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Quote (t8 @ June 03 2011,03:36) There was a big bang for no reason and was preceded by nothing. It then became everything, spawned life and understood itself. As crazy as that is
You have not established that as crazier than asserting celestial conspiracy theories of Imaginary Sky Friends.Stuart
I don't see it that way Stuart. To me it defies reason to believe we are the product of random chance. Our DNA is a specifically complex code that is read AND OBEYED by the cell. Proteins and enzymes somehow know their function. Our cells have self-repairing capability. What’s guiding these intricate, highly coordinated and biologically meaningful movements? This in not the work or random, unguided forces. Neither is our consciousness. I think you must know this intuitively. Once you deduce that we are the product of design then it's also logical to assume that our designer would have revealed Himself to us. So it's then a matter of narrowing the candidates.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 03 2011,21:46) I don't see it that way Stuart. To me it defies reason to believe we are the product of random chance. Our DNA is a specifically complex code that is read AND OBEYED by the cell. Proteins and enzymes somehow know their function. Our cells have self-repairing capability. What’s guiding these intricate, highly coordinated and biologically meaningful movements? This in not the work or random, unguided forces. Neither is our consciousness. I think you must know this intuitively. Once you deduce that we are the product of design then it's also logical to assume that our designer would have revealed Himself to us. So it's then a matter of narrowing the candidates.
The mistake you make, whether intentionally or not is to think of this as “random”. It isn't. If you are criticising that as a strawman of a scientific position, and that is the basis for your beliefs on origins, then perhaps it would be appropriate for you to rethink.Gravity is not random, and that is the mechanism by which stars and planets, and indeed matter appeared.
Mutation is random, but natural selection from the variety of mutations available is not random either.
Using the word “code” actually means nothing. It is a code, but so what? It is a logical fallacy to conclude that it was written with intent, it wasn't.
It looks to me like you are putting forwards the argument from personal incredulity. But just because you can't believe it does not mean it didn't happen. Neither do I see why something you “think intuitively” should necessarily carry any particular weight. Why should it if it is wrong? Humans are really poor at developing a comprehension of probability, our intuition on that subject is notoriously poor. And I think that is relevant in this case. It appears many god believers use chance arguments without doing the maths to back up their claims.
So, indeed if it is some kind of celestial conspiracy theory that applies, tell me how that claim can be distinguished from any crackpot's nonsense. How is it falsifiable? What is a designer? What EXACTLY did it do?
Stuart
Anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done, and may in the end be our greatest contribution to civilization. (Steven Weinberg)
Mr. Weinberg is referring to all religions, not specifically Christianity.
Tim
If you have God in your life while pursuing scientific knowledge and practical application of such knowledge without the shackles of religious dogma that is a good thing for you are still part of the activity ennobles mankind and glorifies God.
Quote (Wispring @ June 10 2011,02:25) If you have God in your life while pursuing scientific knowledge and practical application of such knowledge without the shackles of religious dogma that is a good thing for you are still part of the activity ennobles mankind and glorifies God.
The word “god” constitutes a religiously dogmatic shackle.Science says go where the evidence points. What evidence unambiguously points to “god”?
What IS a god?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
The dogmatic shackles you have in your mind are the ones you put there yourself. Seek and you will find Stu. If you don't seek; you won't find. If you don't believe there is anything to find you won't seek it. I have already communicated to you all I have to offer. I know that a relationship with any living intelligent being is a two-way street. It's not for me to tell you what to build the street out of. Where to build it. How to build it or to what destination you want the street to take you. Do you see me telling you that you have to adhere to and accept any or all of judeo-christian doctrines, concepts and beliefs? No you don't. I simply believe Christ Jesus is who he says he is and have accepted him as my friend, brother and spiritual teacher. He doesn't teach me the things of physical science. He teaches me the things of non-physical spirituality and about how to conduct myself in my relationship with God and my fellow man.
With Love and more love,
WispringWispring
Quote The dogmatic shackles you have in your mind are the ones you put there yourself.
Indeed. I try to eliminate them where I can identify them. Could you say the same?Quote Seek and you will find Stu. If you don't seek; you won't find. If you don't believe there is anything to find you won't seek it. I have already communicated to you all I have to offer.
If that is all you have to offer, then all you have to offer is religious platitudes. What do they mean?Quote I know that a relationship with any living intelligent being is a two-way street.
Isn’t that pretty common knowledge?Quote It's not for me to tell you what to build the street out of. Where to build it. How to build it or to what destination you want the street to take you. Do you see me telling you that you have to adhere to and accept any or all of judeo-christian doctrines, concepts and beliefs? No you don't.
Apparently I have the alternative option of being posthumously dug up, judged for the amount of compulsory love I invested in your Imaginary Friend (or for my “works”, whatever that means), found wanting, and permanently destroyed by fire. So in what sense have you NOT told me I should believe in your conspiracy theory?Quote I simply believe Christ Jesus is who he says he is and have accepted him as my friend, brother and spiritual teacher.
Assuming that Jesus actually did exist, how can you possibly know with any confidence anything he said? In regards to the relationships you claim, I think you should be using the past tense for a person who died nearly 2000 years ago.Quote He doesn't teach me the things of physical science. He teaches me the things of non-physical spirituality and about how to conduct myself in my relationship with God and my fellow man.
What is “non-physical spirituality”? In relation to how the mind works, I don’t think there is such a thing. As for your relationship with a god, that will have to remain your understanding only, as you still have not said what a god is.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ June 03 2011,18:15) Quote (t8 @ June 03 2011,03:36) There was a big bang for no reason and was preceded by nothing. It then became everything, spawned life and understood itself. As crazy as that is
You have not established that as crazier than asserting celestial conspiracy theories of Imaginary Sky Friends.Stuart
That is a confession from you that you indeed believe that.And you have the cheek to laugh at the belief in a creator.
Scripture says it is a fool that believes in no God. And you admit that you believe there was a big bang for no reason which was preceded by nothing. It then became everything, spawned life and understood itself.
I rest my case.
Are there any other Atheists or is this the best argument they can come up with?
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 04 2011,22:32) Anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done, and may in the end be our greatest contribution to civilization. (Steven Weinberg)
Does that include the religion of Atheism? Because that too is a belief system, or is that somehow exempt?In essence, science is a perpetual search for an intelligent and integrated comprehension of the world we live in.
Comelius Bernardus Van Neil.I like that. It would of course mean that Atheism is not science.
t8Quote (t8 @ June 11 2011,21:18) Quote (Stu @ June 03 2011,18:15) Quote (t8 @ June 03 2011,03:36) There was a big bang for no reason and was preceded by nothing. It then became everything, spawned life and understood itself. As crazy as that is
You have not established that as crazier than asserting celestial conspiracy theories of Imaginary Sky Friends.Stuart
That is a confession from you that you indeed believe that.And you have the cheek to laugh at the belief in a creator.
Scripture says it is a fool that believes in no God. And you admit that you believe there was a big bang for no reason which was preceded by nothing. It then became everything, spawned life and understood itself.
I rest my case.
Are there any other Atheists or is this the best argument they can come up with?
You are still dodging by resting your case before you have established that Big Bang cosmology and evolutionary biology are crazier than an Imaginary Friend having itself killed to impress itself after writing a book about unicorns and talking snakes.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ June 11 2011,21:20) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 04 2011,22:32) Anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done, and may in the end be our greatest contribution to civilization. (Steven Weinberg)
Does that include the religion of Atheism? Because that too is a belief system, or is that somehow exempt?
As previously explained to you, atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.Stuart
Quote (t8 @ June 11 2011,21:27) In essence, science is a perpetual search for an intelligent and integrated comprehension of the world we live in.
Comelius Bernardus Van Neil.I like that. It would of course mean that Atheism is not science.
t8
I see you have stopped reading your own quotes.Stuart
Being surprised at the fact that the universe is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being surprised at how well it fits its hole
Douglas Adams
Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in
proportion to their readiness to doubt.H.L. Mencken
Quote (t8 @ June 11 2011,21:20) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 04 2011,22:32) Anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done, and may in the end be our greatest contribution to civilization. (Steven Weinberg)
Does that include the religion of Atheism? Because that too is a belief system, or is that somehow exempt?
Not believing in god
is no more a religion than not believing that purple fairies exist is a religion. How can not believing in something be a religion?Quote (Stu @ June 11 2011,22:03) As previously explained to you, atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. Stuart
That is bull dust.Not believing in God is like not believing in life outside of Earth or life on other planets.
It actually requires proof to not be considered a belief.Simple as that.
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 12 2011,01:20) Not believing in god
is no more a religion than not believing that purple fairies exist is a religion. How can not believing in something be a religion?
Not believing in Dark Energy is a belief just as not believing in God is. By using the purple fairy example, you distract from the part where non-belief is actually a belief too, when there is no proof.It is a belief if someone believes that there is no life on other planets for example. You cannot disprove that there is no life on other planets, so it is a belief pure and simple.
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