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Hi kenrch,
1 Peter 3
” 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, “Hebrews 11 confirmed that genuine faith involves both our understanding and love of God AS WELL as righteous acceptable works. Now I am impressed to reconcile Hebrews 11 with James 2 etc, to test this even further.
I'd said earlier on the previous page: “Faith knows that God is, and that he is faithful. Faith ALSO on the basis of that knowing, acts accordingly! It is an artificial separation to attempt to separate the TWO; either part results in lack of faith.”
And Now the Apostle James:
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?Jam 2:17 Even so FAITH, IF IT HATH NOT WORKS, IS DEAD, BEING ALONE.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME thy faith without thy works, and I will shew Thee my faith BY MY WORKS.Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Jam 2:22 Seest thou how FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was FULFILLED which saith, Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY.
Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Conclusion: It is a dead faith which is without works; Living faith involves works; Abraham's “belief” by which he obtained righteousness was fulfilled per his offering of his promised son, Isaac.
Similarly, love, as indicated in the earlier verses of James 2.
So I dare say that:
1. Either the Apostles James and Paul agree, and the majority of Christians have misunderstood what faith is per scripture
2. or that the Apostles Paul and James conflict in their teaching.
I believe that we have misunderstood, thinking faith merely involved belief.
LIVING FAITH vs. DEAD FAITH:
Luk 7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum.
Luk 7:2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.
Luk 7:3 And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.
Luk 7:4 And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:
Luk 7:5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.
Luk 7:6 Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying unto him, Lord, trouble not thyself: for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof:
Luk 7:7 Wherefore neither thought I myself worthy to come unto thee: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed.
Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say unto one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Luk 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.1. The Centurion loved Israel, and demonstrated his love through building a synagogue, he obviously believed in God because he believed Jesus to be who he is.
2. He loved his servant and demonstrated this by doing all that he could to get him help as opposed to just believing that Jesus could do it and leaving it there. He actually did what was within his power, by finding elders among the Jews to beseech Jesus on behalf of his servant.
4. This action (works) was coupled with his understanding and belief that Christ, like he, is someone UNDER authority and with that authority comes the powers of the office to send one's own servants to do what is needed on one's behalf.
This Jesus called great faith not found in Israel. I see belief in God and diligent seeking in this story, without which we cannot please God.
How different it is from the old, “name it and claim it” doctrine we get sold on tapes and in books.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.Mark 2:3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, THEY UNCOVERED THE ROOF where He was. So when they had broken through, THEY LET DOWN THE BED on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus SAW their FAITH…,Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
Saved by grace through faith?
Certainly healed, for sure!Are works important? Should we be baptized in water?
OF COURSE!!!
Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and thy love and faith and ministry and patience, and that thy last works are more than the first.
Once you have faith and believe then you should have fruits of that faith which is works.
James 2 is merely speaking of that fruit. Love your neighbour as yourself. If I were cold I would want a coat to keep me warm. I would want and expect a brother or sister to supply that coat and not just pray that God send me a coat via someone else.
If you have faith you will have works. But we are not justified by those works if we don't have faith.
If you have no faith then you are not saved. If you have no faith then your works are nothing. Works won't get you to heaven.
If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart then you are saved. If you are saved then works should follow if no works follow then you never had faith and were never saved. If I confessed Jesus and died before I had works, or was baptized in water would I still be saved?
It is no secret that Nick believes that unless you are baptized (no matter what) then you are not saved. This is the same If you have no works (no matter what) then are you still saved?
Paul says we are justified by faith and not works. Paul says that if we confess Jesus by faith then we are saved. Again James is speaking about fruits once we are saved.
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Does Paul say if you believe and give me a coat you will be saved? YOU are EXPECTED if you are saved ALREADY to give me a coat that I may be warm.Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law ( love your neighbour) of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we ESTABLISH the law (that we love our neighbour) THROUGH Faith.
It is only when we read with other peoples eyes that we get confused. Are we to follow men (by water,works we are saved) or should we follow the Spirit and scripture.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
If we have not the fruits of the Spirit then we have not the Spirit. If we have not Faith then we have not works and not the Spirit.Did we receive the Spirit by works?
Gal 3:5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law [ love your neighbour], or by the hearing of faith?
Is not the works and law in these scriptures LOVE! Love your neighbour as yourself as James is speaking of?
Rom 3:27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law [which is fuklfilled by love].
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling;
Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
It is plain and elementary principles of Christianty.
Let each be convinced in THEIR own mind.
Heb 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hi kenrch,
You said.“If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart then you are saved.”
But scripture does not quite say that and we must be accurate.
Rom 10
” 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you WILL BE saved;”If we
repent
believe
obey
follow
we will be savedDid we receive the Spirit by works? Did you? Why can't you answer simple questions.
Do you believe your doctrine that if you die before getting to water and now not being able to perform works that you are not saved?
Gal 3:5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law [ love your neighbour], or by the hearing of faith?
Is not the works and law in these scriptures LOVE! Love your neighbour as yourself as James is speaking of?
Rom 3:27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law [which is fulfilled by love].
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling;
Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
It is plain and elementary principles of Christianty.
Let each be convinced in THEIR own mind.
Heb 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
————–
Hi kenrch,
Where have I taught as my own doctrine such things?
Or have I rather shown what is written and you have made assumptions and drawn conclusions not based on what I have said?This is what you said in another thread about understanding water baptism.
” Hi k4c,
Are you saying that we don't need water baptism?
I experienced the Holy Spirit and had the fruits of the Spirit right after water baptism! No one laid hands on me untill later on in my walk. Someone said what I experienced was the manifestion of the Spirit. All I know was that I was high and full of piece for some time afterward. Just a wrong (not evil) thought and I was under conviction not even knowing what conviction was! For the first time I experienced another voice in my head besides my own. I know that they had some people baptized only in water and didn't have the experience I had (Acts 19:3-6). I was and still am a completely new man. Not wanting to do the things I did before. I had to tell everyone that it was all true Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit was all true! They would say they believed that. I would always say and still do: “How would youl like to know it”! If anyone around me would curse my spirit would, for lack of a better word shrink inside me and still does. The only thing that was different when I was baptized in the Spirit was the talking in my spiritual language. If I attended a church or was talking to a brother or sister my spirit would and still rises, being rejuvenated in The Holy Spirit. Where two or more are gathered there Jesus will be in our midst (Matt. 18:20).
I don't understand it but that's the truth!
Knowing that I was born again right after baptism, I can't agree that water baptism is not necessary.Why was Jesus baptized and the Holy Spirit entered Him. Did Jesus have his own human spirit? ummm… that's a thought! “
If it was essential to you why do you now seem to teach it is an optional extra for others?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2006,21:00) Hi kenrch,
Where have I taught as my own doctrine such things?
Or have I rather shown what is written and you have made assumptions and drawn conclusions not based on what I have said?This is what you said in another thread about understanding water baptism.
” Hi k4c,
Are you saying that we don't need water baptism?
I experienced the Holy Spirit and had the fruits of the Spirit right after water baptism! No one laid hands on me untill later on in my walk. Someone said what I experienced was the manifestion of the Spirit. All I know was that I was high and full of piece for some time afterward. Just a wrong (not evil) thought and I was under conviction not even knowing what conviction was! For the first time I experienced another voice in my head besides my own. I know that they had some people baptized only in water and didn't have the experience I had (Acts 19:3-6). I was and still am a completely new man. Not wanting to do the things I did before. I had to tell everyone that it was all true Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit was all true! They would say they believed that. I would always say and still do: “How would youl like to know it”! If anyone around me would curse my spirit would, for lack of a better word shrink inside me and still does. The only thing that was different when I was baptized in the Spirit was the talking in my spiritual language. If I attended a church or was talking to a brother or sister my spirit would and still rises, being rejuvenated in The Holy Spirit. Where two or more are gathered there Jesus will be in our midst (Matt. 18:20).
I don't understand it but that's the truth!
Knowing that I was born again right after baptism, I can't agree that water baptism is not necessary.Why was Jesus baptized and the Holy Spirit entered Him. Did Jesus have his own human spirit? ummm… that's a thought! “
If it was essential to you why do you now seem to teach it is an optional extra for others?
Well I certainly didn't lie that is what happened when I was baptized I received the Holy Spirit.Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter says:
1) REPENT:
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
That is the first thing I did and if I would have died I would have died According To Scripture in the new covenant of the Lamb.2) I was baptized in water
3) That's when I received the Holy Spirit
Where did I say that baptizem wasn't important?
You Nick believe had I died before I was able to be baptized in water I would have never been saved. Is this true or not?
“What you have said”?
You teach what I believe is unscriptural but won't stand on what you teach. Nick you won't say anything. I have asked you over and over If you die before water baptizem will you be saved? You won't answer! Yet this is your belief and teaching is it not?Do you think you can play the shell game with God!?! Slowly tring to change the subject and trying to get the light off yourself and on me. I welcome the light I have nothing to hide!
Where does scripture say you must be “born'again'of water” in order to be saved?
I confessed Jesus. The next week I was baptized in water and received the Holy Spirit. But had I died in the middle of the week I would still have been saved. This is what I have been saying for (seems like) months.
And for months I still disagree with you even though that is not the popular thing to do! I serve no man but God only.
“Why was Jesus baptized and the Holy Spirit entered Him. Did Jesus have his own human spirit? ummm… that's a thought! “
You are right Nick! That is a thought! Did Jesus have to be born again of water as you preach? He was baptized to receive the Holy Spirit not get saved! The gift of the Holy spirit comes after we are saved.
Was Jesus saved before He received the Holy Spirit?
Again does receiving the Spirit come from works?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
“If it was essential to you why do you now seem to teach it is an optional extra for others”?
Where did I say that it was essential for me to be baptized in order for salvation. After I was baptized I received the “Gift” of Holy Spirit that is scriptural , Acts 2:38.
Either stand on your teaching or admit you were wrong. Admit you were wrong! Bet that sends chills up and down your spine.
Is this all you could find on me Nick? LOL Again if you want me out that bad then just say so you don't have to reserch everything I ever said hoping to find something. Do You?Hi Kenrch,
Rom 8
“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
We are not in charge of any aspect of our salvation-God is.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2006,09:38) Hi Kenrch,
Rom 8
“And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
We are not in charge of any aspect of our salvation-God is.
Just answer my questions. But you won't.We are not in charge of any aspect of our salvation-God is.
Well gee Nick I didn't know that! LOL!
What about your teaching and about you doing a research trying to find dirt? And where does scripture say “you must be “born 'again' of water”? Where does it say that if you have faith and believe in Jesus but are not able to get to water that you are not saved?
Answers please!Hi kenrch,
I do not think your testimony is dirt.
Can you show me one example in Acts where water baptism did not quickly follow a decision to believe?
Look at how God's chosen vessel, Paul, was directed by Jesus.Acts 9
” 6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do…..….. 10And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
11And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
13Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.”
Rom 10
” 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”
The Word must be preached.
Men must obey that gospel.Jn 3
“5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “Hi kenrch,
Your words
“” Hi k4c,Are you saying that we don't need water baptism?
I experienced the Holy Spirit and had the fruits of the Spirit right after water baptism! No one laid hands on me untill later on in my walk. Someone said what I experienced was the manifestion of the Spirit. All I know was that I was high and full of piece for some time afterward. Just a wrong (not evil) thought and I was under conviction not even knowing what conviction was! For the first time I experienced another voice in my head besides my own. I know that they had some people baptized only in water and didn't have the experience I had (Acts 19:3-6). I was and still am a completely new man. Not wanting to do the things I did before. I had to tell everyone that it was all true Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit was all true! They would say they believed that. I would always say and still do: “How would youl like to know it”! If anyone around me would curse my spirit would, for lack of a better word shrink inside me and still does. The only thing that was different when I was baptized in the Spirit was the talking in my spiritual language. If I attended a church or was talking to a brother or sister my spirit would and still rises, being rejuvenated in The Holy Spirit. Where two or more are gathered there Jesus will be in our midst (Matt. 18:20).
I don't understand it but that's the truth!
Knowing that I was born again right after baptism, I can't agree that water baptism is not necessary.Why was Jesus baptized and the Holy Spirit entered Him. Did Jesus have his own human spirit? ummm… that's a thought! “
I am trying to find some consistency between your testimony and you new theories about salvation. We see how God guided your steps, smoothed the path for you and then how His blessings followed your obedience.
He did not allow any obstacles to impede His plan for you. No earthquakes or hurricanes, car accidents or heart attacks came between you and His will.
But now you seem to be having doubts on behalf of others and questioning what you have done and saying was it all really necessary and what if they were not able to obey.If God smoothed your path is He so small to you that you still think He cannot do the same for others who have listened to the gospel and want to follow Jesus?
We must be careful to leave the detail to God as that is faith in action for us lest we ourselves become stumbling blocks to others.
Can you show me one example in Acts where water baptism did not quickly follow a decision to believe?
Look at how God's chosen vessel, Paul, was directed by Jesus.What was that word yiou used Nick “followed” what if the person could not have followed?
hi kenrch,
The world of whatifs is not a world of faith.2 Corinthians 1:20
For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.2 Corinthians 1:18
But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2006,23:07) hi kenrch,
The world of whatifs is not a world of faith.2 Corinthians 1:20
For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.2 Corinthians 1:18
But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no.
The world of whatifs is not a world of faith.“Whatifs”? Their is a young solider at war he confesses Jesus then catches a bullet and dies. Is he saved?
The solider had no chance to be baptized or do any works.
Well Nick is the young solider saved ?
Just answer the question according to your teaching. Can't you do that?
Hi kenrch,
You need to find an oracle to answer your questions for you.
You waste your time trying to pose puzzlers here.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2006,19:13) Hi kenrch,
You need to find an oracle to answer your questions for you.
You waste your time trying to pose puzzlers here.
Nicky, Nicky,Just answer the question according to your teaching. Can't you do that?
Hi kenrch,
You need to find an oracle to answer your questions for you.
You waste your time trying to pose puzzlers here.Oh! Oh! Are you going to get ugly again?
Let me help you. According to your teachings the young solider is NOT saved because he was NOT baptized AND did no works before he died.
This IS what you teach isn't it?
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