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Quote (CLIO-PATRA @ Dec. 23 2009,01:23) Quote from Ron …
How was Paul: Self Appointed?Yahshua had appointed 12 apostles and trained them, after Judas committed suicide – Matthias was chosen ….there is only 12 apostles mentioned in Revelations – as the world believes on this false apostle .. if he is so great why is he not mentioned in a positive way by scripture – on the contrary he is warned about – intelligence should speak that a man who gives 3 different accounts of what if it was true must have been a spectacular experience cannot get his story straight. This is just one example of many.
That the men travelling with Paul, stood speechless, hearing the voice, but seeing no one. Acts 9 :7
That the men travelling with Paul, saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one who was speaking to Paul. 22 : 9
That the men travelling with Saul saw the light and all fell down. 26:12There was a criteria for being an Apostle and Peter states it loud and clear: Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection
These are the words of Yahshua John 5:30 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. There is another who testifies in my favour, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.
Just on biblical basis alone …. Shaul was not a witness to the resurrection and he had no witnesses to come forward to state that his vision was true! … Where does that leave Paul? All he ever did was testify about himself ….
Paul lying and giving the impression he was a witness to the resurrection of Yahshua.
1 Cor 15:7-8 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
2 Cor 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which YHWH hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
1 Cor. 15:9:10 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all….
there are many more passages….
Note what Yahshua says: John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.JOHN 1:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true
JOHN 1:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
JOHN 1:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth
JOHN 1: 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
In 2 Corinthians 11:1-12, Paul is manic in his own defence, and in his vigour is clear what his opponents’ charges against him are. Central is that his overweening conceit has distorted his thinking, that he is a foolish boaster, and Paul sarcastically accepts the charges to reply to them. Among the charges he attempts to refute in 2 Corinthians are:
1. his boasting is unbounded (10:8,13,15;11:23)
2. he is insane (stronger than “foolish”) with boasting (12:11)
3. he is deceitful (12:16)
4. he did people wrong (7:2;12)
5. he is unreliable (1:17-18)
6. he is weak (10:1;11:21)
7. though clever, he admits he is no speaker (11:6)
8. he has no personal presence (10:1,10)
9. he can achieve nothing with worldly weapons (10:2f)
10. his measure is false (10:13)
11. his experience or evidence is dubious (10:15)
12. he alters God’s word (4:2)
13. he hides his true message (4:3)
14. He preaches himself (4:5)
15. He denigrates Jews (11:23f) but boasts of being one (11:22).
His defence exacerbates and illustrates the accusations. The “pillars” at Jerusalem had the authority of Christ, and few scholars disagree, so Paul just defies them. Plainly he was not appointed by Christ as an apostle but says he is no less than those who were because of claimed visions that no one else can confirm—Christians cannot resist anything that cannot be verified!The pseudo-Clementine writings give the attitude of the Ebionites, the Jewish Christians who emerged from the residue of the Essenes after the Jewish wars. Paul in these works is identified with Simon Magus. He is the enemy, the antiChrist! He was a pseudo-apostle who taught apostasy from the law of Moses and a gospel of lies. This Ebionite work vigorously defends the original chosen apostles of Jesus. Indeed, a thirteenth apostle is as impossible as a thirteenth month in a year. Peter is shown as upholding the principle expressed by him in Acts when a replacement was chosen to replace Judas—apostles had to bear witness to Jesus in his lifetime when he was teaching and preaching his gospel, the earthly Jesus! A vision was subjective. No one else could verify it, so it could have been a boast, an illusion, or even a satanic trick. Christ, alive for over thirty years and ministering for several years with twelve apostles and a crowd of other disciples and followers, could not have been a boast, a trick or a vision. Those who witnessed Christ in action did in the presence of the others, so they all automatically verified each other. It could not apply to a lone man who could make any outlandish claims that he liked, and did.
The ministry that he ‘stole’ and appointed himself was given to Peter a true apostle of Yahshua – Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Peter makes I clear that it was by his mouth the gentiles would hear the gospel. That left 11 others to help him if needed. One has to ask oneself why Paul?Luke was mentored by Shaul and obviously utterly convinced of his apostate ministry – just like millions of souls before us and many will be after us!
How was Paul: A Liar?
Paul mostly misquotes the Hebrew scriptures or twists them an example of many is Ep 4:8 ….he gave gifts unto men … is a serious misquote Shaul ‘Paul’ of Tarsus says: Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
David the Psalmist says: Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for (among/from) men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].
This misquote has been the cause of much deception and has caused millions to follow wrong teaching of Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,…. This is utterly against what Yahshua taught in Matthew 23:8 But you may not be named Teacher: for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers.
Just in case you might be wondering what GIFTS Yahweh received among men:
Exodus 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering. 3 And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass, 4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, 5 And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood, 6 Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense, 7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate. 8 And let them make me a
sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it….How was Paul: A Coward?
I think it is important here to mention how Yahshua taught his apostles not to worry when they were arrested and to appear before the courts – governors and kings …..
Mark 13:11 “When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit
LUKE 12;11 “When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”
Matthew 10:19 “But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. 20 “For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.Acts 25: 9-12 …But Festus, wishing to do the Jews a favor, answered Paul and said, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and stand trial before me on these charges?” 10 But Paul said, “I am standing before Caesar’s tribunal, where I ought to be tried. I have done no wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know. 11 “If, then, I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar.” 12 Then when Festus had conferred with his council, he answered, “You have appealed to Caesar, to Caesar you shall go.”
So according to Yahshua’s words HIS disciples would be told what to say in such a time by the Spirit of Yahweh – as you see he was offered to stand trial in Jerusalem …. So he obviously did not know of the promises made to Yahshua’s disiples ……and preferred the cop out of going to Ceasar – incidently Paul’s pal Epaphroditus was Nero’s secretary….ACTS 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus….
This sounds noble and brave if not downright boastful, but watch what transpires. Paul's arrest and how the Gentiles had to save him from the hands of the Jews in Acts 21:30-ch 23:22. After this he was sent to Felix to be protected from the Jews. Ch. 23:23-ch. 24:27 There he stays for some time while Felix procrastinates dealing with the issue. Then Festus comes along and is compelled to do something about Paul and asks Paul a question.
But Festus, wanting to do the Jews a favor, answered Paul and said, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and there be judged before me concerning these things?” Then Paul said, “I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know. For if I am an offender, or have committed anything worthy of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.” Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, “You have appealed to Caesar? To Caesar you shall go!” Acts 25:9-12
Caesar!!! Of all the people to seek justice from, Paul opts for appealing to the likes of Caesar Nero! You know…, that blood thirsty tyrant who murdered untold numbers of innocent people including his own mother! And Paul says that this is where he “ought to be judged”! This is the height of hypocrisy for Paul in light of the fact that he had previously instructed the Corinthians not to seek justice from the unrighteous. All of 1 Corinthians 6:1-11 is telling… here are the highlights.
“Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints?… If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?… Now therefore, it is an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another, Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be defrauded?” 1 Corinthians 6:1,4,7
Paul couldn't even practice what he preached. And what ever happened to, “I am willing to die in Jerusalem for Christ”? It was a statement of willingness to be a martyr and “accept wrong”. Paul tried to explain to Festus that he didn't deserve to die because he had done nothing wrong. What martyr ever thought he deserved to die? Can anyone imagine Yahshua saying to Pilate, “I don't deserve to die. I appeal to Caesar for justice”? Of course not! And what is just as absurd is that Paul said he was willing to go to his death if he did deserve it! How many individuals who know they deserve death are perfectly willing to go quietly to their execution? This entire picture that Paul has painted is stood on its head! True martyrs, like Yahshua, go quietly. The guilty at least protest, if not scream, all the way! It was the grandest act of cowardice Paul could have made in light of the fact that he had bragged he was willing to die as a martyr.How was Paul: A Blasphemer?
Paul would have you believe that 'his' gospel was the only one – to the extent that he cursed Yahweh and Yahshua , celestial beings or anyone who contradicted his gospel – considering that Yahweh was the author of the true Gospel … Paul's gospel which differs totally from the gospel His Son Yahshua preached which was about repentance and entering into the KINGDOM OF YAHWEH – you will find nowhere in the synoptic gospels saved by grace or justified by faith … only in Paul's false gospel. If you read Paul's epistles with your eyes open you will see his slanderous accusations of the true apostles … even likening them to angels of light which of course is satan. So we have here a situation of no going back – and committing the unforgivable sin of attributing to satan the work and power of Yahweh.
Pauls reasoning is: “He is not a false apostle, the true apostles are. He does not change God’s words, they do. He does not accept payment, they do. Just in case his visions of Christ are not impressive enough he has been to the third heaven! Hellenistic “pneumatics” made claims like this to uphold their claim to the secret knowledge of gnosis. It shows Paul is a Gnostic or is appealing to Gnostic allies in the Corinthian church against the representatives of the mother church in Jerusalem.”
Paul argues that his ecstatic visions are superior to personal knowledge of the incarnated God. The chosen apostles show he is unworthy because he had persecuted them when they were being midwife to the new born church. Had Paul been more successful, there would not have been a church! Paul felt the impact of this accusation strongly and boasted in argument (1 Cor 15:8) that God’s grace was responsible, and he had worked harder than the apostles had.How was Paul: A Twister of Scripture?
This is like a bubbling stew with lots of ingredients … and in answering these questions is like pulling bits out of the stew here and there – the whole of this false apostle's life was a mess and the damage done to mankind incaluable … however he does have a purpose … the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares is revealing in the light of Paul's false teaching- there are two gospels .. Yahshua's based on eternal life and Paul's mystical, gnostic based on Mitherism, and his version of eternal life. A gospel of death – you will NOT find Yahshua talking about his death in the gospels … his death is mentioned but it is not the be all and end all. And it is not His gospel message – following Him and obeying him and entering into the Kingdom through keeping His fathers commandments and entering i
nto eternal life is His thrust and the same of His apostles. Yahshua NEVER started a new religion – Paul is responsible for the birth of the fragmented and ugly monster called Christianity (Xianity) … by there fruits you shall know them …. Paul has twisted the truth beyond recovery, following his gospel is a wide road to hell. Without his false gospel we have lost nothing for he is the author of lies, deceit and apostacy. A very clever and dangerous satanically inspired man. His deception and twisting the truth is spectacular. We have been warned about him – do we take any notice … I guess each individual can answer that? He certainly has deceived the whole world!!How was Paul: An Anti-Christ?
I think the concept of an anti christ is often misunderstood … it is not someone who is against it is someone who comes along side and insidiously changes things – a fifth columinst – who pretends to be part of something while destroying it. Paul has changed the meaning of truth beyond redemption. He is the serpent in the gospel and to drink from this poison chalice is a certain death. One cannot follow both gospels … Paul's gospel will divide the sheep from the goats. He abrogated the Laws of Yahweh and put his own law of Christ in its place. Sadly there is no redemption in his gospel – we are not saved by grace or justified by faith … as he would have you believe. You can throw all your toys out of the pram, which I did when I discovered the horror and evil deception I had been in for some 30 odd years. IT IS SHOCKING TO DISCOVER THIS. I do not underestimate the shock – it knocked me over and shook my 'comfortable pauline world' however like any trauma it was horrible going through it … but the ground does stablise and it throws you totally into the arms of the eternal Father, our creator and magnificent Yahweh. Instead of being theologically wise … a child like trust and faith is required and my gratitude for finding out before it is too late. My eyes were opened and my ears opened … I ask myself a million times how I never saw the truth when it has been in front of me all the time. You won't unless your eyes are opened – and my prayer for all who follow Paul and many of us do/did thinking we are following Yahshua (Jesus). The Laws of Yahweh have not changed …. even before Moses was given them written by the finger of Yahweh in stone, the commandments were still kept. They are nothing new to mankind, The biggest act of love is Yahweh giving us them – they are His rod and His staff. Our security and discipline.
Who was Paul an Apostle to? What are the options?
“I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven”He preached a false gospel which has ensnared millions:
Shaul ‘Paul’ of Tarsus is – “THE SERPENT IN THE GOSPEL….”He put himself up as ‘god/messiah’
and preached that the law had been abrogated
Gal 3:22-25 Rom 4:14 Rom 7:6 (to many to mention)
He preached a false gospel
Rom 16:25 (to many to mention)
He invented a new gospel the just shall live by faith
Rom 1:17 and misquotes Hab2:4
He preached that we are saved by grace – without the law
Eph 2:5 Eph 2:8 Rom 11:5 Titus 2:11 (and others)
He abrogated the Torah and invented a new law – The Law of Christ
Gal 5:11-26 1 Cor 9:21 Gal 2:21 Gal 6:2 (and others)
He preached that eating food presented to idols was no big thing et al.
1 Cor 8:4
He created the ‘mystical body of Christ …’
Rom 11:4-5 Rom 12:5 1 Cor 12:27 1 Cor 10:16 Col 1:18 (to many to mention)
He preached that believers were the temple of the holy Spirit
1 Cor 6:19 1 Cor 3:16
He created an entirely new version of the “New Covenant”
Truth: Luke 22:14 -20 Matt 26:29 Mark14:22-25
Paul’s 1 Cor 11:23 -30 1Cor 10:16-22
He invented the lie – there are none righteous
Rom 3:10
He plagerized others
1 Cor 13
He quoted pagan philosophers
Acts 17:27-28 1 Cor 15:33 Rom7:19 (and others)
He also cursed Yahweh and His Son Yahshua
Gal 1:8-9
He also stated that the Yahweh’s Law was a curse
Gal 3:10 Gal 3:13
He states that keeping the Sabbath and feast days are not necessary
Col 2:16-17
He accuses Yahshua’s apostles of being false apostles of Christ, deceitful workers
2 Cor 11:13
He accuses them of being satanic and posing as angels of light
2 Cor 11:14
He states that he became a father through his gospel
1 Cor 4:15
He handed people over to satan and murdered them
1 Tim 1:20 1 Cor 5:5
He said ‘follow me and MY gospel’
…(can the blind lead the blind)?
2 Tim 2:8 Rom 2:16 Matt 15:14. Only when your eyes are opened by Yahweh’s Spirit of truth to his horrendous false gospel do you see the massive abyss in front of you.
Shaul the Pharisee follows after his ‘father’ he is a liar, murderer and a deceiver – who will receive his just reward!Paul believed the crucifixion of Jesus for our sins was the crucifixion of the world, which would soon end. The new age is an age of the spirit, so a God’s words spoken as a man were irrelevant. Paul knew better than God. Paul maintained Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, glorified with the title Lord of God Himself, and sat in heaven on God’s right hand. The death of a sinless man atoned for human sin, so people could be magically righteous, and be eligible for entry into heaven.
Jesus, had not taught this.
Jesus’s teaching was no effortless magical cure for sin. His cure was repentance and strictly upright living until the world ended. A big effort was needed, but it was worth it. Salvation for Christ was not easy.
Paul made it as easy as a declaration of faith in Christ. Christians had a hard option offered by God, and an easy one offered by Paul. They took the easy one unconcerned what God thought of it.Why do you use the word “xianity”? The way you spelled it is popular among Secularist and athiests, and some Orthodox Jews.
Laziness really like Xmas I guess. There is so much more – truth is not always what we think it is …. however I would rather be in truth then the lie I was in for many years. However painful – it is worth it. For those who have never been challenged before – I know how you feel, incredulous that someone could say their beloved Paul is all that has been mentioned. I would have defended him with everything I had … hmmm until I saw him for what he is … trust me I know how you feel. It is ugly and being deceived is not pleasent … however do we have an option if we wish to have eternal life … there is much more that could be said – this is not even the tip of the evil of this false apostle has created. I do not take any pleasure in exposing this false apostle he was once my hero. However he must be exposed for what he is and souls snatched from his false gospel. If you disagree which you are entitled to do so – please don’t be personal and rude. I have spoken generally here and quite willing to debate and prove where I can that this Shaul of Tarsus is a false apostle. I have used the names of the Father and the Son as in the Hebrew Scriptures. As the beauty of it is that Yahshua means Yahweh saves. I no longer use the name Jesus or God as it has serious pagan ramifications – that is another discussion – BRING IT ON … BLESSING TO ALL AND SHALOM.
I am going to have to read this several times to digest all of it, then see if I have a response.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2009,08:32) Hi All Where do these people come from?
Peter himself spoke favorably of Paul!
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction“. 2 Peter 3:15, 16
This guy criticizes Luke, and then goes about using his writings to condemn Paul!
99% of his arguments are ambiguous at best!
For instance all the talk about Paul being a coward when History shows that Paul was beheaded in Jerusalem for his testimony of Jesus just as he had prophesied!
This we do know, that Paul warned us against deceivers in the last days…
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:1, 2Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Rom 16:17, 18
WJ
Seems to be a good response so far.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 23 2009,10:24) Quote (CLIO-PATRA @ Dec. 23 2009,12:06) Hi WJ …. hmmmm Your quote :For instance all the talk about Paul being a coward when History shows that Paul was beheaded in Jerusalem for his testimony of Jesus just as he had prophesied! Not correct WJ … Paul if beheaded at all was in Rome – history does say that he was beheaded by Nero … so I guess appealing to Ceasar was not in his best interest … specially as Agrippa said to Festus says he would have let him go if he (Paul) had not appealed to Ceasar.
Acts26:32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.
There you go WJ you can't win em all!! If he had not been such a coward and trying to save his own neck … he might have lived even longer being the great deceiver!!
It was James the brother of John the son of Zebedee who was beheaded in Jerusalem he was probably the first of the genuine apostles to die a violent death.
Would you be so kind as to tell me how to colour code please for the life of me I cannot fathom out how work with these buttons – Blessings all and Shalom.
My Apology!You are correct, a typo on my part. Paul was beheaded in Rome as a martyr for his testimony of Jesus.
You assume Paul’s appeal to Caesar was because he was a coward. Which makes no sense at all. Paul was a persecutor of the Church and witnessed the stoning of Stephen. He knew what risk he was taking for preaching Jesus since he was the biggest persecutor of the Church. Acts 8:1-4
Paul used his Roman citizenship to further the Gospel, and that was the reason for his appeal to Caesar so that he could bring the Gospel to Rome and to Caesar! Rom 15:16
He arrived in Rome c AD 60 and spent two years under house arrest.[6]
Irenaeus of Lyons believed that Peter and Paul had been the founders of the Church in Rome and had appointed Linus as succeeding bishop.[31] Though not considered a bishop of Rome, Paul is considered highly responsible for bringing Christianity to Rome.
Tradition has said that Paul was beheaded, likely at Tre Fontane Abbey (English: Three Fountains Abbey). By comparison, Peter was crucified upside-down. This account fits with the report from Acts that Paul was a Roman citizen and would have been accorded the more merciful execution.[dubious – discuss] Paul's death is commonly dated to c 60-62[32] or c 62-65,[6] or c 65-67,[33] in any case during the reign of Nero. Source
Quote (CLIO-PATRA @ Dec. 23 2009,12:06) Not correct WJ … Paul if beheaded at all was in Rome – history does say that he was beheaded by Nero … so I guess appealing to Caesar was not in his best interest … specially as Agrippa said to Festus says he would have let him go if he (Paul) had not appealed to Caesar.
Acts26:32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.
Read on my friend!And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, “Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him“. Acts 28:30, 31
Paul finished the course and what God had called him to do. His bonds were the means God used to preach the Word all over the then present world. Oh that’s right Jesus had told Paul this would happen!
WJ
PS
To see how to type for colors etc click on the reply button then scroll down and look at the text that has colors or Bold or what ever and that will give you an idea!
Quote Tradition has said that Paul was beheaded, likely at Tre Fontane Abbey Tradition is not fact.
Catholics do all by tradition, so should I put my faith in Catholicism?
Need more than tradtion here.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2009,15:02) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,09:50) Hi CLIO-PATRA: If the Apostle Paul is wrong regarding salvation being by “faith” so that it might be by grace, please tell me how then are we to be saved?
Love in Christ,
Marty
If you are saved by faith so that it might be by grace then please explain to me how a sacrifice was needed at all?
Sacrifice was never needed and was put in place for those who needed to be schooled.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2009,15:05) Hi BD,
We are not here to justify anything to intellectual rebels but to offer salvation in Jesus.
Atleast he called you intellectual.
😉Hi CP,
Do you always recollect everything exactly as you saw it?
Do you always repeat word for word your previous description?Hi CP,
God still sends apostles.[1Cor 12.28]
I am sure the stones would cry out if the message was contained.
Paul is the outstanding apostle of God whose words form much of the doctrine of the Church.
He is the obvious target for those who are only interested in building another useless human alternativeQuote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 24 2009,12:09) Hi CP,
God still sends apostles.[1Cor 12.28]
I am sure the stones would cry out if the message was contained.
Paul is the outstanding apostle of God whose words form much of the doctrine of the Church.
He is the obvious target for those who are only interested in building another useless human alternative
So now you're back with the Catholic Church? I guess seasons changeQuote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 24 2009,11:05) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2009,15:54) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,10:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,10:02) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,09:50) Hi CLIO-PATRA: If the Apostle Paul is wrong regarding salvation being by “faith” so that it might be by grace, please tell me how then are we to be saved?
Love in Christ,
Marty
If you are saved by faith so that it might be by grace then please explain to me how a sacrifice was needed at all?
Hi BD:Faith is believing that the Word of God is true, and so, the faith to which I refer includes the fact that Jesus is God's “Only Begotten Son and His Christ”, that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he was resurrected from the dead, and is now in his exalted position as head of the church at the right hand of God his and my Father.
The sacrifice is needed to wash away your sins when you come to God with a repentant heart through what He has done for you through this sacrifice, and also, to wash away your sins when you fall short of perfect obedience after you become a born again Christian.
This is what the Apostle Peter has to say:
Quote 1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 ¶ Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Love in Christ,
Marty
But what of the faith and salvation through grace before Christ?Paul uses these as an example as well.
Can you receive salvation by faith in God alone
James had something to say on that:Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. . . But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? . . For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:18,20,26
Hi BD:The sacrifice that God has provided washes away the sins of all who were striving to obey God in the OT and of all who come to God through Jesus in the NT. All will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ. It also washes away he sins of the two that did not die a physically but were taken into the heavens by God, namely, Enoch and Elijah.
Quote Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,16:05) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 24 2009,11:05) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 23 2009,15:54) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,10:51) Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 24 2009,10:02) Quote (942767 @ Dec. 24 2009,09:50) Hi CLIO-PATRA: If the Apostle Paul is wrong regarding salvation being by “faith” so that it might be by grace, please tell me how then are we to be saved?
Love in Christ,
Marty
If you are saved by faith so that it might be by grace then please explain to me how a sacrifice was needed at all?
Hi BD:Faith is believing that the Word of God is true, and so, the faith to which I refer includes the fact that Jesus is God's “Only Begotten Son and His Christ”, that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he was resurrected from the dead, and is now in his exalted position as head of the church at the right hand of God his and my Father.
The sacrifice is needed to wash away your sins when you come to God with a repentant heart through what He has done for you through this sacrifice, and also, to wash away your sins when you fall short of perfect obedience after you become a born again Christian.
This is what the Apostle Peter has to say:
Quote 1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pe 1:22 ¶ Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Love in Christ,
Marty
But what of the faith and salvation through grace before Christ?Paul uses these as an example as well.
Can you receive salvation by faith in God alone
James had something to say on that:Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. . . But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? . . For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:18,20,26
Hi BD:The sacrifice that God has provided washes away the sins of all who were striving to obey God in the OT and of all who come to God through Jesus in the NT. All will be resurrected as part of the body of Christ. It also washes away he sins of the two that did not die a physically but were taken into the heavens by God, namely, Enoch and Elijah.
Quote Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
Love in Christ,
Marty
They were taken without any Sacrifice at all, God wants Mercy not Sacrifice according to Jesus.Hi CP
The book of Enoch, once cannon in the early church, still is today in the Ethiopian church…
(Part 8 Chapter 48:1-7)
2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Hosts, And his name before the Ancient of Days.
3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created, Before the stars of the heaven were made, His name was named before the Lord of Hosts.
4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, And he shall be the light of the Gentiles, And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.
5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Hosts.
6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him, Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Hosts hath revealed him to the holy and righteous; For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous, Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Hosts: For in his name they are saved, And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.
All who dwell on earth … the light of the gentiles, so isnt Paul the one who took the Gospel of Jesus to the gentiles which became the worldwide church , (despite all its probs) or not i dont know?
And this good news about the coming kingdom will be preached unto all the earth and then the end will come.
Hi,
One of the reasons folk attack Paul is that they misunderstand his master. Jesus was sent to the jews and spent much of his ministry explaining their law to them. Some think that these explanations are part of his teaching to the church thus forming a semi jewish OT law church. But this is not so and to learn most of the doctrines of the new church you must listen to the apostles who were sent to the gentiles.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 25 2009,06:04) Hi,
One of the reasons folk attack Paul is that they misunderstand his master. Jesus was sent to the jews and spent much of his ministry explaining their law to them. Some think that these explanations are part of his teaching to the church thus forming a semi jewish OT law church. But this is not so and to learn most of the doctrines of the new church you must listen to the apostles who were sent to the gentiles.
So Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel and not the whole world, right?So when he says I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through me, wasn't he talking to the people he was sent to?
That would make some of what Paul taught make sense and hence Paul stating it was “his” Gospel and that he has become the father in faith to those that followed him.
Paul seemed to raise Jesus to the level of God making himself the messiah of the gentiles, does that sound about right?
Hi BD,
Jesus was sent there and spoke of many things including the kingdom.
He is filled with light and truth the light of the world and salvation is in him.
Paul was lit by Christ and given his message to speak and brought many to that light.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 25 2009,07:53) Hi BD,
Jesus was sent there and spoke of many things including the kingdom.
He is filled with light and truth the light of the world and salvation is in him.
Paul was lit by Christ and given his message to speak and brought many to that light.
So Paul became the light and the way to the gentiles, right?Quote (bodhitharta @ Dec. 25 2009,09:13) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 25 2009,07:53) Hi BD,
Jesus was sent there and spoke of many things including the kingdom.
He is filled with light and truth the light of the world and salvation is in him.
Paul was lit by Christ and given his message to speak and brought many to that light.
So Paul became the light and the way to the gentiles, right?
Hi BD,Why do you shoot down Paul's writings out of one side of your mouth, and then with the other “quote” them to further your beliefs?
Why is that?
Ed J
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