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Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 31 2006,11:12) Yes
We are right now seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus according to scripture.
We are told the body is dead because of sin, so the body is in need of redemption, the Holy Spirit baptism is the earnest of this.
Yet although the body is dead because of sin, we who believe on the name of Jesus Christ have (present tense) passed from death unto life.
So even though the full reality of it will only kick in at the ressurection. We already have the promise of it by the Word of God, so it cannot fail to happen. We already can rejoice in the hope of it. Already we are risen in Him and already seated in heavenly places, that's the way I understand it.
Hi Malcolm,
Rebirth is not just of the Spirit but is of water AND the Spirit.The listeners to Peter in Acts 10.44 were baptised in the Spirit.
But what was the response to Peter at this unusual sovereign action of God? If baptism in water was not required before God for salvation and baptism in the Spirit was sufficient, he would not have said what he did.
Acts 10 27f
“'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptised who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did can he?' And he ordered them to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ”Absolutely you must be baptised in water, it is symbolic of the death of the flesh, it is the formula given by Peter from God in Acts 2:38. But as seen in the example you just gave the order of events is not fixed.
PUT ANOTHER WAY:
1. Many hymns were sung by various people great and small unto the Father, YHWH the Almighty. I have often cited Rev 15:3f which tells of the Song of Moses and of Lamb in worship of the Father. Below is a song by David unto the Father.
1 Chronicles 16:7 On that day David first delivered this psalm into the hand of Asaph and his brethren, to thank YHWH:
8 Oh, give thanks to YHWH!
Call upon His name;
Make known His deeds among the peoples!
9 Sing to Him, sing psalms to Him;
Talk of all His wondrous works!
10 Glory in His holy name;
Let the hearts of those rejoice who seek YHWH!
11 Seek YHWH and His strength;
Seek His face evermore!…2. In Rev 5, hymns are sung to glorify the Lamb because he is worthy and the Father has exalted him and asked ALL in creation to bow before his Son and confess him as Lord.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
3. Here is an example of David being sung to by the people, in his own order, because he was worthy to receive such honor:1 Samuel 21:10 Then David arose and fled that day from before Saul, and went to Achish the king of Gath. 11 And the servants of Achish said to him, “Is this not David the king of the land? Did they not sing of him to one another in dances, saying:
'Saul has slain his thousands, And David his ten thousands'?”*
4. If Jesus is the Lord God Almighty, who then is greater, more exalted, worthier and honorable that he should sing hymns to?
Matt 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the *new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you IN MY FATHER'S KINGDOM.”
30 And when THEY had sung a hymn, THEY went out to the Mount of Olives.5. TRINITARIANS: Who does the Father sing hymns to?
MODALISTS: Does the Almighty sing these hymns to himself then in worship?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 04 2006,21:18) Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 04 2006,19:18) WHOSE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT? Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Since Romans 8:11 clearly states that the Spirit of HIM is the one who raised up JESUS and shall quicken US…. what happens to the spirit of the others in the conglomerate of three in one?
And for the Oneness group, how does this verse justify your doctrine if seemingly three manifestations are being expressed here at the same time when there is supposed to be only one being?
He he, it's not quite that simple Cubes. Here is Romans 8:11 in context:ROMANS 8:9-11
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.This passage raises a few questions for me:
1. Are the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ synonyms? If so, why??
2. Or, are two different Spirits in view here? The spirit of Him who was crucified and that of Him who raised Him?
Good points cubes,
The verse quoted by Is 1.18 shows that Paul used the phrases interchangeably. Romans 8 is replete with different expressions of the same.The Spirit of God
The Spirit of ChristThey are one Spirit
The Spirit is not dividedAs also
The Spirit
The Holy Spirit
The Spirit of truth
My Spirit and His Spirit
The Spirit of the Lord
The Spirit of grace
The Spirit of gloryChrist had his own will and his own spirit which departed from him at his physical death. But he was never separated from the Spirit of God, which in him is called the Spirit of Christ, which raised him, and is shared among those in his body.
It is thus that scripture says
“We shall come to you and make our home in you”Amen, Nick.
Ferris had a similarly good way of explaining it in one of the threads also…maybe the Trinity thread.Amen, Nick.
Ferris had a similarly good way of explaining it in one of the threads also…maybe the Trinity thread.Hi Cubes,
God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
Surely scripture means what it says unless that is not possible.
That is commonsense.Some people introduce all sorts of nonsense under the pretext that you can allegorise anything. Others hide behind a smokescreen of saying we cannot understand God and then present entirely illogical and unrealistic teachings.
I love wisdom. The most simple form of wisdom is commonsense, such that even children will grasp. And the truth is meant to be for them too. There are deeper things too that it is not surprising that we mess up on but they too can be unravelled, at least in part, by the use of biblical revelation and commonsense.
Right, Nick:
Below is another way in which Jesus clearly states that he is NOT Almighty GOD, nor a component of Almighty God!
Mark 12:24 Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore *mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, HOW GOD SPOKE to him, saying, 'I AM THE GOD of Abraham, THE GOD of Isaac, and THE GOD of Jacob'? 27 HE IS NOT THE GOD of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
According to this passage as well as the countless others, according to Moses' testimony…, Jesus is certainly not the God who is his own son or a Trinity. Such a doctrine is not taught anywhere in God's word!
If we err, let us err on the side of plainly spoken, straight forward language where we speak as Jesus speaks using his own language, identifying him in relationships as he himself defines!
In the biblical verse above (Mark 12:24f) and all the rest, it would be ridiculous but less so to say that Jesus claims to be Moses than to say Jesus claims to be God Almighty or a Triune God! After all, Jesus came as a man and a prophet and was killed as a Son and messenger of the Most High God.
Who anoints and seals GOD? Whose seal does he bear?
Of Christ, the Son of God, it is written:
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: .for him hath God the Father sealed.
Compare to us:
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Any counter scriptural verses to invalidate this truth?Task to Trinitarians, modalists etc: Please show that Christ is the original source of the holy spirit and that he did not in fact receive this from his Father and as Trinity God, he needs no anointing or seal.
Or
Show that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has at any single time been anointed or sealed by another!
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
According to the final word in scripture, has anyone seen GOD? Is Jesus GOD Almighty or any component of him?
1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
2 Corinthians 2:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Let’s quote Jesus:
John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, *”Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who *has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes *in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life.John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Testimony of other disciples:
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1 Timothy 6:14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Trinitarians and Modalists: Do you not have to reason scripture away to explain this one too?
Another gaping hole in the water-logged Trinity Ship. Get off people, while there's still time. Seek the One God of heaven and earth and boldly approach his throne through his only begotten Son, Yeshua.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
The Punishment of SamariaTrinitarians often cite this verse as one of their proof texts.
IF as they tell us, “each person of the Trinity is distinct so that the Father is NOT the Son and the Son is NOT the Father…”
Well then, we all agree that the Father is not the Son, nor the Son, his Father. And How! We also agree that Is 9:6 speaks of the Son, except to the Trinitarian, who also believes that this verse proves that Jesus is the Almighty God of heaven and earth!
Due to their distinctiveness (sorry if this is not proper grammar!):
1. The Father CANNOT be the Child born or the PRINCE of peace for that is the Son.
2. The Everlasting Father of Is 9:6 can therefore NOT mean “Our Father who is in Heaven,” since it refers to the “distinct Son,” by Trinitarians own admission.We have only ONE Father in heaven, Jesus told us. And there is only ONE “only begotten son.”
So here, we have a problem: Two “distinct persons” called “Father” = two Fathers. Do the Math.Which of the two persons/fathers is the real Father then? And doesn't that blur the lines of distinction that you speak of [when convenient].
And if the Son is the Father here, then doesn't that also make the Son's Father, the “Only Begotton Son” too?
Where are the “Distinct persons”?
Feels very much like gluey fly trap stickiness to me….
Following are excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Quote http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
… The force of this passage is decisive. That “the Father” and “the Son” are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive.
Quote (Cubes @ July 29 2006,12:33) Following are excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Quote http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
… The force of this passage is decisive. That “the Father” and “the Son” are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive.
Cubes,
You're on a roll brother. It's funny how we have to disprove a doctrine that is not even proved by scripture. The Trinity is assumed, but far from poven.Quote (Sultan @ July 29 2006,21:18) Quote (Cubes @ July 29 2006,12:33) Following are excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Quote http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
… The force of this passage is decisive. That “the Father” and “the Son” are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive.
Cubes,
You're on a roll brother. It's funny how we have to disprove a doctrine that is not even proved by scripture. The Trinity is assumed, but far from poven.
Amen,It's a bit like the hypothesis of evolution (mistakenly termed theory) which is not based upon any real solid evidence, yet is held as absolute truth even in the face of the glaring contradictions that are seen in recent discoveries of genetics and microbiology.
Unfortunately most of the so-called scientists whose influence holds sway on the opinions of men are very superstitious, refusing to abandon their beloved tenets of faith – no matter how well the evidence to disprove them is presented.
Instead of taking a rational approach they prefer to invalidate any arguements against their beloved teaching of evolution by marginalizing it and putting the label of religious superstition upon any who would attempt to set the record straight.Kinda reminds me of the reaction you get from staunch trinitarians who are quick to label any contrary teaching as heresy and to support this with the same old tired arguements based on very tenuous (so-called) evidences or proofs that have in fact been already disproved repeatly by many witnesses using a great body of scripture to support it.
Sigh – when will men ever learn? ever learning never able to come to the knowledge of the truth…
There seems to be some confusion regarding the following verse among Trinitarians as to who the True Eternal God is:
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jesus to the rescue!
John 18:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.Jesus is the Gate and Way TO the Father, not the destination except in so far as we shall ever be together with him in the Father. For if he were the destination, would the 24 elders not have said the following:
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.- 1Jo 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Hi cubes,
It is just that they KNOW trinity theory is 'truth' and they are on a constant search for any scriptural slants that can strengthen their case so they can 'prove' what they 'know' to others.Of course that is scriptural abuse.
It puts a traditional teaching actually above scripture
and
uses scripture to try to justify it
instead of searching scripture to find the truth in the first place
which true servants would do.Quote (Sultan @ July 30 2006,02:18) Quote (Cubes @ July 29 2006,12:33) Following are excerpts from the Catholic Encyclopedia: Quote http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another. Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.
… The force of this passage is decisive. That “the Father” and “the Son” are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive.
Cubes,
You're on a roll brother. It's funny how we have to disprove a doctrine that is not even proved by scripture. The Trinity is assumed, but far from poven.
Yes, Sultan, Malcolm and Nick:For sure the Trinity Doctrine is anti YHWH and anti Yeshua! and there is no end in the scriptures that outright refute and reveal it to be the sham that it is.
1. If there is no shadow of turning in God and he is the same forever,
2. if Jesus Christ –the same yesterday, today and forever– is that very God as they claim
3. Then how do modalists and trinitarians they explain the following verse?Jhn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are].
Whose is the name that is being made known?
And in whose ultimate name are we being kept? He is God.If they are the same God what need is there to make this statement? Jesus doesn't have a split personality for he cast out such demons! e.g. the gardarine.
Anyhow, if being “in his humanity” he didn't have that name of which he spoke, then he could not come by it and still remain the same yesterday, today and forever– not without changing intrinsically. Concepts which are anti Christ.
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