. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures": 1 Cor 15:1-4 It has been shared with you many times that Jesus was crucified and died for our sins and rose from the dead and you claiming to be a Christian have denied these truths therefore denying the Gospel of Paul which is the Gospel of God! By your own testimony you are not a Christian but a Muslim based on these facts! So I ask you again, do you believe Jesus died on a cross for our sins, and was he buried, and did he rise from the dead? WJ What scriptures was Paul speaing about did he have the Gospels in written form? Isn't it true he said he didn't learn about Jesus from the scriptures but from a direct revelation from Christ? The Old Testament does not have a ressurection story does it? so what is he talking about there? Also no one has to go against the scriptures because in the New Testament it is demonstrated that knowledge that was not known or understood before was made known, this didn't invalidate the previous scriptures it explained what was not known before and so when talking about the Quran I am explaining what was not known before there is a 600 year gap between the two writings and we know for a fact that God said that as we approached the culmination of the age that knowledge would be increased and we would know what we did not know before even in revelations it talks about a book that would be bitter to your stomach have you never wondered why? If all the meat was given at the time of Jesus why is it there is no consistancy in Christian belief? So if someone gives you meat you vomit it back up because it makes your stomach bitter and it all stems from not wanting to purely worship God Almighty(Our Father) We would not be discussing this at all if we clearly worshiped The One and Only True God (According to the scriptures) this argument essentially is about Worshiping the Son of God. Jesus came to reconcile Man with God but still so many refuse to be reconciled but because I believe and the Holy Bible says reconciliation had been done so we are free to worship God directly many find it odd and difficult to understand as if before Jesus came God desired that you should Worship other than HIM but today you do. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. John 4:20-22 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:22-24 How true! Yet this is what you malign me for doing so you take the corner stone and make it a stumbling block, how sad. Ephesians 2:19-21 (King James Version) 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: Notice it says that Jesus is part of the building not "the building" The Gospel that Jesus preached was The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven Paul preached The Gospel of Jesus Christ those are two different Gospels Who here does not acknowledge that?

BD

Thanks for verifying what I said, you are not a Christian according to the Gospel of God which is also the Gospel of Paul which is also the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

You can be a Christian by accepting that Jesus is the son of God and that he was crucified for your sins and that he was buried and that he rose again from the dead!

The choice is yours. But to do that you would have to abandon the koran that teaches against the truth of the Bible!

WJ

[NickHassan]

HI,
BD attempts to present himself as a believer and says the right things when required but his aim is to sow evil seed, faith in another god and other teachings and to sow doubts among believers.

His contributions are helpful but if others who do not accept our God speak in the non believers section then I think that is his place too.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 14 2009,05:21)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 13 2009,12:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 13 2009,17:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 12 2009,23:33) This is Paul defending the Gospel as was given to him pertaining preaching to the heathens because he was no approved by Peter and the other disciples to preach what he was preaching and if Paul is right here your refusing or willfullness to not share the word of God with me or anyone else is PREACHING ANOTHER GOSPEL But what was the gospel preached and shared to all by Paul? Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you "the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you", unless ye have believed in vain. "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures": 1 Cor 15:1-4 It has been shared with you many times that Jesus was crucified and died for our sins and rose from the dead and you claiming to be a Christian have denied these truths therefore denying the Gospel of Paul which is the Gospel of God! By your own testimony you are not a Christian but a Muslim based on these facts! So I ask you again, do you believe Jesus died on a cross for our sins, and was he buried, and did he rise from the dead? WJ What scriptures was Paul speaing about did he have the Gospels in written form? Isn't it true he said he didn't learn about Jesus from the scriptures but from a direct revelation from Christ? The Old Testament does not have a ressurection story does it? so what is he talking about there? Also no one has to go against the scriptures because in the New Testament it is demonstrated that knowledge that was not known or understood before was made known, this didn't invalidate the previous scriptures it explained what was not known before and so when talking about the Quran I am explaining what was not known before there is a 600 year gap between the two writings and we know for a fact that God said that as we approached the culmination of the age that knowledge would be increased and we would know what we did not know before even in revelations it talks about a book that would be bitter to your stomach have you never wondered why? If all the meat was given at the time of Jesus why is it there is no consistancy in Christian belief? So if someone gives you meat you vomit it back up because it makes your stomach bitter and it all stems from not wanting to purely worship God Almighty(Our Father) We would not be discussing this at all if we clearly worshiped The One and Only True God (According to the scriptures) this argument essentially is about Worshiping the Son of God. Jesus came to reconcile Man with God but still so many refuse to be reconciled but because I believe and the Holy Bible says reconciliation had been done so we are free to worship God directly many find it odd and difficult to understand as if before Jesus came God desired that you should Worship other than HIM but today you do. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. John 4:20-22 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:22-24 How true! Yet this is what you malign me for doing so you take the corner stone and make it a stumbling block, how sad. Ephesians 2:19-21 (King James Version) 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: Notice it says that Jesus is part of the building not "the building" The Gospel that Jesus preached was The Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven Paul preached The Gospel of Jesus Christ those are two different Gospels Who here does not acknowledge that? BD Thanks for verifying what I said, you are not a Christian according to the Gospel of God which is also the Gospel of Paul which is also the Gospel of Jesus Christ! You can be a Christian by accepting that Jesus is the son of God and that he was crucified for your sins and that he was buried and that he rose again from the dead! The choice is yours. But to do that you would have to abandon the koran that teaches against the truth of the Bible! WJ

You really do misunderstand I was raised a Christian and Christ was crucified according to the scriptures but it was revealed in the Quran that it was believed that he was crucified but in fact God spared him from the cross this is wonderful news but you prefer him being killed but you were not there and God knows best what occured.

You know according to the scriptures that Jesus was raised up to heaven Bone and flesh and declared he was not a ghost, ate honeycomb and fish.

You know that Jesus had the power to forgive sins without having to die.

You know that Jesus said he had finished the work that God gave him to do before he was captured

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:3-5

Was Jesus wrong wen he said this?

You don't believe Jesus was saved from the cross by God just like The Jews didn't believe he was their Saviour but the fact is God reveals things the way he chooses and those who have a pure heart will see the kingdom of God.

The Jews deny Christ according to the scriptures just as you deny Islam according to the scriptures the Jews were wrong and now so are you if you reject anyone who believes in Jesus as the Christ according to the scriptures.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,05:30)

HI, BD attempts to present himself as a believer and says the right things when required but his aim is to sow evil seed, faith in another god and other teachings and to sow doubts among believers. His contributions are helpful but if others who do not accept our God speak in the non believers section then I think that is his place too.

What evil have I said?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
You offer a new god and his false teachings.

[seekingtruth]

Quote

You really do misunderstand I was raised a Christian and Christ was crucified according to the scriptures but it was revealed in the Quran that it was believed that he was crucified but in fact God spared him from the cross this is wonderful news but you prefer him being killed but you were not there and God knows best what occured.

You are stating that the quran is truth, while "christian" scriptures are false. Actually by denying the death of Jesus, you deny the resurrection, and without that we are still lost in our sins, unable to pay except with our death and then without hope of our own resurrection. It is the resurrection that makes the "christian" scriptures stand apart and is our "proof" that we are not just following another "way to god" but are following THE WAY to God. If only part of the scriptures can be trusted then none of the scripture can be trusted.

My opinion – Wm

[bodhitharta]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 14 2009,08:28)

Quote You really do misunderstand I was raised a Christian and Christ was crucified according to the scriptures but it was revealed in the Quran that it was believed that he was crucified but in fact God spared him from the cross this is wonderful news but you prefer him being killed but you were not there and God knows best what occured. You are stating that the quran is truth, while "christian" scriptures are false. Actually by denying the death of Jesus, you deny the resurrection, and without that we are still lost in our sins, unable to pay except with our death and then without hope of our own resurrection. It is the resurrection that makes the "christian" scriptures stand apart and is our "proof" that we are not just following another "way to god" but are following THE WAY to God. If only part of the scriptures can be trusted then none of the scripture can be trusted. My opinion – Wm

You think Jesus takes away the sins of the world because of death but the fact is it is because of his life.
John said:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:28-30

Does he really do this by dying?

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Acts 26:19-21

Now here is a very big question one that has never been asked on this forum:

Matthew 21:31-33 (King James Version)

31Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Why is Jesus saying that those who believed in John could enter the Kingdom of God?

Why is Jesus saying the baptism of repentence had saving power?

Mark 1:3-5 (King James Version)

3The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

5And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Why does Jesus say not that he came to die but:

I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 5:31-33

Is there even a scripture that says Jesus came to die?

Why does Jesus say:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luke 24:46-48

Notice what he is telling them to preach, did Jesus say go and preach that I died for world and was resurrected?

Matthew 4:(King James Version)

17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Why wasn't Jesus preaching "I die for the sins of man"?

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:12-14

Have you really learned what that means "I will have Mercy and not Sacrifice"

Yet you believe that God that God had Sacrifice and not Mercy on His own anointed.

Doesn't God hate the shedding of innocent blood?

Psalm 106:37-39 (King James Version)

37Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,

38And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.

39Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

Now many keep saying that Jesus paid the price or bought us but from who? Was he sacrificed to satisfy the devil?

Proverbs 6:16-18 (King James Version)

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

So many here believe that God did something He Himself said he hates?

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
So why do the muslims love shedding human blood?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 14 2009,12:39)

Hi BD, So why do the muslims love shedding human blood?

Christians and other people who claim other religions don't shed blood, nick?

US bureau of prisons says christians are 50 times more likely to go to jail than atheists, and they didnt convert in jail, they were christians already.

Christians make up about 80% of the American population AND prison population.

You don't believe that Christians kill people, even innocent people?

All of Christianity hinges on the the shedding of innocent blood and loves the fact that INNOCENT blood was shed. But Suprise God does not like the shedding of innocent blood and spared Jesus Christ just like he said he would:

And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Malachi 3:16-18

(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
Deuteronomy 4:30-32

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Deuteronomy 31:5-7

And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
Psalm 9:9-11

And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
Isaiah 42:15-17

[NickHassan]

Hi BD,
You told us that 20% of the world is muslim but you and I know most are either nominal believers or mad headed radicals so the number of true muslims is very small?
Why do they not accept the Lordship of Jesus and his teachings rather than bothering with rigid empty religion and useless politics?

[Author]

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