Should a muslim be able to post in believers area?

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2009,02:07)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2009,16:11)

Because you seem to believe that someone being called son is always literal.

Where have I said that.

I have said that Jesus is the son of God and that he had glory with the Father before the world began.

It is a bit of a mystery as it written that we will be like him in the resurrection.

But we know that he had glory with the Father before the world began and that he claimed himself, "before Abraham, I am". He actually existed in the form of God and he came to earth and emptied himself and took on flesh and became like us.

He humbled himself to death and God raised him from the dead. His death satisfied the requirement of the law that the soul that sins will die. He died for us, so that we may live.

God loved us that much that he gave his ONLY begotten son for us, so that whoever shall believe upon him can have eternal life.

How is it a mystery?

We will have uncorruption.

We will have immortality.

We will have knowledge like one could never imagine.

No hurt, no pain, no sickness, no sin, nothing but bliss.

I will be able to do things that I could never do in this world, I can be a musician, a carpenter, a painter, I can surf the galaxies, I can have lunch on a planet a billion light years away with just athought.

November 27, 2009 at 9:02 pm#161292

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2009,20:58)

Nice answer BD.

I thought Muslims were generally speaking were against the Jew?
They for example do not believe that the Jew should be in Israel.
Or is that just the fundamentalist?

Technically no Muslim should be against any group of people or any person unless that person or group of people are being oppressive and unjust.

Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #62
62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

I wouldn't call those who hate and create strife and mischief fundamentalist because the fundamentals of all religion is Submission to God and excelling in goodness. The conflict in palestine is primarily based upon the palestinians having their land taken by force but it will be God who decides the outcome because there has been corruption on both sides.

Some of these events in the world are so complex that it is best to let God deal with it because we truly sometimes don't know exactly what is going on. You think that a certain group is clearly wrong and then years later you find out that one group was pitted against another on purpose.

For instance there would be no Taliban without the U.S. helping the freedom fighters in Afghanistan against the Russians. Afghanistan was so corrupt with drug lords and gangs after their victory that the Taliban started out as a blessing to the people, well after they got absolute power
they became corrupted and excessive in the land just as man does all the time.

"And did not Allah Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds."
Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #251

So we have complex situations with layers of good and bad unfolding we point fingers at the obvious but like a magician sometimes we are seeing the distraction not the actual trick.

That's why it is so important that Believers of all sorts(those with Love for God and his fellow man must communicate and assist those who are in need of justice and welfare for we were all made to be vicegerants on this earth)

Vice*ge"rent (?), a. [Vice, a. + gerent: cf. F. vicegérant.]

Having or exercising delegated power; acting by substitution, or in the place of another. Milton.

November 27, 2009 at 9:10 pm#161293

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 27 2009,21:01)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2009,19:24)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2009,16:48)

Bo,
Hi… think that you said once that all people are children of God. So what is the need for God to adopt us if we are already His children?

Just wondering,
Kathi

Notice when the word adoption is used it is used towards the gentiles. You will never see that in reference to a Jew because they believed all of Israel is the Son of God but keep in mind Adam was called the Son of God and if he was the Child of God ALL MANKIND is the CHILD of God.

You see words like "son" "adoption" "Father"…etc and view them as literal meanings but these are relative meanings.

God doesn't need to adopt what He already owns

Yes we are children of God (the offspring of God). But we are separated from God by our fallen nature and some even take on the nature of the Devil himself.

God offers us to partake of divine nature.

Yet not to partake in it but to return to it thus the meaning of repent.

Just like the prodigal son who went and lost his way squandering what was given to him, his return was a joy to his Father and their was no adoption although the son was ready to be the lowliest of servants at the time but the Father was overjoyed with the return of this son of his.

So, no adoption but it was said so to the gentiles because of the culture

November 27, 2009 at 9:37 pm#161294

Participant

Hi BD,
So perceived injustice is an excuse for any form of violence?

November 28, 2009 at 3:46 am#161312

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2009,08:37)

Hi BD,
So perceived injustice is an excuse for any form of violence?

Once again you ask the question not realizing you are guilty of the question. You perceive that my belief is an injustice to you or your beliefs and you act violent with your accusations and brutal critisizims.

Your evasion of honesty and love is what is real.

November 28, 2009 at 4:02 am#161317

Participant

Hi BD,
So perceived injustice can justify any response?

November 28, 2009 at 4:05 am#161321

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2009,15:02)

Hi BD,
So perceived injustice can justify any response?

You seem to believe so.

November 28, 2009 at 5:55 am#161328

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 27 2009,19:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2009,08:37)

Hi BD,
So perceived injustice is an excuse for any form of violence?

Your evasion of honesty and love is what is real.

Good point.

:cool:

November 28, 2009 at 5:57 am#161329

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 27 2009,20:02)

Hi BD,
So perceived injustice can justify any response?

No, but sadly it usually does.

:cool:

November 28, 2009 at 7:39 am#161333

Participant

Hi CON,
Not is the way of Jesus.
The trivialities of life are sorted by God so turning the other cheek is the way.

November 28, 2009 at 6:43 pm#161371

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 28 2009,18:39)

Hi CON,
Not is the way of Jesus.
The trivialities of life are sorted by God so turning the other cheek is the way.

Nick,

Turning the other cheek is not nonviolent it is very violent. Do you not understanding that the person doing the hitting will be punished and still you seem to ignore the fact that Jesus is really talking about not fighting against an obviously stroger foe if it were not true he would have never said this:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Luke 19:26-28

No turning the other cheek there, therefore Jesus is teaching a strategy but when he rules he will do so with an Iron rod.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Revelation 12:4-6

November 29, 2009 at 5:20 am#161401

Participant

Hi BD,
So you think personal retribution is a better way?
Come back to the one who is meek and humble of heart.

November 29, 2009 at 6:22 am#161407

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 29 2009,16:20)

Hi BD,
So you think personal retribution is a better way?
Come back to the one who is meek and humble of heart.

Is Hell retribution?

November 29, 2009 at 6:26 am#161408

Participant

Hi BD,
What is hell?

November 29, 2009 at 6:44 am#161411

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 29 2009,17:26)

Hi BD,
What is hell?

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:29-31

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:43-45

Is hell retribution?

November 29, 2009 at 7:32 am#161412

Participant

Hi BD,
Profit is unto God.
Even trees in His garden are uprooted after a few years being fertilised if no fruit appears.

November 29, 2009 at 2:52 pm#161423

http://www.harvesthands.org/hell.htm

Participant

Hell

The Wicked Will be Completely Destroyed

The wages of sin is death, not eternal burning. (Ro 6:23, Jas 1:15, 1Jn 5:11,12)

The wicked are destroyed. (Ps 37:9,10,20,38, Ps 68:2, Ps 104:35, Ps 145:20, Da 7:25,26, Mt 7:13, Mt 10:28, Jn 3:16, Php 3:18,19, 2Th 1:8-10, 2Pe 3:7)

Perish – "To die. … To be destroyed; to come to nothing." (Webster's Dictionary 1828)

Destroy – "To demolish; to pull down; to separate the parts of an edifice, the union of which is necessary to constitute the thing. … To ruin; to annihilate a thing by demolishing or by burning; as, to destroy a city. …to bring to naught; … In general, to put and end to;" (Webster's Dictionary 1828)

The destruction includes the body. (Mt 5:30)

Eternal fire does not burn eternally, its effect (destruction) is eternal. (Jude 1:7)

Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning today. (Lk 17:29, 2Pe 2:6)

A similar, relative use of the word "eternal" (Heb 6:2)

Some relative uses of the word "forever" (Ex 21:5,6, 1Sa 1:22,28, Jnh 2:5,6 compare Jnh 1:17)

The wicked are destroyed by fire (second death) (Ps 21:9, Isa 47:14, Da 7:11, Zep 1:18, Mal 4:1-3, Mt 13:40-42, Mt 25:41, Rev 20:9,14,15, Rev 21:8)

Devour – "To destroy; to consume with rapidity and violence." (Webster's Dictionary 1828)

Satan and his angels are destroyed by fire (Eze 28:17-19, Rev 20:10)

The Complete Destruction of the Wicked Occurs on the Earth

The wicked are destroyed on the earth. (Dt 32:22, Eze 28:17-19, Mal 4:1-3, Rev 20:7-9)

The Earth is destroyed by fire, then recreated. (Isa 65:17, Zep 3:8, 2Pe 3:10-13, Rev 21:1,5)

Note that the greatest suffering of the wicked will be their own mental anguish. (Zep 1:14, Lk 13:24-28, Rev 6:15-17)

'Elohim Takes No Pleasure in the Death of the Wicked

'Elohim takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. (Eze 18:23,32, Eze 33:11)

For 'Elohim, this destructive act is a "strange work". (Isa 28:21,22, 1Jn 4:8,16)

Consumption – "destruction by burning" (Webster's Dictionary 1828)

A Popular Deception

Many people believe that a wicked person goes to hell immediately at death.

This deception contradicts the Biblical teachings on the state of the dead.

Many people believe that the wicked will be tormented in hell fire forever.

This deception contradicts the Biblical teachings on the complete destruction of the wicked.

This deception contradicts a loving and merciful 'Elohim.

This deception causes many people to become alienated from 'Elohim.

This deception causes many people to "follow" 'Elohim only out of fear.

What does it mean when it says "their worm will not die?" (Isa 66:24, Mk 9:47,48)

It is a destruction that cannot be stopped until it has completely consumed. (Isa 51:8, Ac 12:23)

What is "everlasting fire" for the wicked? (Mt 25:41)

Everlasting fire does not burn eternally, its effect (destruction) is eternal. (2Th 1:9, Jude 1:7)

Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning today. (2Pe 2:6)

What is "everlasting punishment" for the wicked? (Mt 25:46)

Note that the word is "punishment", not "punishing."

The punishment for the wicked is death. (Ro 6:23, Rev 21:8)

What is "unquenchable fire" for the wicked? (Mt 3:12, Lk 3:17)

It is fire that cannot be put out until it has completely consumed. (compare Jer 17:27 and 2Ch 36:19,21)

Does the story of the rich man and Lazarus reveal an eternally burning hell? (Lk 16:19-31) (No)

It is a prophetic parable aimed at the Pharisees and based upon popular Jewish beliefs.

Yeshua HaMoshiach choice of the name "Lazarus" was prophetic of this yet future event.

After Lazarus was actually raised from the dead, the Pharisees continued to oppose Jesus. (compare Lk 16:31)

What is torment "day and night for ever and ever" for the wicked? (Rev 14:11, Rev 20:10)

It is an expression that means their destruction (the effect) will last for ever. (Ps 92:7, Isa 34:8-11)

Isa 34:8-15 that animals will rest in peace in a place that is described as blazing night and day with smoke rising forever.

Are the wicked alive outside the holy city? (Rev 22:14,15) (No)

The point is that they will not be in the city. They will be outside, but eternally dead.

:cool:

November 29, 2009 at 5:29 pm#161428

seekingtruth

Participant

Ron,
I agree for the most part, this is from my journal on a study I did on the word Aion (eternal):
Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever.

However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed” Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity

But what about the wicked who seem to prosper until death, where is the justice of God. Scriptures support that God will “balance the books” at resurrection. I believe it is God’s way to recompense, it would be unfair for the wicked to have prospered without ever having paid the price I believe it is God’s way to give justice to those who have suffered by exacting a proportional payment from the wicked

As to an argument that if punishment is not eternal then why would life be eternal? This would be valid if aion was the only word that could denote endless duration however scriptures also use other words to describe unending life; such as aphtharsia (incorruptible), athanasian (hath immortality), akataluton (imperishable), aphtharto (immortal)

This single misinterpretation has done more to dissuade many by impugning the character of God as one who demands unending torment not only the wicked, but the grandma who never heard of Jesus, this is inconsistent with the character of God.

At the very least the fact that there remains debate on the certainty of the proper translation gives reason to at least question it. And while the traditional interpretation is possible, the alternative seems more in line with the character of God

November 29, 2009 at 6:58 pm#161433

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 29 2009,09:29)

In judgment the wicked are resurrected, they will see what it is that they have truly lost, they will suffer 'elohims righteous fire which will literally destroy them (the second death) and this is Aion.

My opinion.

November 29, 2009 at 7:12 pm#161434