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I think Stu's point is that many of our modern discoveries about hygiene should have already been discovered by the Jews if God truly spoke to them.
Hi David
Quote Actually Stu, the bible mentions in many places that the israelites were to wash themselves after becoming “unclean” in running water to purify themselves.
Being unclean covered alot of areas including contact with blood, semen, the sick and dead bodies.
I realize that you probably did not realize that this was in the bible.
Leviticus 15:13
13″And when the one with a discharge is cleansed of his discharge, then(A) he shall count for himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes. And he shall bathe his body in fresh water and shall be clean.
That is only one example.
The examples in this chapter do not lead you to a principle of the germ theory, or any ‘new’ science of any form. It would be pretty easy to have realised that suppurating wounds had the potential to cause further disease in others, but if you are following the line that we had early divine-inspired science going on, then it rather shoots itself to pieces by claiming that semen and menstrual blood have the same capacity for causing disease, and that turtle doves or pigeons and sacrifices (including a sin sacrifice to atone for having a bacterial infection!) will be suitable treatments.
Quote This article covers the multitude of other medical advice verses in the bible:
http://www.newhope.bc.ca/98-01-11.htm
So here we have the “Not heeding the voice of god” theory of infectious disease:Exodus 15:26, “If you diligently heed the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the Lord who heals you.”
Here the author displays atsounding ignorance of the developing immune system and the advantages to be had for ingesting some bacteria:
Another dangerous medical practice was the cure for a crying baby. Fly dung from the wall; is made into a drink and fed to the infant for four days. They promised the crying would cease quickly. No doubt the deadly drink killed the helpless baby.
Children eat dirt that contains many different pathogens and it would seem the ones that don’t are worse off. Perhaps the Egyptians had better wisdom than the Jews after all.Where did Moses obtain his advanced medical knowledge if God did not tell him? The ancient cultures did not understand germs, sanitation and other medical advances taught in the Bible thirty-five centuries ago.
Obviously he learned the practical stuff from the Egyptians. The bible does not record a germ theory.Until this century, Doctors believed that the presence and transmission of disease was governed by random chance or luck.
Rubbish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Jenner
Jenner had some idea of infectious agents 200 years ago. Wasn’t the wrath of god thought to be the cause of disease throughout the dark ages and medieval times? Still is in the lunatic States of the US.There follows stuff about not eating rotting meat (divine-inspired genius, no one could have figured that out without god!), and nonsense about the dangers of human remains to the living. If someone died from the plague you would certainly want to avoid being near the cadaver but if it was cancer or heart disease or just about any other cause then you are in no danger at all. Not even an AIDS-related death puts you in any serious danger of contracting HIV from the corpse.
Conclusion: For years people called the instructions given in Leviticus useless, stupid ceremonies. Today we know that God always has a good reason for what He commands us to do. Just because we don't understand it or because it is at odds with a popular scientific theory is no reason to reject what God says. In time God's word is always vindicated.
Yep, those turtle doves, pigeons and burnt offerings really made for a comprehensive divine-inspired public health strategy.Stuart
Stu…
Just because you don't belive something does not mean that it is not true.
We should not “Condem” people for their beliefs. Although, I will agree that alot people that claim to be Christians do this.
Even I do it …we all do it. We are not a perfect being…we just are not.
Nonetheless, we should try to be. If the world followed the stuff in the new testament it would be a much better place. Half the laws we would not need, and there would be alot less stress. Still yet …we have to “Refuse” what someone tells us…because none of us want to be “Told” anything from anyone or anything…at all.
We are always right and everyone is always wrong. Which always makes us inevitably wrong.
Our “Pride” and “Desire” for power has and will continue to absoloutly corrupt us until something is done about it.
I suppose that you think we shall eventually gain enough knowledge, and power to correct or stupidness? I think not.
“An object in motion…tends to stay in motion.” This same law applies to a course of actions set in motion my humans as well.We need help…Where do you think we are going to get it?
If we could “Fix” ourself…we would have already done it by now…no…we can't…we just keep getting worse…wars…will continue on in their set path getting progressively worse until we just kill ourselves.Unless…there is another varible introduced…”A Divine Intervention”
Say what you will…and keep your beliefs if you wish …thats super. However, you should not be trying to take away what hope people have …that is not the answer. According to your logic and beliefs everything is Falliable unless “Cold-Hard” facts can prove otherwise…in which event …in your universe …nothing is for certian.
Which I agree with to a certain extent.Thats where Faith comes in.
Scientists have Faith as well they just don't call it Faith…They call it hypothesis.
Quote I think Stu's point is that many of our modern discoveries about hygiene should have already been discovered by the Jews if God truly spoke to them. Yes, while the jews were burying their feces, the egyptians were rubbing it on their faces and using it as medicine.
Quote (david @ April 02 2008,17:03) Quote I think Stu's point is that many of our modern discoveries about hygiene should have already been discovered by the Jews if God truly spoke to them. Yes, while the jews were burying their feces, the egyptians were rubbing it on their faces and using it as medicine.
Huh? An Egyptian vulture puts feces on its face. Beyond that, ancient Egypt was very advanced in medicine. Read http://www.touregypt.net/historicalessays/doctors.htmHi Samuel
Quote Just because you don't belive something does not mean that it is not true.
I am so glad to see you write that! Couldn’t agree more.Quote We should not “Condem” people for their beliefs. Although, I will agree that alot people that claim to be Christians do this.
Again, absolutely. Condemn the ideas people hold if the ideas are ridiculous, but not the people themselves. The problem with islam and christianity is that people equate themselves with the ideas they hold. Attack the idea and you ARE attacking the person. This is tragically childish.Quote Nonetheless, we should try to be. If the world followed the stuff in the new testament it would be a much better place.
Jesus said it is ‘all good to teach’. Do you want stoning for homosexuals adulterers and non-believers? Do you want people with bacterial infections to have to make a sin offering to god?Quote Half the laws we would not need, and there would be alot less stress. Still yet …we have to “Refuse” what someone tells us…because none of us want to be “Told” anything from anyone or anything…at all.
No it is because if you blindly do as you are told then you can end up living in a brutal dictatorship. Or a theocracy. Same thing.Quote We are always right and everyone is always wrong. Which always makes us inevitably wrong. Our “Pride” and “Desire” for power has and will continue to absolutely corrupt us until something is done about it.
Our ‘pride and desire’ could be why we have been so successful as a species, sadly at the expense of other animals.Quote I suppose that you think we shall eventually gain enough knowledge, and power to correct or stupidness? I think not.
People used to think that science would overcome religion and people would live in a secular peace. That is not likely because people are inherently stupid! That is not a good enough reason to have a dismal view of humanity though.Quote Unless…there is another varible introduced…”A Divine Intervention”
Do you mean like the medieval crusades, the Spanish inquisition or the islamic jiihad?Quote Say what you will…and keep your beliefs if you wish …thats super. However, you should not be trying to take away what hope people have …that is not the answer. According to your logic and beliefs everything is Falliable unless “Cold-Hard” facts can prove otherwise…in which event …in your universe …nothing is for certian.
Which I agree with to a certain extent.
Why not demand evidence for religious belief? It is not as if all faiths are keeping quiet, or agreeing with one another, or refusing public funds on the ‘let and let live’ principle. I would never ask for political favour or power on the basis of something I could not demonstrate to be true. Why should the world ‘follow the stuff in the new testament’? You want political power for the biblical worldview but we had that for hundreds of years, the periods of history known as the dark ages and medieval times. I think that experiment failed. If you have no actual data to support a christian theocracy, maybe we should move on from that argument!Quote Thats where Faith comes in. Scientists have Faith as well they just don't call it Faith…They call it hypothesis. Sorry Samuel, wrong here. Faith is believing things without evidence, whereas an hypothesis is believing something based on past evidence, but itself yet to be tested.
Stuart
Quote (david @ April 03 2008,10:03) Quote I think Stu's point is that many of our modern discoveries about hygiene should have already been discovered by the Jews if God truly spoke to them. Yes, while the jews were burying their feces, the egyptians were rubbing it on their faces and using it as medicine.
…and the jews were making a big medical deal out of semen and mentrual discharge. You don't have to know anything about faeces other than they are smelly, to want to bury them.Do you have a reference for Egyptians spreading faeces on their faces?
Stuart
Actually, ancient Egyptians had toilets and bathed twice a day. If you want to read about various things about ancient Egyptian life try
- Women in Ancient Egypt – Women were treated much more equallly and with respect in Ancient Egypt, certainly better than ancient Israelites
- Ancient Egyptian Medicine – Get this: it appears that ancient Egyptians believed in circumcision!
- Aspects of Life in Ancient Egypt – several pages to view
- How Ancient Egypt Influenced The Modern World – Says circumcision was not the invention of Judaism,
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