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TO ALL:
We have all seen Nick like a LP broken record replay over and over the words “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Corinthians 5:19). Nick INFERS from this statement that Christ is not God though the statement even as Nick reads it says no such thing.
Anyway, I discovered today that the correct reading should be this:
“God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ” (George Smeaton).
In other words, Paul was not saying that God was working in Christ reducing Christ to a passive role in reconciliation. Paul was saying that God was reconciling the world to Himself by means of and on the grounds of the atoning work of Christ. So it is not apart from Christ that God reconciles the world to Himself. Rather it is in Christ, that is, on the basis of His atoning work that God reconciles men to Himself.
In verse 17 Paul said that if any man be in Christ he is a new creation. He goes on in verse 18 to say that that God reconciles us through Christ. Finally in verse 19 he says, God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, that is, on the grounds of His substitutionary death.
Maybe Nick might now stop playing his broken record.
Kangaroo Jack
KJ,
God was in Christ.
The alternative is that God wasn't in Christ.
And it doesn't say that God is Christ.The first line is right, the second one is antichrist, and the third is not written.
T8,
KJ has made a lexical argument in his post. You replied with a theological one. I think it would be more productive if you addressed the grammar in the text.Jesus said, not my will but your will. An example of Christ submitting to God thereby letting God work through him.
For us, there is one God, the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.
It was God who made Jesus both Lord and Christ.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 17 2010,06:57) In other words, Paul was not saying that God was working in Christ reducing Christ to a passive role in reconciliation. Paul was saying that God was reconciling the world to Himself by means of and on the grounds of the atoning work of Christ. So it is not apart from Christ that God reconciles the world to Himself. Rather it is in Christ, that is, on the basis of His atoning work that God reconciles men to Himself.
This looks correct on the outset.But you have to ask yourself who God is and who Christ is.
For us, there is one God the Father, and Jesus is the Christ.
Do you agree?
I ask this because I assume that you are trying to justify the Trinity Doctrine. Am I correct about your motive?
Hi:
God was in Christ:
Quote 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi KJ,
God was not in Himself.
God was doing the works through Jesus.. as Jesus told us.But he finds few unstopped ears here.
Quote (t8 @ June 18 2010,09:35) KJ,
God was in Christ.
The alternative is that God wasn't in Christ.
And it doesn't say that God is Christ.The first line is right, the second one is antichrist, and the third is not written.
t8,Neither does it say that Christ is not God. The distinction between God and Christ is not a cardinal one.
Paul was not teaching that God was in Christ in this statement. He was saying that Christ is the sphere inwhich men are reconciled to God.
vs. 17: “If any man be IN Christ he is a new creation. Meaning: A man is not a new creation out of union with Christ
vs. 18: “God reconciled us THROUGH Christ.” Meaning: A man is not reconciled to God apart from Christ but through Him.
vs. 19: “God was reconciling the world unto Himself IN Christ.” Meaning: God did not operate outside of Christ as the basis and grounds of reconciliation
The lexical and syntatical require us to read it as “God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ. Don't forget that the Father abandoned Jesus while He was bearing our sins. Jesus did it ALL ALONE on the cross. Check mate!
t8:
Quote The first line is right, the second one is antichrist, and the third is not written
Wow! I can't believe you said that salvation through Christ is an antichrist doctrine. Again I say wow!KJ
Quote (942767 @ June 18 2010,12:51) Hi: God was in Christ:
Quote 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Love in Christ,
Marty
God was not in Christ when He hung on the cross was He? The Father abandoned Christ. So on the cross Christ bore our sins ALL ALONE!KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 19 2010,04:34) Wow! I can't believe you said that salvation through Christ is an antichrist doctrine. Again I say wow!
I can. It's a race to the bottom when it comes to the Arian assessment of Yeshua. That's the nature of their theology.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 19 2010,07:23) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 19 2010,04:34) Wow! I can't believe you said that salvation through Christ is an antichrist doctrine. Again I say wow!
I can. It's a race to the bottom when it comes to the Arian assessment of Yeshua. That's the nature of their theology.
Yeah and Mikeboll is at the bottom with his view that Jesus is a god in the “same sense” as satan. I am getting concerned about t8 now.Jack
What is the answer guys. All become Trinitarians and live happily ever after. And then we can all say to God sorry for being wrong, but we were all wrong. Is that it?
Sorry but some people love the the truth more than their own egos. Inflated egos get in the way of truth.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 19 2010,04:39) Quote (942767 @ June 18 2010,12:51) Hi: God was in Christ:
Quote 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Love in Christ,
Marty
God was not in Christ when He hung on the cross was He? The Father abandoned Christ. So on the cross Christ bore our sins ALL ALONE!KJ
yes, you are right there…. Jesus said then :”My God My God why have You abonded Me.” Then He gave up His Spirit and died for us….. At that time God the Father could not look at His Son, because Jesus had taken upon Himself all the sin's of the world and died for our sin's….but what does that prove??? Just because God had to look away….. it proves nothing…..only that God cannot look on sin…. all other times God the Father was in Christ…. 2 Corinth. 19….. IreneQuote (Is 1:18 @ June 19 2010,07:23) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 19 2010,04:34) Wow! I can't believe you said that salvation through Christ is an antichrist doctrine. Again I say wow!
I can. It's a race to the bottom when it comes to the Arian assessment of Yeshua. That's the nature of their theology.
Is 8yes you can,the gospel and the resurrection is folly to the unsaved.
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 19 2010,04:39) Quote (942767 @ June 18 2010,12:51) Hi: God was in Christ:
Quote 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Love in Christ,
Marty
God was not in Christ when He hung on the cross was He? The Father abandoned Christ. So on the cross Christ bore our sins ALL ALONE!KJ
True. Jesus obeyed God with out sin even unto death on the cross. He was not obeying his own thoughts but he was obeying God's Word.Quote 1 Corinthians 15:21 (King James Version) 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi 94,
He is a son of God.
He is led by the Spirit of God.
The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.[Rom8]Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 19 2010,11:33) Hi 94,
He is a son of God.
He is led by the Spirit of God.
The Sons of God are led by the Spirit of God.[Rom8]
True.Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,10:20) What is the answer guys. All become Trinitarians and live happily ever after. And then we can all say to God sorry for being wrong, but we were all wrong. Is that it? Sorry but some people love the the truth more than their own egos. Inflated egos get in the way of truth.
The problem what you consider truth doesn't hold up to scrutiny, therefore it isn't really truth but your indefensible opinions.Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,17:35) KJ,
God was in Christ.
The alternative is that God wasn't in Christ.
And it doesn't say that God is Christ.The first line is right, the second one is antichrist, and the third is not written.
t8Jesus is also in the Father, so your point is?
Here I will spell out your strawman argument for you…
Is the Father “not God” because Jesus is in him?
WJ
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