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Paladin said:
Quote Yet YOU take the side of the accusing Jews. Wonder why that is. Oh, right, trinitarian. Don't require evidence, just testimony of unbelieving Jews who changed their testimony at his trial. It was John who actually said that Jesus made Himself equal with God. John did NOT say, “They thought He had made Himself equal with God.” John asserted that Jesus made Himself equal with God.
thinker
Paladin said:
Quote It is a lie foisted on the minds of religious zealots by overly religious commentators whose function in life is to make Jesus more than he really is. God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2). Paul is applying a prophecy from Isaiah 45 in reference to Jehovah. Ergo….
Jesus' name is above every name. Why is this so hard to understand?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,20:29) Paladin said: Quote Yet YOU take the side of the accusing Jews. Wonder why that is. Oh, right, trinitarian. Don't require evidence, just testimony of unbelieving Jews who changed their testimony at his trial. It was John who actually said that Jesus made Himself equal with God. John did NOT say, “They thought He had made Himself equal with God.” John asserted that Jesus made Himself equal with God.
thinker
Well at least we can now understand why you are a trinitarian. You can't read the scriptures.It seems kinda funny to me but every time someone accused Jesus of “being equal to God” scripture does NOT say “He replied to John…” it says “He said to THEM.”
John is not a “THEM.” The unbelieving crowd is.
Quote (Paladin @ July 06 2009,22:37) Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,20:29) Paladin said: Quote Yet YOU take the side of the accusing Jews. Wonder why that is. Oh, right, trinitarian. Don't require evidence, just testimony of unbelieving Jews who changed their testimony at his trial. It was John who actually said that Jesus made Himself equal with God. John did NOT say, “They thought He had made Himself equal with God.” John asserted that Jesus made Himself equal with God.
thinker
Well at least we can now understand why you are a trinitarian. You can't read the scriptures.It seems kinda funny to me but every time someone accused Jesus of “being equal to God” scripture does NOT say “He replied to John…” it says “He said to THEM.”
John is not a “THEM.” The unbelieving crowd is.
Paladin,
It is you who misread the Scriptures. Read them carefully please! John said that the Jews wanted to kill Him for calling God His own Father. Then he adds, “making Himself equal with God.” That part of the statement “making Himself equal with God” is John's commentary on what Jesus said.p.s. I applaud you for keeping your last post brief.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,20:35) Paladin said: Quote It is a lie foisted on the minds of religious zealots by overly religious commentators whose function in life is to make Jesus more than he really is. God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2). Paul is applying a prophecy from Isaiah 45 in reference to Jehovah. Ergo….
Jesus' name is above every name. Why is this so hard to understand?
thinker
You are wrong about Phil 2 and the name which is above every name.The clue you missed, is the fact God gave a name to Jesus, he did not give the name Jesus to Jesus. And the name Jesus is in the possessive, while name is dative, which makes it a direct object; so You have “at the name given to therefore belonging to Jesus…”
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and [exarisato ind.aor.dep.3s] given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the [dative] name of [Ieesou genitive = Jesus] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [name = direct object][ Jesus = possessive][name belonging to Jesus]
And in 69 a.d. John tells us Jesus has a new name
And in Rev 19; John tells us Jesus is Given a name “logos of God.”
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
“Jesus” is not a name no man knew. Jesus was not a “new name” and “Jesus” is not a name above every name.
Is “word of God” as a name, raised to the highest level?
Psa 138:2″…for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”
Quote (Paladin @ July 06 2009,14:12) Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,20:35) Paladin said: Quote It is a lie foisted on the minds of religious zealots by overly religious commentators whose function in life is to make Jesus more than he really is. God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2). Paul is applying a prophecy from Isaiah 45 in reference to Jehovah. Ergo….
Jesus' name is above every name. Why is this so hard to understand?
thinker
You are wrong about Phil 2 and the name which is above every name.The clue you missed, is the fact God gave a name to Jesus, he did not give the name Jesus to Jesus. And the name Jesus is in the possessive, while name is dative, which makes it a direct object; so You have “at the name given to therefore belonging to Jesus…”
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and [exarisato ind.aor.dep.3s] given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the [dative] name of [Ieesou genitive = Jesus] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [name = direct object][ Jesus = possessive][name belonging to Jesus]
And in 69 a.d. John tells us Jesus has a new name
And in Rev 19; John tells us Jesus is Given a name “logos of God.”
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
“Jesus” is not a name no man knew. Jesus was not a “new name” and “Jesus” is not a name above every name.
Is “word of God” as a name, raised to the highest level?
Psa 138:2″…for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”
Hi PDContextually you are wrong again!
The phrase 'kainos onoma', “New name” is not found in Phil 2.
The Apostle clearly tells us what name is higher than any other and what name we shall confess…
and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father“. Phil 2:11
Paul is elevating Jesus name to being equal to YHWY.
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: “Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear“. Isa 45:23
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, “every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God“. Rom 14:11
A couple more thorns in the flesh for the non-trinitarian!
WJ
Hi WJ,
Your false doctrine presses thorns in the head of Christ.So If Jesus gives glory to his God in what way is that equality?
If he has equality with God then you proclaim two equal gods.God is one.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2009,15:31) Hi WJ,
Your false doctrine presses thorns in the head of Christ.So If Jesus gives glory to his God in what way is that equality?
If he has equality with God then you proclaim two equal gods.God is one.
HI NHYea right? You really think anyone can put thorns in Jesus head?
The Phil 2:11 does not say Jesus is giving glory to the Father, but instead says…
and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father“. Phil 2:11Will you give glory to the Father, and just how will you do this?
Jesus has the name above all names, you do believe this don't you?
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,03:43) Quote (Paladin @ July 06 2009,22:37) Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,20:29) Paladin said: Quote Yet YOU take the side of the accusing Jews. Wonder why that is. Oh, right, trinitarian. Don't require evidence, just testimony of unbelieving Jews who changed their testimony at his trial. It was John who actually said that Jesus made Himself equal with God. John did NOT say, “They thought He had made Himself equal with God.” John asserted that Jesus made Himself equal with God.
thinker
Well at least we can now understand why you are a trinitarian. You can't read the scriptures.It seems kinda funny to me but every time someone accused Jesus of “being equal to God” scripture does NOT say “He replied to John…” it says “He said to THEM.”
John is not a “THEM.” The unbelieving crowd is.
Paadin,
It is you who misread the Scriptures. Read them carefully please! John said that the Jews wanted to kill Him for calling God His own Father. Then he adds, “making Himself equal with God.” That part of the statement “making Himself equal with God” is John's commentary on what Jesus said.p.s. I applaud you for keeping your last post brief.
thinker
Wrong!Quote (Paladin @ July 07 2009,06:12) Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,20:35) Paladin said: Quote It is a lie foisted on the minds of religious zealots by overly religious commentators whose function in life is to make Jesus more than he really is. God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2). Paul is applying a prophecy from Isaiah 45 in reference to Jehovah. Ergo….
Jesus' name is above every name. Why is this so hard to understand?
thinker
You are wrong about Phil 2 and the name which is above every name.The clue you missed, is the fact God gave a name to Jesus, he did not give the name Jesus to Jesus. And the name Jesus is in the possessive, while name is dative, which makes it a direct object; so You have “at the name given to therefore belonging to Jesus…”
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and [exarisato ind.aor.dep.3s] given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the [dative] name of [Ieesou genitive = Jesus] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [name = direct object][ Jesus = possessive][name belonging to Jesus]
And in 69 a.d. John tells us Jesus has a new name
And in Rev 19; John tells us Jesus is Given a name “logos of God.”
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
“Jesus” is not a name no man knew. Jesus was not a “new name” and “Jesus” is not a name above every name.
Is “word of God” as a name, raised to the highest level?
Psa 138:2″…for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”
Paladin,
It clearly says that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. In denying Jesus you deny the Father who you claim is your God.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 07 2009,07:31) Hi WJ,
Your false doctrine presses thorns in the head of Christ.So If Jesus gives glory to his God in what way is that equality?
If he has equality with God then you proclaim two equal gods.God is one.
Nick,
Philippians 2 is not about Jesus giving glory to God. It is about men confessing the name of Jesus to God's glory. If you don't bow to Jesus' name or confess that He is Lord then you do not glorify God.thinker
Thinker said to Paladin:
Quote It is you who misread the Scriptures. Read them carefully please! John said that the Jews wanted to kill Him for calling God His own Father. Then he adds, “making Himself equal with God.” That part of the statement “making Himself equal with God” is John's commentary on what Jesus said. Paladin replied:
Quote Wrong! That's it?
This is your briefest post yet.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,07:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2009,15:31) Hi WJ,
Your false doctrine presses thorns in the head of Christ.So If Jesus gives glory to his God in what way is that equality?
If he has equality with God then you proclaim two equal gods.God is one.
HI NHYea right? You really think anyone can put thorns in Jesus head?
The Phil 2:11 does not say Jesus is giving glory to the Father, but instead says…
and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father“. Phil 2:11Will you give glory to the Father, and just how will you do this?
Jesus has the name above all names, you do believe this don't you?
WJ
WJ,
It is amazing that some men think that they can belittle Jesus after God has explicitly told them what they had better do.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,15:59) Thinker said to Paladin: Quote It is you who misread the Scriptures. Read them carefully please! John said that the Jews wanted to kill Him for calling God His own Father. Then he adds, “making Himself equal with God.” That part of the statement “making Himself equal with God” is John's commentary on what Jesus said. Paladin replied:
Quote Wrong! That's it?
This is your briefest post yet.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,07:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2009,15:31) Hi WJ,
Your false doctrine presses thorns in the head of Christ.So If Jesus gives glory to his God in what way is that equality?
If he has equality with God then you proclaim two equal gods.God is one.
HI NHYea right? You really think anyone can put thorns in Jesus head?
The Phil 2:11 does not say Jesus is giving glory to the Father, but instead says…
and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father“. Phil 2:11Will you give glory to the Father, and just how will you do this?
Jesus has the name above all names, you do believe this don't you?
WJ
Philippians 2:11 (King James Version)11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
the scripture says “should” why leave that out or what translation is it that left it out?
Philippians 2:11 (New King James Version)
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Philippians 2:11 (Young's Literal Translation)
11and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father
Philippians 2 (Darby Translation)
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal [beings],11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord to God [the] Father's glory.
The fact is the scripture does not say “will” bow or “must” bow it says “should” or “may” bow as in it is okay to bow because of his prestige but it makes it clear that if you bow let it be to the Glory of the Father.
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,07:59) Thinker said to Paladin: Quote It is you who misread the Scriptures. Read them carefully please! John said that the Jews wanted to kill Him for calling God His own Father. Then he adds, “making Himself equal with God.” That part of the statement “making Himself equal with God” is John's commentary on what Jesus said. Paladin replied:
Quote Wrong! That's it?
This is your briefest post yet.
thinker
Well, I thought about just putting !? but I didn't think you would understand the point. BUT, it IS brief.!?
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,07:47) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2009,15:31) Hi WJ,
Your false doctrine presses thorns in the head of Christ.So If Jesus gives glory to his God in what way is that equality?
If he has equality with God then you proclaim two equal gods.God is one.
HI NHYea right? You really think anyone can put thorns in Jesus head?
The Phil 2:11 does not say Jesus is giving glory to the Father, but instead says…
and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father“. Phil 2:11Will you give glory to the Father, and just how will you do this?
Jesus has the name above all names, you do believe this don't you?
WJ
WJ,
It is amazing that some men think that they can belittle Jesus after God has explicitly told them what they had better do.thinker
Kinda like ignoring Jesus when HE says “True worshippers will worship the Father?”Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,06:34) Quote (Paladin @ July 06 2009,14:12) Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,20:35) Paladin said: Quote It is a lie foisted on the minds of religious zealots by overly religious commentators whose function in life is to make Jesus more than he really is. God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2). Paul is applying a prophecy from Isaiah 45 in reference to Jehovah. Ergo….
Jesus' name is above every name. Why is this so hard to understand?
thinker
You are wrong about Phil 2 and the name which is above every name.The clue you missed, is the fact God gave a name to Jesus, he did not give the name Jesus to Jesus. And the name Jesus is in the possessive, while name is dative, which makes it a direct object; so You have “at the name given to therefore belonging to Jesus…”
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and [exarisato ind.aor.dep.3s] given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the [dative] name of [Ieesou genitive = Jesus] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [name = direct object][ Jesus = possessive][name belonging to Jesus]
And in 69 a.d. John tells us Jesus has a new name
And in Rev 19; John tells us Jesus is Given a name “logos of God.”
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
“Jesus” is not a name no man knew. Jesus was not a “new name” and “Jesus” is not a name above every name.
Is “word of God” as a name, raised to the highest level?
Psa 138:2″…for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”
Hi PDContextually you are wrong again!
The phrase 'kainos onoma', “New name” is not found in Phil 2.
The Apostle clearly tells us what name is higher than any other and what name we shall confess…
and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father“. Phil 2:11
Paul is elevating Jesus name to being equal to YHWY.
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: “Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear“. Isa 45:23
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, “every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God“. Rom 14:11
A couple more thorns in the flesh for the non-trinitarian!
WJ
Quote
A couple more thorns in the flesh for the non-trinitarian!Not really. Just like to show your depth of scholarship in the Greek.
It is more apparent in John's remark about the Father's name. “Father's” is possesive, and in the genitive form, while “name” is the direct object, and in the dative form.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my [Father's = Gen][name = dat], they bear witness of me.
So also, “Jesus” is possessive, therefore genitive form; and “name” is direct object, therefore Dative. It is the name Jesus was given in addition to the name Jesus. It is his possession, as given to him.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and [exarisato ind.aor.dep.3s] given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the [dative = name] of [Jesus = genitive] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [name = direct object][ Jesus = possessive][name belonging to Jesus]
Thought you guys claimed to know some Greek!!!
Quote (Paladin @ July 06 2009,18:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,06:34) Quote (Paladin @ July 06 2009,14:12) Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,20:35) Paladin said: Quote It is a lie foisted on the minds of religious zealots by overly religious commentators whose function in life is to make Jesus more than he really is. God has exalted Jesus and has given Him a name that is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2). Paul is applying a prophecy from Isaiah 45 in reference to Jehovah. Ergo….
Jesus' name is above every name. Why is this so hard to understand?
thinker
You are wrong about Phil 2 and the name which is above every name.The clue you missed, is the fact God gave a name to Jesus, he did not give the name Jesus to Jesus. And the name Jesus is in the possessive, while name is dative, which makes it a direct object; so You have “at the name given to therefore belonging to Jesus…”
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and [exarisato ind.aor.dep.3s] given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the [dative] name of [Ieesou genitive = Jesus] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [name = direct object][ Jesus = possessive][name belonging to Jesus]
And in 69 a.d. John tells us Jesus has a new name
And in Rev 19; John tells us Jesus is Given a name “logos of God.”
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
“Jesus” is not a name no man knew. Jesus was not a “new name” and “Jesus” is not a name above every name.
Is “word of God” as a name, raised to the highest level?
Psa 138:2″…for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”
Hi PDContextually you are wrong again!
The phrase 'kainos onoma', “New name” is not found in Phil 2.
The Apostle clearly tells us what name is higher than any other and what name we shall confess…
and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father“. Phil 2:11
Paul is elevating Jesus name to being equal to YHWY.
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: “Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear“. Isa 45:23
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, “every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God“. Rom 14:11
A couple more thorns in the flesh for the non-trinitarian!
WJ
Quote
A couple more thorns in the flesh for the non-trinitarian!Not really. Just like to show your depth of scholarship in the Greek.
It is more apparent in John's remark about the Father's name. “Father's” is possesive, and in the genitive form, while “name” is the direct object, and in the dative form.
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my [Father's = Gen][name = dat], they bear witness of me.
So also, “Jesus” is possessive, therefore genitive form; and “name” is direct object, therefore Dative. It is the name Jesus was given in addition to the name Jesus. It is his possession, as given to him.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and [exarisato ind.aor.dep.3s] given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the [dative = name] of [Jesus = genitive] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [name = direct object][ Jesus = possessive][name belonging to Jesus]
Thought you guys claimed to know some Greek!!!
No the claiming Greek part is all you have been parading. You are the one that claims to know more than the translators and “Strong” and A.T. Robertson.
and “every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father“. Phil 2:11
It doesnt take Greek to know that our tongues will confess that “Jesus Christ is Lord” to the Glory of God the Father!
No new name, just the same name that everything in the NT is done through, whether it be prayers, healing, raising the dead, baptism, Etc, Etc, Etc.
The name that is above all names, Jesus Christ!
WJ
bodhitharta said:
Quote The fact is the scripture does not say “will” bow or “must” bow it says “should” or “may” bow as in it is okay to bow because of his prestige but it makes it clear that if you bow let it be to the Glory of the Father. bd,
Now this is really lame! You do not understand conditional verbs in the Greek. Paul was referring to Isaiah 45:23 which says that every knee SHALL bow.thinker
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