Scripture vs. punctuation in translations.

[Paladin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,03:06)

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,10:09) How do I go about that? Hi PD Click here And you will see in the topic starter “t8” click on “t8” and there is an option to PM him. He can set up the debate in the debate thread and lock the thread so that no one can post until the debate is over. Give him the rules of the debate the time and date and he can make the announcement! Blessings WJ

Thank you for your help.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,12:26)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,03:06) Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,10:09) How do I go about that? Hi PD Click here And you will see in the topic starter “t8” click on “t8” and there is an option to PM him. He can set up the debate in the debate thread and lock the thread so that no one can post until the debate is over. Give him the rules of the debate the time and date and he can make the announcement! Blessings WJ Thank you for your help.

Hi PD

You are welcome!

WJ

[Paladin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,03:48)

Quote (thethinker @ June 29 2009,11:09) Paladin said: Quote Wisdom testified in the eighth Proverb, that she was present with God prior to creation. Since Wisdom “came forth” as a birth, she certainly qualifies to be categorized with the Elohim, from which she sprang. God was speaking to wisdom, who being Elohim, by virtue of coming from Elohim alone, qualifies to be included in the “us” of Gen 1:26 and others. Aknowledge it or refute it. Paladin, I have answered this more than once. Where have you been? I deny that Proverbs 8 his germane to our discussion. Wisdom is personified as a housewife in chapters 8-9. I do not accept your treatment of Hebrew poetry. Paladin said: Quote Our debating ANYTHING hangs in the balance. I am not surprised. Let the record show that I am not the one backing out. You know you won't stand against sound logic. thinker Hi Jack PD thinks that the us is Gods wisdom. So he believes that God is speaking to an inanimate object that has the nature of God! Also somehow this wisdom “helped” God in the creation for the scripture says “Let us make man”. But the proverbs that he quotes shows that wisdom did nothing in the creation but was simply there. God did the creating and his wisdom. was there in the creating process, so the “us” cannot be God refering to his own wisdom for wisdom did not do the creating! WJ

What makes you think Wisdom is innactive? She actually is presented as a very active force in scripture. And she is personified in the proverbs and other scriptures.

Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified.

God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” But I do not pretend to be in the inner circle with God and wisdom. I offer only what is revealed in scripture, as proclaimed by wisdom herself, and God Himself.

Thank you for your input.

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 29 2009,19:41)

Paladin said: Quote This was so immaterial I forgot I even posted it. And it was true, no scripture says Jesus Christ came in the flesh. What scripture says is “Jesus Christ came in flesh.” There is no article in the Greek of that verse, or any of the other verses dealing with this issue. To All, Just more Paladian double talk. Whether the article is present or not makes no difference. Note that he feels that his denial that Jesus Christ came in “the” flesh is “immaterial.” I can't believe he is actually going to debate me. His philosophy of language does not stand a chance. thinker

Yah! I remember! “Big leagues!” Right?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,12:38)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,03:48) Quote (thethinker @ June 29 2009,11:09) Paladin said: Quote Wisdom testified in the eighth Proverb, that she was present with God prior to creation. Since Wisdom “came forth” as a birth, she certainly qualifies to be categorized with the Elohim, from which she sprang. God was speaking to wisdom, who being Elohim, by virtue of coming from Elohim alone, qualifies to be included in the “us” of Gen 1:26 and others. Aknowledge it or refute it. Paladin, I have answered this more than once. Where have you been? I deny that Proverbs 8 his germane to our discussion. Wisdom is personified as a housewife in chapters 8-9. I do not accept your treatment of Hebrew poetry. Paladin said: Quote Our debating ANYTHING hangs in the balance. I am not surprised. Let the record show that I am not the one backing out. You know you won't stand against sound logic. thinker Hi Jack PD thinks that the us is Gods wisdom. So he believes that God is speaking to an inanimate object that has the nature of God! Also somehow this wisdom “helped” God in the creation for the scripture says “Let us make man”. But the proverbs that he quotes shows that wisdom did nothing in the creation but was simply there. God did the creating and his wisdom. was there in the creating process, so the “us” cannot be God refering to his own wisdom for wisdom did not do the creating! WJ What makes you think Wisdom is innactive? She actually is presented as a very active force in scripture. And she is personified in the proverbs and other scriptures. Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified. God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” But I do not pretend to be in the inner circle with God and wisdom. I offer only what is revealed in scripture, as proclaimed by wisdom herself, and God Himself. Thank you for your input.

HI PD

Wisdom doesn't have nature or gender. And wisdom doesn't do anything. The wisdom is there for those to act on it.

WJ

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 29 2009,19:41)

(thinker)
Paladin said:

Quote

This was so immaterial I forgot I even posted it. And it was true, no scripture says Jesus Christ came in the flesh. What scripture says is “Jesus Christ came in flesh.” There is no article in the Greek of that verse, or any of the other verses dealing with this issue. (thinker) To All, Just more Paladin double talk. Whether the article is present or not makes no difference.

(P) I do hope you get all this accusation making (“Just more Paladin double talk”) out of your system, because if you do it in the debate you will be disqualified.

(thinker)

Quote

Note that he feels that his denial that Jesus Christ came in “the” flesh is “immaterial.”

What is it with you thinker? Do you think the readers need your help to comprehend what I post? Or are you having such difficulty with it that you require the help of the readers to explain it to you?

My statement about Jesus Christ coming in flesh, if you were to actually quote what I said, was dealing with how the translators deal with the issue. THAT is what makes it immaterial to what WE are discussing.

(thinker)

Quote

I can't believe he is actually going to debate me. His philosophy of language does not stand a chance.

Right! “Big leagues!” I'll have to remind myself.

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

Quote

What makes you think Wisdom is innactive? She actually is presented as a very active force in scripture. And she is personified in the proverbs and other scriptures. Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified. God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” But I do not pretend to be in the inner circle with God and wisdom. I offer only what is revealed in scripture, as proclaimed by wisdom herself, and God Himself.

Paladin,
Wisdom is depicted as a housewife. It simply means that God in His wisdom created all things. It is poetic literature man!

Paladin said:

Quote

Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified.

Thank you! So proverbs 8-9 is NOT talking about an actual person who was “brought forth” and created with God.

Paladin said:

Quote

God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…”

Thank you again! God speaks of her as though she is a person. So Proverbs 8-9 does NOT say that an actual person  was “brought forth” who created with God.

I think you are starting to get it  

thinker

[Paladin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,04:47)

HI PD Wisdom doesn't have nature or gender. And wisdom doesn't do anything. The wisdom is there for those to act on it. WJ

Exodus 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of [hokma] wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

hokma noun feminine singular
(647a) hokma wisdom.

I don't know about you, but I consider “feminine” to reference gender.

As for wisdom “not doing anything” at least now I know why you and thinker thinks it is just poetry.

WISDOM CRIES
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry?

WISDOM UNDERSTANDS
and understanding put forth her voice?

WISDOM STANDS
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

WISDOM CRIES OUT
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

WISDOM CALLS
4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

WISDOM SPEAKS
6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

WISDOM SPEAKS TRUTH
7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

WISDOM IS RIGHTEOUS
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. 9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

WISDOM INSTRUCTS
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

WISDOM DWELLS WITH PRUDENCE
12 I wisdom dwell with prudence,

WISDOM DISCOVERS
and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

WISDOM HATES
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

WISDOM COUNCILS
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom:

WISDOM UNDERSTANDS
I am understanding;

WISDOM HAS STRENGTH
I have strength.

15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

WISDOM LOVES
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

WISDOM LEADS
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

WISDOM CAUSES
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

WISDOM WAS POSSESSED
22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

WISDOM WAS SET UP
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

WISDOM WAS BROUGHT FORTH
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

WISDOM OCCUPIES A PLACE
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

WISDOM WAS WITH GOD
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight,

WISDOM REJOICES
rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

WISDOM INSTRUCTS ABOUT LIFE
33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

HOW CAN YOU SAY “WISDOM DOESN'T DO ANYTHING?

Oh, right, I forgot, it's just poetry. Right?

Deu 8:3 “… by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.”

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,13:17)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,04:47) HI PD Wisdom doesn't have nature or gender. And wisdom doesn't do anything. The wisdom is there for those to act on it. WJ Exodus 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of [hokma] wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. hokma noun feminine singular     (647a) hokma  wisdom. I don't know about you, but I consider “feminine” to reference gender. As for wisdom “not doing anything” at least now I know why  you and thinker thinks it is just poetry. WISDOM CRIES Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? WISDOM UNDERSTANDS and understanding put forth her voice? WISDOM STANDS 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. WISDOM CRIES OUT 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. WISDOM CALLS 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. WISDOM SPEAKS 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. WISDOM SPEAKS TRUTH 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. WISDOM IS RIGHTEOUS 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.  9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. WISDOM INSTRUCTS 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. WISDOM DWELLS WITH PRUDENCE 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, WISDOM DISCOVERS and find out knowledge of witty inventions. WISDOM HATES 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. WISDOM COUNCILS 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: WISDOM UNDERSTANDS I am understanding; WISDOM HAS STRENGTH I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. WISDOM LOVES 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. WISDOM LEADS 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: WISDOM CAUSES 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. WISDOM WAS POSSESSED 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. WISDOM WAS SET UP 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. WISDOM WAS BROUGHT FORTH 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. WISDOM OCCUPIES A PLACE 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: WISDOM WAS WITH GOD 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, WISDOM REJOICES rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. WISDOM INSTRUCTS ABOUT LIFE 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. HOW CAN YOU SAY “WISDOM DOESN'T DO ANYTHING? Oh, right, I forgot, it's just poetry. Right? Deu 8:3 “… by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.” Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Hi PD

That is amazing how you think wisdom by itself does anything!

How does wisdom cry?

Who penned it in proverbs. Did wisdom write itself?

Notice Jesus said “every word that “Proceedeth out of the mouth of God“?

Now I see why you think the Rock that was Christ was just an anointed rock! To you inanimate objects have life and a will and a mind. Why is it so hard to believe God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then?

LOL

WJ

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,05:00)

Paladin said: Quote What makes you think Wisdom is innactive? She actually is presented as a very active force in scripture. And she is personified in the proverbs and other scriptures. Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified. God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” But I do not pretend to be in the inner circle with God and wisdom. I offer only what is revealed in scripture, as proclaimed by wisdom herself, and God Himself. Paladin, Wisdom is depicted as a housewife. It simply means that God in His wisdom created all things. It is poetic literature man! Paladin said: Quote Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified. Thank you! So proverbs 8-9 is NOT talking about an actual person who was “brought forth” and created with God. Paladin said: Quote God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” Thank you again! God speaks of her as though she is a person. So Proverbs 8-9 does NOT say that an actual person  was “brought forth” who created with God. I think you are starting to get it   thinker

There you go again, twisting and perverting what I have said.

I said wisdom is a person because wisdom testified she was brought forth and was with God in creation.

I said YOUR REMARKS about proverbs 8-9 (“Wisdom is depicted as…”) make her a personification.

Do try to entertain two coherent thoughts at one time.

As for whether Wisdom is a “Person” or not, how does that change anything? I could say “My brother saw me and my dog walking along the riverbank and he offered us a ride in his boat.” How does “us” make my dog a person?

If God brings forth wisdom, and includes her in the statement using “us” how does it make any difference whatsoever to you or me, whether he is addressin a person or simply his own offspring, for she was after all, brought forth from Elohim, WHATEVER her subsequent designation.

She most certainly WAS, under ANY description, included in the Gen 1:26 meaning of “us.”

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said to Paladin:

Quote

Now I see why you think the Rock that was Christ was just an anointed rock! To you inanimate objects have life and a will and a mind. Why is it so hard to believe God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then?

WJ,
The Gnostics would rather that God anoint a rock than God anoint God. Paladin's beliefs are Gnosticism 101 and are nothing new though he thinks he is offering something new and profound.

blessings,
thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
God anointed God?
So which God was greater?
If they are higher and lower gods then there is no trinity.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,05:50)

Hi TT, God anointed God? So which God was greater? If they are higher and lower gods then there is no trinity.

Whatever Nick

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,13:37)

Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,05:00) Paladin said: Quote What makes you think Wisdom is innactive? She actually is presented as a very active force in scripture. And she is personified in the proverbs and other scriptures. Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified. God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” But I do not pretend to be in the inner circle with God and wisdom. I offer only what is revealed in scripture, as proclaimed by wisdom herself, and God Himself. Paladin, Wisdom is depicted as a housewife. It simply means that God in His wisdom created all things. It is poetic literature man! Paladin said: Quote Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified. Thank you! So proverbs 8-9 is NOT talking about an actual person who was “brought forth” and created with God. Paladin said: Quote God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” Thank you again! God speaks of her as though she is a person. So Proverbs 8-9 does NOT say that an actual person  was “brought forth” who created with God. I think you are starting to get it   thinker There you go again, twisting and perverting what I have said. I said wisdom is a person because wisdom testified she was brought forth and was with God in creation. I said YOUR REMARKS about proverbs 8-9 (“Wisdom is depicted as…”) make her a personification. Do try to entertain two coherent thoughts at one time. As for whether Wisdom is a “Person” or not, how does that change anything? I could say “My brother saw me and my dog walking along the riverbank and he offered us a ride in his boat.” How does “us” make my dog a person? If God brings forth wisdom, and includes her in the statement using “us” how does it make any difference whatsoever to you or me, whether he is addressin a person or simply his own offspring, for she was after all, brought forth from Elohim, WHATEVER her subsequent designation. She most certainly WAS, under ANY description, included in the Gen 1:26 meaning of “us.”

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,13:37)

As for whether Wisdom is a “Person” or not, how does that change anything? I could say “My brother saw me and my dog walking along the riverbank and he offered us a ride in his boat.” How does “us” make my dog a person?

Your dog doesn't have your nature and create things with you does it?

WJ

[Paladin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,05:28)

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,13:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,04:47) HI PD Wisdom doesn't have nature or gender. And wisdom doesn't do anything. The wisdom is there for those to act on it. WJ Exodus 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of [hokma] wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. hokma noun feminine singular     (647a) hokma  wisdom. I don't know about you, but I consider “feminine” to reference gender. As for wisdom “not doing anything” at least now I know why  you and thinker thinks it is just poetry. WISDOM CRIES Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? WISDOM UNDERSTANDS and understanding put forth her voice? WISDOM STANDS 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. WISDOM CRIES OUT 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. WISDOM CALLS 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. WISDOM SPEAKS 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. WISDOM SPEAKS TRUTH 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. WISDOM IS RIGHTEOUS 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.  9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. WISDOM INSTRUCTS 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. WISDOM DWELLS WITH PRUDENCE 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, WISDOM DISCOVERS and find out knowledge of witty inventions. WISDOM HATES 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. WISDOM COUNCILS 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: WISDOM UNDERSTANDS I am understanding; WISDOM HAS STRENGTH I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. WISDOM LOVES 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. WISDOM LEADS 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: WISDOM CAUSES 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. WISDOM WAS POSSESSED 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. WISDOM WAS SET UP 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. WISDOM WAS BROUGHT FORTH 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. WISDOM OCCUPIES A PLACE 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: WISDOM WAS WITH GOD 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, WISDOM REJOICES rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. WISDOM INSTRUCTS ABOUT LIFE 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. HOW CAN YOU SAY “WISDOM DOESN'T DO ANYTHING? Oh, right, I forgot, it's just poetry. Right? Deu 8:3 “… by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.” Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Hi PD That is amazing how you think wisdom by itself does anything! How does wisdom cry? Who penned it in proverbs. Did wisdom write itself? Notice Jesus said “every word that “Proceedeth out of the mouth of God“? Now I see why you think the Rock that was Christ was just an anointed rock! To you inanimate objects have life and a will and a mind. Why is it so hard to believe God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then? LOL WJ

(WJ)

Quote

Hi PD That is amazing how you think wisdom by itself does anything!

(P)What? Do you think I made it up? See all those little numerals beside the statements? Those are verse numbers in Proverbs 8. I did not write Proverbs. I read Proverbs. I believe Proverbs. I do not cast it aside after labeling it “Hebrew Poetry” as though it is not God's poetry.

(WJ)

Quote

How does wisdom cry?

(P) I don't know. How does the wind begin when it blows?

(WJ)

Quote

Who penned it in proverbs. Did wisdom write itself?

(P) How does that effect God's use of poetry to tell a truth?

(WJ)

Quote

Notice Jesus said “every word that “Proceedeth out of the mouth of God“? Now I see why you think the Rock that was Christ was just an anointed rock! To you inanimate objects have life and a will and a mind. Why is it so hard to believe God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then? LOL WJ

I did not say anything about the anointed rock being “JUST”

[Paladin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,05:28)

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,13:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,04:47) HI PD Wisdom doesn't have nature or gender. And wisdom doesn't do anything. The wisdom is there for those to act on it. WJ Exodus 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of [hokma] wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. hokma noun feminine singular     (647a) hokma  wisdom. I don't know about you, but I consider “feminine” to reference gender. As for wisdom “not doing anything” at least now I know why  you and thinker thinks it is just poetry. WISDOM CRIES Proverbs 8:1 Doth not wisdom cry? WISDOM UNDERSTANDS and understanding put forth her voice? WISDOM STANDS 2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. WISDOM CRIES OUT 3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors. WISDOM CALLS 4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man. 5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart. WISDOM SPEAKS 6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things. WISDOM SPEAKS TRUTH 7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. WISDOM IS RIGHTEOUS 8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.  9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge. WISDOM INSTRUCTS 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold. 11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it. WISDOM DWELLS WITH PRUDENCE 12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, WISDOM DISCOVERS and find out knowledge of witty inventions. WISDOM HATES 13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate. WISDOM COUNCILS 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: WISDOM UNDERSTANDS I am understanding; WISDOM HAS STRENGTH I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth. WISDOM LOVES 17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. 18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver. WISDOM LEADS 20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment: WISDOM CAUSES 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures. WISDOM WAS POSSESSED 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. WISDOM WAS SET UP 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. WISDOM WAS BROUGHT FORTH 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. WISDOM OCCUPIES A PLACE 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: WISDOM WAS WITH GOD 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, WISDOM REJOICES rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. WISDOM INSTRUCTS ABOUT LIFE 33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. HOW CAN YOU SAY “WISDOM DOESN'T DO ANYTHING? Oh, right, I forgot, it's just poetry. Right? Deu 8:3 “… by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.” Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Hi PD That is amazing how you think wisdom by itself does anything! How does wisdom cry? Who penned it in proverbs. Did wisdom write itself? Notice Jesus said “every word that “Proceedeth out of the mouth of God“? Now I see why you think the Rock that was Christ was just an anointed rock! To you inanimate objects have life and a will and a mind. Why is it so hard to believe God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then? LOL WJ

(WJ)

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Hi PD That is amazing how you think wisdom by itself does anything!

(P)What? Do you think I made it up? See all those little numerals beside the statements? Those are verse numbers in Proverbs 8. I did not write Proverbs. I read Proverbs. I believe Proverbs. I do not cast it aside after labeling it “Hebrew Poetry” as though it is not God's poetry.

(WJ)

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How does wisdom cry?

(P) I don't know. How does the wind begin when it blows?

(WJ)

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Who penned it in proverbs. Did wisdom write itself?

(P) How does that effect God's use of poetry to tell a truth?

(WJ)

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Notice Jesus said “every word that “Proceedeth out of the mouth of God“? Now I see why you think the Rock that was Christ was just an anointed rock! To you inanimate objects have life and a will and a mind. Why is it so hard to believe God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then? LOL WJ

I did not say anything about the anointed rock being “JUST”
anything. I said that rock was anointed. And since it was selected, anointed, and used by God I would assume, if asked, it was much more than “Just” anything at all.

I said nothing about the anointed rock having life, a will, or a mind. Is that what “anointed” of God means to you? So you think the anointing oil has life, a will, and a mind?

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,05:39)

WorshippingJesus said to Paladin: Quote Now I see why you think the Rock that was Christ was just an anointed rock! To you inanimate objects have life and a will and a mind. Why is it so hard to believe God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then? WJ, The Gnostics would rather that God anoint a rock than God anoint God. Paladin's beliefs are Gnosticism 101 and are nothing new though he thinks he is offering something new and profound. blessings, thinker

So now you pretend to know what I am thinking.

(thinker)

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though he thinks he is offering something new and profound.

Why don't you just admit it is YOU who considers it new and profound. The ONLY place I see it is in YOUR post.

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,05:55)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 30 2009,05:50) Hi TT, God anointed God? So which God was greater? If they are higher and lower gods then there is no trinity. Whatever Nick thinker

OOoohhhh!!!

A reBUTtal!

[Paladin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 30 2009,06:42)

Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,13:37) Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,05:00) Paladin said: Quote What makes you think Wisdom is innactive? She actually is presented as a very active force in scripture. And she is personified in the proverbs and other scriptures. Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified. God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” But I do not pretend to be in the inner circle with God and wisdom. I offer only what is revealed in scripture, as proclaimed by wisdom herself, and God Himself. Paladin, Wisdom is depicted as a housewife. It simply means that God in His wisdom created all things. It is poetic literature man! Paladin said: Quote Does that make her a person? no! That makes her personified. Thank you! So proverbs 8-9 is NOT talking about an actual person who was “brought forth” and created with God. Paladin said: Quote God treats her as though she is a person in Gen 1:26 “Let us make…” Thank you again! God speaks of her as though she is a person. So Proverbs 8-9 does NOT say that an actual person  was “brought forth” who created with God. I think you are starting to get it   thinker There you go again, twisting and perverting what I have said. I said wisdom is a person because wisdom testified she was brought forth and was with God in creation. I said YOUR REMARKS about proverbs 8-9 (“Wisdom is depicted as…”) make her a personification. Do try to entertain two coherent thoughts at one time. As for whether Wisdom is a “Person” or not, how does that change anything? I could say “My brother saw me and my dog walking along the riverbank and he offered us a ride in his boat.” How does “us” make my dog a person? If God brings forth wisdom, and includes her in the statement using “us” how does it make any difference whatsoever to you or me, whether he is addressin a person or simply his own offspring, for she was after all, brought forth from Elohim, WHATEVER her subsequent designation. She most certainly WAS, under ANY description, included in the Gen 1:26 meaning of “us.” Quote (Paladin @ June 29 2009,13:37) As for whether Wisdom is a “Person” or not, how does that change anything? I could say “My brother saw me and my dog walking along the riverbank and he offered us a ride in his boat.” How does “us” make my dog a person? Your dog doesn't have your nature and create things with you does it? WJ

The issue is about the use of “us,” not whether me and my dog create.

Gen 1:26 controversy has ALWAYS been about the use and meaning of “us,” not what “us” was doing.

Remember the question?
(P)

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If God brings forth wisdom, and includes her in the statement using “us” how does it make any difference whatsoever to you or me, whether he is addressin a person or simply his own offspring, for she was after all, brought forth from Elohim, WHATEVER her subsequent designation. She most certainly WAS, under ANY description, included in the Gen 1:26 meaning of “us.”

Can't answer the question, so attack the messenger eh?

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 30 2009,05:39)

WorshippingJesus said to Paladin: Quote Now I see why you think the Rock that was Christ was just an anointed rock! To you inanimate objects have life and a will and a mind. Why is it so hard to believe God is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then? WJ, The Gnostics would rather that God anoint a rock than God anoint God. Paladin's beliefs are Gnosticism 101 and are nothing new though he thinks he is offering something new and profound. blessings, thinker

Hi TT,
So your exposition of Acts 10.38 would be

that God anointed God with God and God was with God?

[Author]

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